An Observation.......

[Foreigner]

"It sure seems like it when you count all the times Christians seem to lose their rights and discount all the times other groups seem to lose their rights." - aspen

-- There you go making things up again...
Unless you can actually provide a time when I have discounted a group that has lost rights they already had.
Please pony up (notice I am not holding my breath)




"The fact is, most of these "rights" are actually privileges mislabeled" - aspen

-- You certainly don't know your Constitution, do you?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

-- That is called a Right, not a 'privilege.' Please wise up.




"Also, where in the Bible did Jesus, Paul or Peter mention that Christians should get a "two way street?" - aspen

-- Where in the Bible did Jesus, Paul or Peter say that Christians shouldn't speak out about what they know to be sin?
It seems that you feel it is alright for homosexual groups to try to silence Christians but it is wrong for Christians to not support homosexuals.
Definition: double standard.




" it is sort of the same deal as the Bush tax cuts - if they are ever considered for repeal in the future, people are going to call it a tax hike rather than what it really is." - aspen

-- If they are repealed what happens to your taxes? Yup, they go up. Regardless of the agreement, reason, or motive they go UP. You are then paying more in taxes than you were before.

Translation: A tax hike

Economics 101 big guy.

 

[deprofundis]

-- There you go making things up again...
Unless you can actually provide a time when I have discounted a group that has lost rights they already had.
Please pony up (notice I am not holding my breath)

How is it worse to lose rights one already had than to never have been granted them in the first place? That's basically saying it was wrong for African Americans to resist slavery or women to campaign for the right to vote, because they never "lost rights they already had," they just wanted to be granted rights so that theirs were the same as everyone else's.

-- You certainly don't know your Constitution, do you?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

-- That is called a Right, not a 'privilege.' Please wise up.

What such law has been made? I certainly don't know of any.

-- Where in the Bible did Jesus, Paul or Peter say that Christians shouldn't speak out about what they know to be sin?
It seems that you feel it is alright for homosexual groups to try to silence Christians but it is wrong for Christians to not support homosexuals.
Definition: double standard.

I hear a lot of talk about homosexuals trying to "silence Christians," but I've personally seen little evidence of it. People continually refer to some sort of ethereal hate crime legislation that "may be" passed, but which has no name and of which they can produce no record.

 

[Foreigner]

"How is it worse to lose rights one already had than to never have been granted them in the first place?" - De

-- De, either focus or stay out of our conversation.
Aspen accused me of discounting times when certain groups have lost their rights. I have never done that so I asked for him to support his statement. Your African American comparison is worthless because no one was talking about that. Focus.


"What such law has been made? I certainly don't know of any." - De

-- Christians are being restricted even without the law. Told what they can't write about their faith in papers in school or sing a religious song as their solo because of "the seperation of church and state." Those are the most obvious and basic but there are scores of other examples. No law needed. Try again.


"Their existence is considered a crime in three states." - De

-- Wow! It should be easy to provide proof of that then. I can hardly wait to see it...



" hear a lot of talk about homosexuals trying to "silence Christians," but I've personally seen little evidence of it." - De

-- Then you are intentionally being obtuse.
The efforts to track down those who donated to the campaign in CA to have marriage defined as a man and a woman or even voted along those lines is a classic example. They tracked down these people, posted their names online and spread them in their communities, harassing them with threatening phone calls, going to their homes, showing up at their places of business to announce boycotts, etc. etc. etc.


"They may seem secularly focused to us, but that doesn't change the fact that "Christ" is in the name of Christmas, and it is a Christian holiday, even if President Grant made it a federal holiday and it may seem secular to us." - De

-- Grant signed it into law AFTER it was ratified by both houses of Congress. Let's not try to make it look like it was just his doing.
And the reason there is "Christ" in the name "Christmas" is because it celebrates His birth. Don't like it, work to change the law.
You still get a day off from work and time with your family, even if you're an atheist.

And I understand your need to keep changing focus, but your original complaint was city funded parades to support Christmas.
I pointed out that those are secular parades. Thus your need to change the focus yet again.


