An Observation.......

[Foreigner]

"They asked Jesus for mercy and suggested the pigs and Jesus gave them permission to enter them." - Aspen


-- If you (honestly) take a step back you will see you are comparing humans who have died in their sin and demons.
Apples to oranges.



"There are a few words that are only used to talk down to people - 'tripe' is one of those words." - Aspen

-- And you have never used condescending or insulting words to address others on this board, right?




"Well, I don't have a with your faith including activities not supported by God" - Aspen

-- Linguistically challenging as this statement is I am going to assume you omitted the word "problem."
I would challenge you to point out one single solitary faith-based "activity" I participate in not supported by God. Please be specific.



"And my political views should not influence your opinion about my faith." - Aspen

-- Really?
Politics indicate values. Values indicate beliefs. Beliefs indicate faith. Faith is benchmark of your relationship with God.
A person's politics are a direct reflection of their faith.

You don't want to be judged on your politics, but you use your political position to criticize Christians who stand on the Word.
You have made the unfair accusation multiple times that Christians are speaking out of hatred when they point out the Bible's position on homosexuality.
I can speak from experience that the majority of times I have ever commented on what the Scriptures say about homosexuality has been because a homosexual has approached me and DEMANDED to know how I could possibly believe what I do.
I share out of love and explain that Jesus loves them and wants the very best for them and in return I am called names and cussed at.

I am curious though. I know you have spoken on this before, but statements since then have caused me to wonder:

Do you believe that people who engage in and no not repent from homosexual activities will be welcomed into heaven?





"I share Lewis' view about Hell." - Aspen

-- More power to you. Your mind is made up and you don't wish to be confused by the facts:

"I am not saying Hell will be a vacation spot, but it will certainly be better then the horror of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God." - Aspen

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me." "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."-- Matt. 25:

-- It was such a 'horror' that they stood there asking for clarification, waiting on a response, hoping that His explanation will make them understand or give them a loophole.

Sure doesn't sound like the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" that they would be experiencing in Hell....does it?

They were "unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God"....carrying on a conversation with Him, no less.

-- Bottom line? Matt 25 flies in the face of your "unredeemed spirit in the presence of a Holy God" statement.

It really is that simple.

 

[TexUs]

"interfaith"??? So are Catholics actually admitting they have a faith different from that of Christianity now?

Hell is a mercy. Explain why the pigs chose Hell over life near Christ?

They didn't have a choice in the matter... And furthermore you can't prove they went back to hell, all we know is the pigs ran off the edge of the cliff. The meat bags of the pigs probably died, but we don't know where the demons ended up. This seems to be a seriously flawed assumption of yours.

 

[Martin W.]

If the Lord was to take a minute to look down on our infighting , how do you suppose he would react?

Shame on us.

 

[aspen]

If the Lord was to take a minute to look down on our infighting , how do you suppose he would react?

Shame on us.

Indeed. Of course, Catholics accept other Trinitarians as Christian and part of the Body of Christ - other people here do not believe we are Christian and therefore refuse to admit they are guilty of infighting.

 

[Martin W.]

Indeed. Of course, Catholics accept other Trinitarians as Christian and part of the Body of Christ - other people here do not believe we are Christian and therefore refuse to admit they are guilty of infighting.

I know many Catholics who are Christians.
I know many Christians who are Christians
I even know some Protestants who are Christians.
I am a Trinitarian as well.
I confess to being guilty of infighting sometimes .
But I have never been to a Confessional
Does that still count ?

Who am I ??
If I do not belong to your group Have I missed out ??
If I do not belong to any of the other groups, have I missed out ??
What must I do to be saved ?
Do I need a religious label ?
If so , which one.
There are millions of them.
It can sure get complicated out there.

 

[Selene]

I know many Catholics who are Christians.
I know many Christians who are Christians
I even know some Protestants who are Christians.
I am a Trinitarian as well.
I confess to being guilty of infighting sometimes .
But I have never been to a Confessional
Does that still count ?

Who am I ??
If I do not belong to your group Have I missed out ??
If I do not belong to any of the other groups, have I missed out ??
What must I do to be saved ?
Do I need a religious label ?
If so , which one.
There are millions of them.
It can sure get complicated out there.

There is a difference between "religion" and "Christianity." Christianity is not a religion. In other religions, people try to reach God because they want to form a relationship with God. Christianity is different. In Christianity, it is God who reaches down to us because God wants to have a relationship with us. All we have to do is be open to Him and accept Him.

This is Christmas. God came down to meet us in the form of man so that He can speak to us and form a relationship with us. This is Christianity. In religion, it is the opposite. It is man trying to reach up to God.

