An Opinion about rituals "in religions:"

[Mungo]

Yea, Okay. You bet! This is what blows my mind. You assume that your church leadership is incapable of making a mistake. Yes, Christ' church is infallible. But just because you ride under the same flag Christ handed to Peter does not mean you (i.e. the RCC) is flawless in its teachings. The RCC took this "claim to fame" and used it as an umbrella of protection to push anything it wants.

We are not taking here about making any mistakes at all. Yes the leaders of the Church can make some mistakes, and have done. But It cannot make a mistake in solemnly defining doctrines. God would prevent it and Jesus promised it. I believe what Jesus promised.

 

[Born_Again]

We are not taking here about making any mistakes at all. Yes the leaders of the Church can make some mistakes, and have done. But It cannot make a mistake in solemnly defining doctrines. God would prevent it and Jesus promised it. I believe what Jesus promised.

Okay. Go ahead, keep running in circles and stick with your default answer.... to everything.

 

[tom55]

Yea, Okay. You bet! This is what blows my mind. You assume that your church leadership is incapable of making a mistake. Yes, Christ' church is infallible. But just because you ride under the same flag Christ handed to Peter does not mean you (i.e. the RCC) is flawless in its teachings. The RCC took this "claim to fame" and used it as an umbrella of protection to push anything it wants.

Which Church do you, Born_Again, think has infallible doctrines or beliefs?

 

[Born_Again]

Which Church do you, Born_Again, think has infallible doctrines or beliefs?

See post #97.

 

[tom55]

I believe in the word of God. I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Great Commission.

I don't blindly follow a leader of a church and assume everything I'm told is correct. I put zero faith in a pastor. I test it against the word of God.

That's why Sola Scriptura doesn't work for the RCC. It allows the RCC to claim what is and is not correct. They invented their own Cop-out.

...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

When you, Born_Again, 'obey everything that He commanded', who's interpretation do you follow? For instance when He said at the Last Supper "Do this in remembrance of me". What is your interpretation of "this"? And do you follow that commandment?

You don't believe there is a Church with authority but Jesus said He will build a Church and to take our differences to The Church (which means The Church decides who is right and what to believe). He gave the Apostles the power to bind and loosen, forgive or not forgive men's sins. They were then commissioned to teach everyone else to obey and practice what He commanded of them. How are you obeying and practicing everything that has been commanded if you don't believe in a Church that has authority?

You say that you "don't blindly follow a leader of a church and assume everything I'm told is correct....... I test it against the word of God". Does that not make you the leader of your own church? You decide what is right and wrong according how YOU interpret scripture? The Apostles didn't even do that. They met together and discussed the issue before they made a decision for a proper interpretation. Are you a better interpreter of Scripture than the Apostles? Your theory makes you a church of one which is opposite of what scripture teaches.

Sola Scriptura doesn't work for the RCC because the theory of sola Scriptura is not in the bible and the RCC follows the bible. Sola Scriptura is not in the OT or the NT. It is a theory that is destroying Christianity because everyone thinks they can read the bible and come to their own correct interpretation when, as you know, scripture says opposite of that.

So how are you fulfilling the Great Commission?

 

[Born_Again]

...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

When you, Born_Again, 'obey everything that He commanded', who's interpretation do you follow? For instance when He said at the Last Supper "Do this in remembrance of me". What is your interpretation of "this"? And do you follow that commandment?

You don't believe there is a Church with authority but Jesus said He will build a Church and to take our differences to The Church (which means The Church decides who is right and what to believe). He gave the Apostles the power to bind and loosen, forgive or not forgive men's sins. They were then commissioned to teach everyone else to obey and practice what He commanded of them. How are you obeying and practicing everything that has been commanded if you don't believe in a Church that has authority?

You say that you "don't blindly follow a leader of a church and assume everything I'm told is correct....... I test it against the word of God". Does that not make you the leader of your own church? You decide what is right and wrong according how YOU interpret scripture? The Apostles didn't even do that. They met together and discussed the issue before they made a decision for a proper interpretation. Are you a better interpreter of Scripture than the Apostles? Your theory makes you a church of one which is opposite of what scripture teaches.

Sola Scriptura doesn't work for the RCC because the theory of sola Scriptura is not in the bible and the RCC follows the bible. Sola Scriptura is not in the OT or the NT. It is a theory that is destroying Christianity because everyone thinks they can read the bible and come to their own correct interpretation when, as you know, scripture says opposite of that.

So how are you fulfilling the Great Commission?

I do follow Christ' church. Not yours. (RCC) There is no telling you any different. Its this simple. The RCC has their followers whipped to believing that only the RCC and those whom they appoint can properly interpret and teach scripture. That is simply not the case. That is control. Look, Im sorry the reformation upset the RCC and exposed the corruption even then. As for Sola Scirptura... It doesnt allow the RCC the breathing room they like to have. Its not destroying Christianity. Did you know the top two churches with the highest member loss rate are the RCC and Southern Baptist. So who is destroying Christianity? They aren't leaving to another church. They are leaving religion entirely!!!