"Maybe so, but considering that it took a couple hundred years for any change in sodomy laws to start occurring, I hardly think that's particularly noteworthy." - De

-- You summed up your whole position nicely. Gays "gaining rights" is bad because it is not happening fast enough.
Christians losing their rights is no big deal.


"Basically, beyond the separation of church and state being enforced, I don't see any restrictions being put on Christian faith or practice." - De

-- And that means your blindness is by choice.
There is nothing in the Constitution about "Seperation of Church and State." What the Constitution does say is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

There are several excellent books that do nothing but detail specific examples of Christianity being curtailed and outright attacked.
The best I have read so far is "The Criminalization of Christianity" by Janet Folger.
Specific examples and every single event listed is referenced so you can check and see for yourself.

But I know you won't even look at it. It is tough to read anything with your head in the sand.

 

[deprofundis]

Most of the examples so far (school assignments, projects, and school-sponsored events) simply reflect the establishment clause (the first half of that quote you use twice but only ever mention the latter portion of), which essentially prevents anything which could be considered endorsing a religion in state sponsored activity. Schools ban papers based on faith because it would create an unfair grading environment and open up the school to discrimination lawsuits if the student was poorly graded. Christians aren't "losing rights," they are simply no longer allowed to exercise rights that they never had, but the prohibition of which the state largely ignored until recently. The people of this country have every right to freedom of religious expression, the state is expressly prohibited from any religious expression. Similarly, gays aren't "gaining rights," the law is just coming to actually reflect the equality guaranteed them by the constitution; sodomy laws and the prohibition of same-sex marriage have been unconstitutional since the fourteenth amendment (for reasons I explained in another thread), it was simply that nobody in power cared that they were until quite recently.
I'll read the book, although there isn't a copy in my university library so it may be some time before I can get my hands on a copy.

As for cases of personal harassment, I am sure this happens, although the persecution of Christians, while wrong, is not so institutionalized and worrisome of that of homosexuals. I guarantee more violent have crimes had homosexual than Christian victims, for instance. One group of gays did this, several different large, international Christian organizations routinely harass not even homosexuals, but their grieving families. Neither one is right, but Christianity as an institution should perhaps look at itself before seeking to condemn others for smaller versions of the same persecution it has enacted.

 

[Foreigner]

""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

-- Your argument shows you are reading this wrong. The seconds half in and of itself shows that government respects the presence of religion.
According to your standard, though, the fact that they ALLOW religious practice shows they are are respecting the "establishment of religion." You are of course incorrect.
Allowing someone to sing a Christian song for their recital, speak of Jesus during an acceptance speech, or include reference to Him in a paper is not "Establishing" a religion.
It is allowing "the free exercise thereof."
Be it ignorance of the law or intentional misinterpretation, it does not allow for restricting religious freedoms of the individual. Source: United States Constitution.



"Christians aren't "losing rights," they are simply no longer allowed to exercise rights that they never had" - De

-- Not according to the First Amendment



"Their existence is considered a crime in three states." - De

-- I searched on this assuming I would find exactly what you said. It may indeed be my poor research skills, but multiple attempts via both Google and Bing to find anything to support his statement have failed.
Do you perhaps have another source/process I could use?



"I'll read the book, although there isn't a copy in my university library so it may be some time before I can get my hands on a copy." - De

-- I commend you for this action. Doing so informs you and keeps me honest. It shows I am not bending the truth or exaggerating anything to make a point.



"the prohibition of same-sex marriage have been unconstitutional since the fourteenth amendment" - De

-- Says who? Did I miss a Supreme Court ruling on this?



"One group of gays did this, several different large, international Christian organizations routinely harass not even homosexuals, but their grieving families." - De

-- "Several different large" groups? Really? If you could share a couple of those organizations and what they did specifically that may add some credence to this claim.
Since there are "several" then it shouldn't be too difficult.



"Christianity as an institution should perhaps look at itself before seeking to condemn others for smaller versions of the same persecution it has enacted." - De

-- There is nothing you (or anyone else here) has provided to support this specious claim. Again, some specifics would add credence.