Merry Christmas.
Selene

 

[aspen]

Martin - if you have a relationship with Jesus Christ and He is teaching you how to love Him and your neighbor more fully - you are being transformed in to a citizen of Heaven from the inside out.

If you believe in the Trinity - the correct nature of God, you have an orthodox Christian view of God, as well.

If you want to pursue God like He has been pursuing you - you can do so by studying the Bible, as Protestants rightly preach, and participating in the sacraments like Catholics promote. It is up to you - I believe the Bible and the sacraments enhance my relationship with God because it allows me to respond to God's love in a special way.

 

[Selene]

Martin - if you have a relationship with Jesus Christ and He is teaching you how to love Him and your neighbor more fully - you are being transformed in to a citizen of Heaven from the inside out.

If you believe in the Trinity - the correct nature of God, you have an orthodox Christian view of God, as well.

If you want to pursue God like He has been pursuing you - you can do so by studying the Bible, as Protestants rightly preach, and participating in the sacraments like Catholics promote. It is up to you - I believe the Bible and the sacraments enhance my relationship with God because it allows me to respond to God's love in a special way.

The one thing that I admire most in our Protestant brothers is that they study the Bible. When I attended a Protestant church, I noticed that everyone there brought their bibles except me. Catholics never bring their bibles to Mass because it is not needed. We follow the Missal. The biblical readings are the same in every Catholic Church all over the world. From my personal experience, many Catholics I know don't even read the Bible. They just leave it on their book shelves. :blink: However, like you I believe the Bible and the sacraments enhance my relationship with God. That is why I attend Mass everyday.

 

[aspen]

The one thing that I admire most in our Protestant brothers is that they study the Bible. When I attended a Protestant church, I noticed that everyone there brought their bibles except me. Catholics never bring their bibles to Mass because it is not needed. We follow the Missal. The biblical readings are the same in every Catholic Church all over the world. From my personal experience, many Catholics I know don't even read the Bible. They just leave it on their book shelves. :blink: However, like you I believe the Bible and the sacraments enhance my relationship with God. That is why I attend Mass everyday.

I am not sure if I already posted this, but I was teaching Catechism to 7th graders, one year on Halloween and a new kid was in the class. The kid new every Bible related question I asked - I learned later he was a Protestant whose mother didn't want him trick-or-treating so she sent him to church.

 

[marksman]

I'm not saying it isn't going to happen, I'm just saying that there's not too much reason to assume it's going to start right now.

This is not the main point of my post but the truth is that the persecution has been happening for at least 10 years already. Under "rights" laws, christians are being called to task by atheists and homosexuals in particular for believing in God and the bible. Some have spent time in jail. You ain't seen nothing yet.

My main point is that this thread has a hidden agenda. You will note that the example provided is James Dobson disciplining his dog. Such a puny attempt to malign a man chosen and blessed by God to defend the integrity of the family as God sees it. With so many churches abandoning the way God designed the family and taking on board secular rhetoric, he deserves all the support he can get.

When the OP has achieved what James Dobson has, only then will he have any right to pass negative comment about him.

The other thing is that the poster is well know for starting threads for argument sake. Please don't get sucked in as it will end up no where.

 

[aspen]

This is not the main point of my post but the truth is that the persecution has been happening for at least 10 years already. Under "rights" laws, christians are being called to task by atheists and homosexuals in particular for believing in God and the bible. Some have spent time in jail. You ain't seen nothing yet.

My main point is that this thread has a hidden agenda. You will note that the example provided is James Dobson disciplining his dog. Such a puny attempt to malign a man chosen and blessed by God to defend the integrity of the family as God sees it. With so many churches abandoning the way God designed the family and taking on board secular rhetoric, he deserves all the support he can get.

When the OP has achieved what James Dobson has, only then will he have any right to pass negative comment about him.

The other thing is that the poster is well know for starting threads for argument sake. Please don't get sucked in as it will end up no where.

I am starting to understand what is happening here - there really is no room for discussion with some people. Any attempt to discuss openly about issues that have the potential to invite differing opinions is perceived as a 'hidden agenda' and a personal attack on individuals and a public attack on God and Christianity. Wow - it is hard for me to believe that people are unwilling or incapable of simply discussing ideas without feeling like they are being attacked and rallying other like-minded people (real christians) to defend the faith.

You guys must be exhausted ever since I started posting here - you have been fighting me the entire time, and I was just trying to have a discussion!

Maybe this is the reason people in the past were warned about discussing religion and politics at family gatherings - people are incapable of doing it without fighting - which is really sad because religion is my favorite topic. I like to discuss differences and similarities - I think it has the potential to promote understanding - but maybe that understanding is even more threatening than the disagreements.