As far as the great commission, I'm not going into my "spiritual resume" with you. I'm not getting into my position I hold within the church I attend. I do follow the great commission. And that is between God and I.

Whats funny, and this is what keeps getting you in trouble on here so pay close attention, I am debating the validity of the RCC. I do not attack you directly. But every time you reply to someone on here in defense of the RCC, you personally attack them. You dont look to take on the reformation as a whole, you find it easier to attack each person.

 

[tom55]

I do follow Christ' church. Not yours. (RCC) There is no telling you any different. Its this simple. The RCC has their followers whipped to believing that only the RCC and those whom they appoint can properly interpret and teach scripture. That is simply not the case. That is control. Look, Im sorry the reformation upset the RCC and exposed the corruption even then. As for Sola Scirptura... It doesnt allow the RCC the breathing room they like to have. Its not destroying Christianity. Did you know the top two churches with the highest member loss rate are the RCC and Southern Baptist. So who is destroying Christianity? They aren't leaving to another church. They are leaving religion entirely!!!

As far as the great commission, I'm not going into my "spiritual resume" with you. I'm not getting into my position I hold within the church I attend. I do follow the great commission. And that is between God and I.

Whats funny, and this is what keeps getting you in trouble on here so pay close attention, I am debating the validity of the RCC. I do not attack you directly. But every time you reply to someone on here in defense of the RCC, you personally attack them. You dont look to take on the reformation as a whole, you find it easier to attack each person.

Once again, unanswered questions. I do not attack a person. I destroy their unscriptural beliefs WITH SCRIPTURE. I have backed up what I believe with scripture. You have not.

The Christian religion is not a church, it is a belief. Scripture clearly says their is a CHURCH, not CHURCHES. A Church has a hierarchy that was clearly set up by the Apostles, the men of the NT and the men that followed them. If that is not a fact of scripture and history then prove me wrong. (You can't and you haven't)

You believe you have The Truth. I believe The Church, established by Jesus Christ, has The Truth, the authority to loosen and bind and the authority to call a person who does not accept what the Church teaches a gentile or tax collector......JUST LIKE SCRIPTURE SAYS. (I am not yelling just emphasizing my point ).

You say you are debating the validity of the RCC. All I see you saying in your debate is that you are right because you have tested everyone else's beliefs against the word of God (scripture) and YOU know what is right. That theory or thought process is not based on scripture.

I have taken on the Reformation as a whole. Re-read what I have written. There was some good that came out of The Reformation. The Reformation does not nor did not make the RCC invalid in its dogma.

I am thankful that you at least have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

I love you. God bless.

 

[Mungo]

Did you know the top two churches with the highest member loss rate are the RCC and Southern Baptist.

Not true about the Catholic Church. It is growing overall. It may be true for the USA (I don't know) but the USA is not the whole world.

AFAIK in the UK the biggest fall in membership is the Anglicans.


Added:

Ageing Church of England 'will be dead in 20 years'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8633540/Ageing-Church-of-England-will-be-dead-in-20-years.html


Britain has become a 'Catholic country'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1573452/Britain-has-become-a-Catholic-country.html

Catholic Church shows ‘robust’ growth in U.S. membership, new report says
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic_church_shows_robust_growth_in_u.s._membership_new_report_says/


There, only took me a few minutes to find those headlines.

Here is another one about the US:

Catholic church growing, Baptist and mainline Protestant numbers decline
http://blog.chron.com/believeitornot/2011/02/catholic-church-growing-baptist-and-mainline-protestant-numbers-decline/

 

[Mungo]

Okay. Go ahead, keep running in circles and stick with your default answer.... to everything.

Does the truth make you uncomfortable?

 

[tom55]

Not true about the Catholic Church. It is growing overall. It may be true for the USA (I don't know) but the USA is not the whole world.

AFAIK in the UK the biggest fall in membership is the Anglicans.


Added:

Ageing Church of England 'will be dead in 20 years'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8633540/Ageing-Church-of-England-will-be-dead-in-20-years.html


Britain has become a 'Catholic country'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1573452/Britain-has-become-a-Catholic-country.html

Catholic Church shows ‘robust’ growth in U.S. membership, new report says
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic_church_shows_robust_growth_in_u.s._membership_new_report_says/


There, only took me a few minutes to find those headlines.

Here is another one about the US:

Catholic church growing, Baptist and mainline Protestant numbers decline
http://blog.chron.com/believeitornot/2011/02/catholic-church-growing-baptist-and-mainline-protestant-numbers-decline/

http://www.wsj.com/articles/in-africa-a-booming-catholic-church-and-growing-pains-to-greet-pope-francis-1448403293

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/02/13/the-global-catholic-population/

 

[FHII]

Does the truth make you uncomfortable?

More spin.

 

[FHII]

Once again, unanswered questions. I do not attack a person. I destroy their unscriptural beliefs WITH SCRIPTURE. I have backed up what I believe with scripture. You have

No, he did answer your questions. Yes, you do attack the person. You haven't destroyed anything. You barely even use scripture! In context or out of context.

Sorry....