 

[deprofundis]

- Your argument shows you are reading this wrong. The seconds half in and of itself shows that government respects the presence of religion.
According to your standard, though, the fact that they ALLOW religious practice shows they are are respecting the "establishment of religion."

Sure, it does. My statement has nothing to do with respecting religions, it has to do with making laws with respect to religion, which includes religious expenditures covered in the state budget or religious activities undertaken with public funding, which is where schools often come in.

You are of course incorrect.

Huh, because the precedent of constitutional law seems to agree with me.

Allowing someone to sing a Christian song for their recital, speak of Jesus during an acceptance speech, or include reference to Him in a paper is not "Establishing" a religion.

This is probably true, however writing papers on religion is a bad idea to let students do; if a student writers a paper based on a different faith than the teacher's, and receives a bad grade, the school could very well be in for a nightmare of litigation.

It is allowing "the free exercise thereof."
Be it ignorance of the law or intentional misinterpretation, it does not allow for restricting religious freedoms of the individual. Source: United States Constitution.

Besides which, you are allowed to exercise your religion as freely as you want. You can write about God all you want, it's just not necessarily acceptable material for a school assignment.

-- Not according to the First Amendment

Read about the "establishment clause," and what it means, legally.

-- I searched on this assuming I would find exactly what you said. It may indeed be my poor research skills, but multiple attempts via both Google and Bing to find anything to support his statement have failed.
Do you perhaps have another source/process I could use?

Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas all have anti-homosexual "conduct" laws, which are legally different enough form the now-unconstitutional "sodomy" laws to continue to exist and be somewhat enforced. I believe there have been at least two arrests in Oklahoma based on them. I would just look up keywords on the state legislature's website. I remember seeing Virginia still enforcing their law, too, but I never looked into it.

-- Says who? Did I miss a Supreme Court ruling on this?

Essentially, several; Lawrence v. Texas declared discrimination against consensual adult sex of any kind illegal, several Supreme Court decisions have determined marriage to be a right, and the famous striking down of the "separate but equal" ruling makes it impossible to say marriage is between a man and a woman, since this gives both sexes separate (and arguably not even equal) rights to marriage; you can't give a man the right to marry a woman without giving a woman the same right.

-- "Several different large" groups? Really? If you could share a couple of those organizations and what they did specifically that may add some credence to this claim.
Since there are "several" then it shouldn't be too difficult.

Focus on the Family and the following of a significant number of televangelists, all of which have at some point in the past articulated the sentiment that AIDS is God's punishment on homosexuals. Admittedly, funeral protests seem to be rarer than I had believed, but I guess I grew up right around the middle of most of them. Nonetheless, I still very seriously doubt the numbers are even close when it comes to who has more harassed whom.

 

[Martin W.]

I have observed that Christians hide behind avatars and are afraid to be identified. It is a very common practice.

It is when they tell me they are boldly proclaiming the word of God , and they alone are going to stand up to Antichrist , that I am unable to reconcile the two.

You cannot take a stand and hide at the same time. It is impossible.

 

[aspen]

I think these man-made standards are funny.......

You have to use your real name online

No religion is legitimate unless you are willing to argue about differences

Any others out there?

 

[Foreigner]

"I have observed that Christians hide behind avatars and are afraid to be identified. It is a very common practice." - Martin W


-- You "observed." I actually laughed when I read this. Your observation skills are very limited, it would seem.

As I mentioned when you said this before, I regularly go to a number of other chat/discussion sites including several political and educational sites.

Most use - for lack of a better word - 'nicknames' instead of their real name.

With the number of loons on the Net willing to expend great efforts to stalk and harass those that disagree with them it seems only prudent.

What really amuses me is that fact that in giving (what we are forced to assume is) your real first name and first letter of your last name you feel you are showing some sort of higher level of openness and honesty.

That assumption goes out the window when you consider the millions of people in the English-speaking world who likely have the combination.

