Except for that one time in Acts: "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements". Then he left The Church alone to figure things out.Josho said:
An Opinion about rituals "in religions:"
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Good point. If one cannot find rituals and structure in both Testaments, then one is illiterate.Mungo said:
The second thing I would like to say is the OP is a rant, full of lies. " Inventing sacraments?" Really? Th CC is guilty of inventing the sacrament of Matrimony??? That's as far as I could stomach.
It was "invented" by God in Genesis.
I don't even want to count the number of sheer nonsensical falsehoods in the OP. It's hate propaganda.
Those were the Israelites, they were tied up to a religious system with rituals and structure under the Old Testament. Now where are we tied up to religious structures and rituals in the New Testament? I'm not even gonna relate the NT to a so called "Religious system" I can't relate any of the New Testament to structure and ritual, it's just basic easy instruction, all Jesus ever asked was simple instruction, it's too basic to be even considered religious structure or ritual.Mungo said:
There are SDAs
Some Lutherans
Some Anglicans
There are people from just about every denomination
bound by a Religious spirit, and thank God I'm not 1 of them
Both The Mormons and the JW cults are also bound by a Religious Spirit too, jeez both believe it's only through works they can get to heaven.
It's not only a few Catholics, there are plenty of others, many which include protestants.. The OP should not have targeted this at just Catholics, it's not an issue of a single denomination, but is in just about every denomination, ran by legalism, law, works, religion, and rituals, more in some than others.
There has been cases where Muslims have had dreams or visions of Jesus, there has been cases where people have walked into certain places and have been instantly healed, because of the presence of the Holy Spirit being so strong, there has been cases where people have been hit with the Holy Spirit without anyone even doing anything for the same reasons of the presence of the Holy Spirit being very strong they have cracked up laughing, they have spoken in unknown languages and doing all sorts of unusual stuff, there has been cases where unclean spirits have left people too because the presense of the Holy Spirit was so strong in that place. Now was there any ritual and structure involved in this? No, but it was all the work of the Holy Spirit. If you have never witnessed such things, well then you might need to do a Holy Ghost run with my dad some day or some other lively spirit-filled Christian.Josho said:
God gave the Israelites rituals and structure, I think because we need them. We all have rituals and structures of different kinds in our lives.Josho said:
Jesus & the Apostles gave us rituals and structures:
Rituals:
Baptism
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Mt 28:19)
Eucharist
"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1Cor 11:24-25)
And Paul continues: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup..." It is to be repeated - often.
Laying on of hands
Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17)
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them (Acts 19:6)
Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. (1 Tim 4:14)
These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them. (Acts 6:6)
And other places.
Annointing of the sick
Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord (James 5:14).
Structure:
Completing the structure after the defection of Judas
His office let another take......... And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1: 20&26)
Appointment of deacons
Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty. (Acts 6:3)
And let them also be tested first; then if they prove themselves blameless let them serve as deacons. (1Tim 3:10)
Appointment of bishops
This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you (Ti 1:5)
If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. (1Tim 3:1)
***Mungo said:
Your ideas on religion places those in it under the thumb of men who elevate themselves to be closer to God than anyone else. It also causes many to stay in a church that teaches false theology. A church will not be able to save those in it.
Under grace each and every person that God has made a child of His has a personel relationship with Jesus and Jesus knows them by name.
Rituals are those things done in religion that those in it think will make them closer to God. They substitue their physical efforts for spiritrual efforts. Man must worship God in the spirit, not the flesh.
I note, and I expect others will also, that you make no attempt to refute my scriptures that show that structure and ritual was part of the new Testament. Instead you resort to assertions with no evidence to back them up.H. Richard said:
"Your ideas on religion places those in it under the thumb of men".
I note, and I expect others will also, that you resort to emotive language ("under the thumb of men") rather than reasoned argument.
"who elevate themselves to be closer to God than anyone else."
An adhominen attack on those un-named people. You provide no evidence for such a claim.
"It also causes many to stay in a church that teaches false theology."
An opinion backed up by no evidence.
"Rituals are those things done in religion that those in it think will make them closer to God. They substitue their physical efforts for spiritrual efforts."
Again no evidence is provided for such a claim. As I showed some rituals are given to us in the New Testament.
"Under grace each and every person that God has made a child of His has a personel relationship with Jesus and Jesus knows them by name."
I agree. And the ritual that brings us into the New Covenant - that relationship with God - is baptism.
"Rituals are those things done in religion that those in it think will make them closer to God."
In some cases they do. Baptism for instance brings us into the New Covenant and makes us a child of God.
"They substitue their physical efforts for spiritrual efforts."
No they do not.
"Man must worship God in the spirit, not the flesh"
Again, another opinion backed up by no evidence.
***Mungo said:
I disagree. It is faith that brings us closer to God. Faith in what Jesus (God) did on the cross on our behalf. People that believe in rituals think that by doing them they are doing what God wants them too do. Their faith is in their doing works of rituals, not in what Jesus did on the cross.