 

[kerwin]

Well. Yes, the noble bereans did that. But what happened once the Jews posed a threat? How noble were they?

It is true that the leaders today don't compare to the apostles. But today's leaders know what the apostles did and they eould marvel at what today's leaders can do.

That is a Gentile city in Macedonia. It is officially known as Veria which appears to be another pronunciation of Berea.. The ones incited were more likely to be those who were not called noble. The brethern of the church there sent Paul away. The noble Jews would have been counted among their number.

 

[FHII]

That is a Gentile city in Macedonia. It is officially known as Veria which appears to be another pronunciation of Berea.. The ones incited were more likely to be those who were not called noble. The brethern of the church there sent Paul away. The noble Jews would have been counted among their number.

I don't like any spin... Catholic or otherwise.

But you are right up to a point. The lesson is that many saw the truth (and they were all noble for that) but not many stayed with it.

Kind of like when the RCC was conducting their inquisitions. The martyrs are those who would not bow down to Catholic lies and aggression.

 

[Born_Again]

You havent destroyed anything. And getting into a scripture battle with the RCC is pointless. They interpret it how they want and the members buy it. Plus, why use scripture if it has no authority as you claim.. And yes, you do attack the person. You specifically state the users name in your posts. If you dont consider that a personal attack then you have your own rational for things and it invalidates and discredits anything else you bring forth. Its like killing someone and saying "I didnt murder, I simply kept them from occupying space."

 

[kerwin]

...

But you are right up to a point. The lesson is that many saw the truth (and they were all noble for that) but not many stayed with it.

...

The passage does not say any of those that were called noble fell away but I find it hard to believe that some did not as there were cases when many believers left Jesus.

 

[tom55]

You havent destroyed anything. And getting into a scripture battle with the RCC is pointless. They interpret it how they want and the members buy it. Plus, why use scripture if it has no authority as you claim.. And yes, you do attack the person. You specifically state the users name in your posts. If you dont consider that a personal attack then you have your own rational for things and it invalidates and discredits anything else you bring forth. Its like killing someone and saying "I didnt murder, I simply kept them from occupying space."

Quote one attack on you that I have written. If I was harsh or severe in any evidence/quote you provide I will privately and publically apologize to you. :wub:

Why is getting into a scripture battle with the RCC pointless? As a Christian I feel it is my duty to defend the Truth of Scripture.

Who do you "buy" when interpreting Scripture? Why is your choice more valid or authorative than mine?

Attack (verbally) defined: to criticize someone in a very harsh and severe way

 

[tom55]

No, he did answer your questions. Yes, you do attack the person. You haven't destroyed anything. You barely even use scripture! In context or out of context.

Sorry....

[SIZE=medium]Thank you for joining the discussion. I enjoy all points of views and inputs since I feel I can (and have) learned from them. Can you show me where he answered these questions:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]When you, Born_Again, ‘obey everything that He commanded', who's interpretation do you follow? For instance when He said at the Last Supper "Do this in remembrance of me". What is your interpretation of "this"? And do you follow that commandment? How are you obeying and practicing everything that has been commanded if you don't believe in a Church that has authority? Does that not make you the leader of your own church? You decide what is right and wrong according how YOU interpret scripture? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You say I “barely even use scripture! In context or out of context”.[/SIZE] Do you not recognize where these statements of mine can be found in scripture?

[SIZE=medium]Jesus said He will build a Church (Matthew 16:18) and to take our differences to The Church (Matthew 18:17). He gave the Apostles the power to bind and loosen (Matthew 18:18), forgive or not forgive men's sins([/SIZE]John 20:23)[SIZE=medium]. They were then commissioned to teach everyone else to obey and practice what He commanded of them (Matthew 28:20). Everyone thinks they can read the bible and come to their own correct interpretation when, as you know, scripture says opposite of that (2 Peter 3:16).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]It appears I did use scripture; however, I have to admit I didn’t quote scripture directly and I apologize for that. I assumed he (and you) would recognize scripture inside my written word and I should not have assumed that. That was my mistake.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]My point is that scripture shows that Jesus set up a Church with authority AND as scripture/history proves the Apostles established/built that Church with a hierarchy. I just want to know what Church he believes that church is. I feel like it is a simple question that was not answered especially since he said..."my position I hold within the church I attend" indicates he belongs to a church. If he belongs to a church then I assume he believes that the church he belongs to IS The Church that Jesus established AND the Apostles built. Otherwise why attend that Church and follow it's doctrine? I do not feel my questions are unreasonable. I am proud of The Church I am joining and I believe it has The Truth and I want everyone to know that I THINK it has The Truth. I assumed he would be as proud as me about his church. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Sincerely and with love......Tom55[/SIZE]

 

[Josho]

The Holy Ghost does not need rituals or religious structure to operate.

 

[kerwin]

The Holy Ghost does not need rituals or religious structure to operate.

That is not the question.

After all, God does not need messengers but he chooses to use them.

Never the less, the thread is a statement of opinion and seems to be anti-Catholic at that. Either that or it has been hijacked to be anti-Roman Catholic.