Real bravery there, big guy

 

[amadeus]

As many of you know, I am interested in human behavior and when combined with religious belief, I get even more interested. One phenomenon that has captured my attention lately is the presence of a Persecution Complex amongst certain religious groups of Christians and post-protestant churches. It appears that many Christians believe that the world is our enemy and committed to rob, control, and ridicule us as much as possible because of Jesus' name. Of course, there is some precedence for this belief because of the warning Jesus gave to His disciples before sending them out, but it cannot fully explain the complex I am referring to, which often manifests as a mindset of distrust, yet can go as far as anxiety and borderline paranoia. For instance, the very idea that I am even talking about this topic will be viewed as an attempt to ridicule and attack Christianity by some who read it.

Believe me ,my friend, the world is, or should be our enemy. To say otherwise, is to set aside a large portion of the NT [New Testament]. Your concern with people who have a personal problem with how they believe they are mistreated is not really a Christian only one, but a people, in general, one. How Christian [meaning a "follower of Christ"] are most of these of which you speak, no matter what label they may carry? Real followers of the Lord are not paranoid! They have receive "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the things of God and their focus when it is rightly directed should be, I would think, to improve their vison and their hearing to the point where they are always able to recognise His voice and to the point where they will be able to see Him no longer through a glass darkly, but face-to-face.

So what then is your real purpose in initiating this thread? Would you somehow construe it as something that will edify God's people or draw to God some of those who on the outside? How much did time did Jesus devote to analysing the problems of people? I think that He was more concerned with removing the obstacles which kept people separated from God.

Aspen: Anyway, the reason I am thinking about this issue today is because I recently read an account of Dr. Dobson attempting to teach his dog a lesson using a belt. Now this story can be found on the internet, sponsored by groups that are against cruelty to animals. This fact has apparently upset Dr. Dobson who recently reported that he was being attacked by the lunatic fringe. When I looked up the account, I was surprised to find that the story was not written by some lunatic fringe reporter who trapped Dobson into telling a story he never really wanted to share; instead the account was from one of his own books! So, Dobson is angry that his own words have put him in a bad light.

Ok....so this is fascinating to me that a person believes they have the right to express righteous indignation over information they has chosen to make public, after it is received poorly. This is certainly not what Jesus was talking about in His warning to his disciples. The strange thing is that I have run into the same thing on this board - I could reprint, word for word, a post that someone has written and when they read it - they report feeling attacked by me - but really it is due to their own words.....

Aspen: I think we really need to recognize this tendency in ourselves because if we are constantly looking for attack, how are we going to love the people who we are called to serve?

Finally, you have said something that may have an edifying purpose in the things of God. Of course, I would hope that somewhere and at some time you will also mention the means which God has provided for us to manifest the fruits of the Spirit! I will read on through the thread. Thank you for searching for something good!

 

[amadeus]

So am I Aspen. Very much so . I have been around a long time. I have studied people for a long time. I look for what is in their hearts and what their motives are. I look for the reasons why people do what they do.

I was blessed with a very high IQ , I was blessed with a tremendous ability to read and research , I was blessed with good intuitive skills for "reading people" . I was blessed to become a Christian in 1986. It was at that point I began to realize much of what we do has a spiritual component to it. eg: Holy Spirit , or no Holy Spirit.

Yes, indeed, God is involved in our lives long before we are aware of Him or really care about Him. When we receive and accept His call for the first time, He begins to open our eyes and our ears to what "thus saith the Lord". Then if we are sincere in our desire to please Him, we will learn to obey what we hear from Him. We will listen both to people on the Lord's side and to those opposed to His Way so as to hopefully be able to be better used of God when He wishes to use us.

Martin:I type the following slowly and carefully as a few summary points that I have come to observe.

Martin: .... there truly is a lunatic fringe in the animal welfare industry. They raise and desire huge amounts of money , very little of which they use toward protecting animals. They will open warm enclosures full of food to release thousands of animals to freeze and starve. They , and the media conveniently never mention the freezing and starving aspects . Why is that I ask.