Also, I always thought is was strange that - on other protestant boards I have posted on - that the most opinionated, conservative, angry person garnered the most authority. People would wait for him to start threads and end threads - to defy him was an act of war - no one dared to do it unless they were unfamiliar with the culture or they were a heretic. The point of posting was not to discuss - it was to agree.

I am really hoping that this board does not share the same culture. So far, I have noticed a greater amount of people who are willing to engage in conversation.

 

[marksman]

I am starting to understand what is happening here - there really is no room for discussion with some people. Any attempt to discuss openly about issues that have the potential to invite differing opinions is perceived as a 'hidden agenda' and a personal attack on individuals and a public attack on God and Christianity. Wow - it is hard for me to believe that people are unwilling or incapable of simply discussing ideas without feeling like they are being attacked and rallying other like-minded people (real christians) to defend the faith. et al.

Standard response. Avoid the issue raised. Adopt a holier than thou attitude. Express hurt at being questioned. Claim God is being maligned. Hope no one will notice the attempt at manipulating words to make him appear the aggrieved.

If we keep exposing the charade he will descend into hyperbole, sarcasm and ridicule as will his partner in the charade, Selene. if you don't believe me, check out the Catholics answering questions thread.

 

[aspen]

Avoid the issue raised.
Adopt a holier than thou attitude.
Express hurt at being questioned.
Claim God is being maligned.
Hope no one will notice the attempt at manipulating words to make him appear the aggrieved.


What is the issue?
I am not the person declaring an exclusive Christianity
I do not respond to rude, demanding posts
I am claiming that God is merciful
Wow - that is really some statement! I really am amazed - with the language you use when addressing Catholics - the mocking? the scoffing? And than you get to claim that I am just complaining for nothing? LOL. It is like an abusive spouse telling the person they are beating to stop crying!


If we keep exposing the charade he will descend into hyperbole, sarcasm and ridicule as will his partner in the charade, Selene. if you don't believe me, check out the Catholics answering questions thread.


Yeah, if you treat someone like crap for 27 pages, they are bound to lose it a few times. Keep trying to get rid of me marksman - it might work if you keep up the attack.

 

[marksman]

Yeah, if you treat someone like crap for 27 pages, they are bound to lose it a few times. Keep trying to get rid of me marksman - it might work if you keep up the attack.

I didn't think it would start as quick as this

 

[Selene]

I am not sure if I already posted this, but I was teaching Catechism to 7th graders, one year on Halloween and a new kid was in the class. The kid new every Bible related question I asked - I learned later he was a Protestant whose mother didn't want him trick-or-treating so she sent him to church.

I am not surprised that the kid who knew the Bible was a Protestant. That is the main thing I admire about them. They really study the Bible and they have Bible study. I have read the Bible when I was a kid. I never really liked the Old Testament then, and I often thought that the God of the Old Testament was different from Jesus (the God of the New Testament). My priest was the one who actually got me to see that the God of the Old and the New Testament are the same. I was reading the Old Testament the wrong way. :lol:

 

[TexUs]

So why don't you DO it?

 

[aspen]

Why do some people have such a problem with the Catholic Church making assumptions about who is in Heaven; yet having no problem at all when they, themselves speculate on who is in Hell?

 

[TexUs]

Why do some people have such a problem with the Catholic Church making assumptions about who is in Heaven; yet having no problem at all when they, themselves speculate on who is in Hell?

Assumption: premise: a statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn;
Speculation: guess: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence

[font="arial][size="2"]The difference, aspen, is speculation admits we could be wrong. The Catholic Church's smug and arrogant attitude of ASSUMPTION doesn't even take it into consideration.[/size][/font]

 

[aspen]

Assumption: [font="arial][size="2"]premise: a statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn;[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="2"]Speculation: [/size][/font][font="arial][size="2"]guess: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence [/size][/font][font="arial] [/font]
[font="arial][size="2"]The difference, aspen, is speculation admits we could be wrong. The Catholic Church's smug and arrogant attitude of ASSUMPTION doesn't even take it into consideration.[/size][/font]

When have you ever admitted that you could be wrong? You use absolute language and belittle everyone who disagrees with you. The only reason you see arrogance and smugness in the Catholic church because it is reflecting your own




When talking to a Mormon missionary, have you ever felt like you are being lead down a narrow path and if you answer any question that strays slightly off course, you are quickly redirected back to the path? The only difference between Mormons and Fundamentalists is that Mormons don't condemn you to hell for deviating from their false line of reasoning.