Man is and always been a very selfish beast. When he moves away from selfishness this is the Spirit of God acting within him, whether he knows it or gives God any credit for it or not.

Martin:... but if James Dobson has his own words used against him on how he disciplines his dog , nearly everybody , including the media will bash him to no end. Why is that I ask.

All people have done things that were not at all pleasing to God. If they simply did that it would bad enough, but adding insult to injury, they are then, without making reference to their own errors, very quick to jump on a band wagon of people running down someone else. Jesus certainly recognised this when He spoke of first seeing to the beam in one's own eye before attempting to remove even the tiny mote from the eye of another.

Martin: ... I am a heterosexual , I have a white complexion , which means I am a minority in the world, I'm a western Canadian , who is a christian , votes conservative , smokes cigarettes , and I like Israel . I am continually discriminated against , mocked , laughed at , by most people and the media. Why is that I ask.

There is a saying in the world, "what so around comes around", or to quote scripture, "for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" [Gal 6:7]. We speak of being a minority, but was it not the WASPs [White Anglo Saxon Protestants] in the United States who led the way in reducing anyone not in their "class" to a second-class citizenship, or even to outright physical slavery, while speaking with their mouths of doing things in the Christian way? So now that they are reaping what they sowed, is there then to be a cry in the land of "persecution" against them? Have any of us reaped the fruits of the evil sowed by many of our forefathers?

Martin: .... But if I was colored , gay , vegetarian, had aids , belonged to an animal rights group , worshiped mother nature , and had the planet as my god , beleived I was descended from apes , valued animal life more than human life , I would be readily accepted by many people , including the media . People would go out of their way to give me good reviews. Why is that I ask.

You lump things together here as if they were all in themselves the only or the primary evil of mankind. Who or what are you defending? There is indeed evil in the world, but the "world" in this respect is certainly the flesh of men made from the dirt of the planet. None of us are outside of this! Jesus said:

"... Why callest thou me good? "...there is none good but one, that is, God..." Matt 19:17

Jesus recognised the evil that would, if it were possible, have directed His own flesh to sin. Simultaneously, He clearly identified the source of all that is really "good".

Martin: What used to be considered good , is now considered bad.
What used to be considered bad is now normal.

Surely you are not saying that things in these United States or anywhere else on this planet were ever in every point as God would have liked them to be!

Following is the verse to which you were apparently aluding with your words:

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20

Those words written in Isaiah were God's words, but I think that you misunderstand them and/or misuse them.

The "good" to which God via the prophet referred was Himself and His creation as it was here:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good..." Gen 1:31

The evil, on the other hand, was referred in Isaiah was the result of the perversion of God's creation brought about by man's wrongful choices. Joshua write briefly of the choices that man has here:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

When have men as a whole ever stopped choosing their own versions of the gods of the Amorites? Even Jesus never stopped man from pursuing his own ways which were opposed to God's Way. Jesus provided a Door, Himself, through which men could choose to walk, but more often they still choose the ways of darkness.

Martin: What has caused this change in the last 20 years or so ??? Did a bunch of people all get up one morning and decide to change black to white and white to black ??? I think not. Something else is going on.

It is invisible , it works slowly at first , it has a subtle influence and effect on people , and it appeals to the sinful side of man. It has gained great momentum , few obstacles remain.

I agree that things are getting worse, but do not white-wash the ways of all of our ancestors as if they were all overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer. If more than a small remnant of believers was always putting God first, we would not now be reaping the rotten fruits of the things which they sowed. If we sow in similar manner, then will not our childten also suffer from our misdeeds? The enemy is not invisible to those "eyes to see" of which Jesus spoke. If we look even with our natural eyes into the natural mirror, we will see the vessel, which contains the source of our all of man's problems.

Martin: They only real obstacle remaining are the few people who still have a measure of Holy Spirit that overrules sinful nature. They can preserve themselves but cannot stop the onslaught that sweeps everyone else away.

"Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD." Ezek 14:13-14

Martin: The world has taught us to quit caring and quit interfering and we have. Most of us could care less what anybody thinks about us. We know what they think , we know the author of their thoughts , and we recognize a losing team when we see it.

Yes, the Spirit of God in a man recognizes the evil where it is, for what it is, but are there not many who fail to recognise their own error because they have lost and not again received their love of truth?

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" II Thess 2:10-11

Martin: I no longer care what the losing team thinks of me. I do not have the time to be nice. Besides it never works any more.

It would be a huge task to fix all the messed up minds to properly address the Dobson-dog-belt issue.
Nearly impossible to fix a mind that wants to remain messed up. Dark spirits are clever when they get a foothold.
But we will still get blamed for everything. That I guarantee. It is part of the strategy. Observe carefully.

My opinion and observation Aspen. Thanks

Preserve yourself everybody. It only gets worse[/size]

Yes, it only gets worse. Our only Hope is in the Lord! God help us all!

 

[amadeus]

So am I Aspen. Very much so . I have been around a long time. I have studied people for a long time. I look for what is in their hearts and what their motives are. I look for the reasons why people do what they do.

I was blessed with a very high IQ , I was blessed with a tremendous ability to read and research , I was blessed with good intuitive skills for "reading people" . I was blessed to become a Christian in 1986. It was at that point I began to realize much of what we do has a spiritual component to it. eg: Holy Spirit , or no Holy Spirit.

Yes, indeed, God is involved in our lives long before we are aware of Him or really care about Him. When we receive and accept His call for the first time, He begins to open our eyes and our ears to what "thus saith the Lord". Then if we are sincere in our desire to please Him, we will learn to obey what we hear from Him. We will listen both to people on the Lord's side and to those opposed to His Way so as to hopefully be able to be better used of God when He wishes to use us.

Martin:I type the following slowly and carefully as a few summary points that I have come to observe.

Martin: .... there truly is a lunatic fringe in the animal welfare industry. They raise and desire huge amounts of money , very little of which they use toward protecting animals. They will open warm enclosures full of food to release thousands of animals to freeze and starve. They , and the media conveniently never mention the freezing and starving aspects . Why is that I ask.

Man is and always been a very selfish beast. When he moves away from selfishness this is the Spirit of God acting within him, whether he knows it or gives God any credit for it or not.

Martin:... but if James Dobson has his own words used against him on how he disciplines his dog , nearly everybody , including the media will bash him to no end. Why is that I ask.

All people have done things that were not at all pleasing to God. If they simply did that it would bad enough, but adding insult to injury, they are then, without making reference to their own errors, very quick to jump on a band wagon of people running down someone else. Jesus certainly recognised this when He spoke of first seeing to the beam in one's own eye before attempting to remove even the tiny mote from the eye of another.

Martin: ... I am a heterosexual , I have a white complexion , which means I am a minority in the world, I'm a western Canadian , who is a christian , votes conservative , smokes cigarettes , and I like Israel . I am continually discriminated against , mocked , laughed at , by most people and the media. Why is that I ask.

There is a saying in the world, "what so around comes around", or to quote scripture, "for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" [Gal 6:7]. We speak of being a minority, but was it not the WASPs [White Anglo Saxon Protestants] in the United States who led the way in reducing anyone not in their "class" to a second-class citizenship, or even to outright physical slavery, while speaking with their mouths of doing things in the Christian way? So now that they are reaping what they sowed, is there then to be a cry in the land of "persecution" against them? Have any of us reaped the fruits of the evil sowed by many of our forefathers?

Martin: .... But if I was colored , gay , vegetarian, had aids , belonged to an animal rights group , worshiped mother nature , and had the planet as my god , beleived I was descended from apes , valued animal life more than human life , I would be readily accepted by many people , including the media . People would go out of their way to give me good reviews. Why is that I ask.

You lump things together here as if they were all in themselves the only or the primary evil of mankind. Who or what are you defending? There is indeed evil in the world, but the "world" in this respect is certainly the flesh of men made from the dirt of the planet. None of us are outside of this! Jesus said:

"... Why callest thou me good? "...there is none good but one, that is, God..." Matt 19:17

Jesus recognised the evil that would, if it were possible, have directed His own flesh to sin. Simultaneously, He clearly identified the source of all that is really "good".

Martin: What used to be considered good , is now considered bad.
What used to be considered bad is now normal.

Surely you are not saying that things in these United States or anywhere else on this planet were ever in every point as God would have liked them to be!

Following is the verse to which you were apparently aluding with your words:

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20

Those words written in Isaiah were God's words, but I think that you misunderstand them and/or misuse them.

The "good" to which God via the prophet referred was Himself and His creation as it was here:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good..." Gen 1:31

The evil, on the other hand, was referred in Isaiah was the result of the perversion of God's creation brought about by man's wrongful choices. Joshua write briefly of the choices that man has here:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

When have men as a whole ever stopped choosing their own versions of the gods of the Amorites? Even Jesus never stopped man from pursuing his own ways which were opposed to God's Way. Jesus provided a Door, Himself, through which men could choose to walk, but more often they still choose the ways of darkness.

Martin: What has caused this change in the last 20 years or so ??? Did a bunch of people all get up one morning and decide to change black to white and white to black ??? I think not. Something else is going on.

It is invisible , it works slowly at first , it has a subtle influence and effect on people , and it appeals to the sinful side of man. It has gained great momentum , few obstacles remain.

I agree that things are getting worse, but do not white-wash the ways of all of our ancestors as if they were all overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer. If more than a small remnant of believers was always putting God first, we would not now be reaping the rotten fruits of the things which they sowed. If we sow in similar manner, then will not our childten also suffer from our misdeeds? The enemy is not invisible to those "eyes to see" of which Jesus spoke. If we look even with our natural eyes into the natural mirror, we will see the vessel, which contains the source of our all of man's problems.

Martin: They only real obstacle remaining are the few people who still have a measure of Holy Spirit that overrules sinful nature. They can preserve themselves but cannot stop the onslaught that sweeps everyone else away.

"Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD." Ezek 14:13-14

Martin: The world has taught us to quit caring and quit interfering and we have. Most of us could care less what anybody thinks about us. We know what they think , we know the author of their thoughts , and we recognize a losing team when we see it.

Yes, the Spirit of God in a man recognizes the evil where it is, for what it is, but are there not many who fail to recognise their own error because they have lost and not again received their love of truth?

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" II Thess 2:10-11

Martin: I no longer care what the losing team thinks of me. I do not have the time to be nice. Besides it never works any more.

It would be a huge task to fix all the messed up minds to properly address the Dobson-dog-belt issue.
Nearly impossible to fix a mind that wants to remain messed up. Dark spirits are clever when they get a foothold.
But we will still get blamed for everything. That I guarantee. It is part of the strategy. Observe carefully.

My opinion and observation Aspen. Thanks

Preserve yourself everybody. It only gets worse[/size]

Yes, it only gets worse. Our only Hope is in the Lord! God help us all!

 

[aspen]

Interfaith dialog is impossible on this site.

 

[aspen]

The more I describe God's mercy and compassion, the more angry people seem to get

 

[Duckybill]

The more I describe God's mercy and compassion, the more angry people seem to get

God's mercy is only for the few who repent.

"Few there be who find it."

 

[aspen]

God's mercy is only for the few who repent.

"Few there be who find it."

Right.......we are the only ones who have to show mercy to everyone......your God is vicious

 

[Duckybill]

Right.......we are the only ones who have to show mercy to everyone......your God is vicious

Who can force God to be merciful? You?

 

[aspen]

Who can force God to be merciful? You?

Why would you ask a question like that? God is merciful. I am not sure why you can not see it

 

[Duckybill]

Why would you ask a question like that? God is merciful. I am not sure why you can not see it

2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; [sup]5 [/sup]and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; [sup]6 [/sup]and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

 

[aspen]

2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; [sup]5 [/sup]and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; [sup]6 [/sup]and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

The merciful choice for the unredeemed.