If a person's faith, trust, belief, and confidence is not in what Jesus did for them on the cross for them their faith is in what they do in rituals (religion). They are still condemned by the law since their sins were not PAID for on the cross.
What I believe is most certainly backed up by the scriptures. Just because you say it isn't does not make you correct.
You have said "I note, and I expect others will also" and I know what you are doing. You are trying to show I am alone and you are not. Why don't you let others speak for themselves?
Let it be noticed thqat my faith, belief, trust, and confidence is in what Jesus did on the cross where he reconciled me to God by His work on the cross. My salvation does not depend on the teachings of sinful men. It depends on what Jesus did for me on the cross.
@Mungo You cannot consider any of those rituals or structure though, they are simple one step instructions that are done in faith, not works, works without faith is dead, and look at it this way there is no structure, Jesus is not legalistic on how we are to do things, that's something he slammed the Pharisees for. And the verses above you quoted do not need to be done by Elders of a brick building, i believe an elder is anyone in the Body of Christ who is a great man or woman, or child of faith. And the above are basic acts of faith, not ritual or works, which can be done anywhere, anytime, and most of them can be done by any born again believer if they were to activate their faith and use it.
The Church today is nothing like the early Church, there was no set structure in the early Church, they did stuff as they were led by the Spirit to, the early Church was a travelling Body of Christ, and preached the Gospel where-ever God sent them, people like Phillip and Paul, they would preach in the marketplace, they would preach in the middle of the road, you have to remember Peter's had church at a dining table with uncircumcised men, and the Jews cracked it at him, that was the early Church, there was no structure in the early Church.
The early Church wouldn't have been persecuted if they just preached to their fellow believers in between the 4 walls with rituals and structure, in fact they would have led almost nobody to Jesus if the early Church was that way, and that's the problem with a lot of the Body of Christ in the Western world today, not just Catholics, rituals and structure have stopped many Christians from doing more miracles, casting of demons, leading people to Christ, it's not hard to find a Church building where you will walk in on a Sunday, and no one comes out healed from their sicknesses and free from there financial problems. I hear so many Christians these days complaining about their financial problems and their sicknesses, instead of praising God when they come out of Church, now what favor has the works of rituals and religious structure done? you tell me.
If you guys have only been taught works of rituals and religious structure, you can't expect much more, you guys aren't living to the full that God has for us all who are born again, there are many inactivated spiritual gifts that many Christians have not used, they have got them, but have not activated them and used them. If you would like to know how to activate them, discover them and use them, then we can discuss this on another thread at some other time. Such a discussion would be more important than this 1, because it's revival material, if you want to see results no other religion can get, if you want to see the supernatural outside of the Bible in your own personal life, it's a very important discussion to be had.
The Church today is nothing like the early Church, there was no set structure in the early Church, they did stuff as they were led by the Spirit to, the early Church was a travelling Body of Christ, and preached the Gospel where-ever God sent them, people like Phillip and Paul, they would preach in the marketplace, they would preach in the middle of the road, you have to remember Peter's had church at a dining table with uncircumcised men, and the Jews cracked it at him, that was the early Church, there was no structure in the early Church.
The early Church wouldn't have been persecuted if they just preached to their fellow believers in between the 4 walls with rituals and structure, in fact they would have led almost nobody to Jesus if the early Church was that way, and that's the problem with a lot of the Body of Christ in the Western world today, not just Catholics, rituals and structure have stopped many Christians from doing more miracles, casting of demons, leading people to Christ, it's not hard to find a Church building where you will walk in on a Sunday, and no one comes out healed from their sicknesses and free from there financial problems. I hear so many Christians these days complaining about their financial problems and their sicknesses, instead of praising God when they come out of Church, now what favor has the works of rituals and religious structure done? you tell me.
If you guys have only been taught works of rituals and religious structure, you can't expect much more, you guys aren't living to the full that God has for us all who are born again, there are many inactivated spiritual gifts that many Christians have not used, they have got them, but have not activated them and used them. If you would like to know how to activate them, discover them and use them, then we can discuss this on another thread at some other time. Such a discussion would be more important than this 1, because it's revival material, if you want to see results no other religion can get, if you want to see the supernatural outside of the Bible in your own personal life, it's a very important discussion to be had.
Of course they are structures and rituals.Josho said:
Except for the most trivial instances, all human ventures need structure, whether it be running a country or running a golf club. Structures give lines of authority, relationships between people and division of labour. The alternative is anarchy.
Jesus told the apostles:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20). The apostles could not do all that themselves and it would take many generations. Structure would be needed - lines of authority, division of labour -and we see that developing in the scripture I gave. It is clear, both from scripture and from the documents of the early Church, that there was structure in the Church.
We have rituals in public and private lives. In public life the swearing in or a president or the crowning of a monarch has its rituals, sometimes necessary to ensure the legality of what takes place. In private life families have rituals relating to birthdays and Christmas for example. Wedding have many rituals - the ceremony, the speeches, cutting the cake and so on.
Rituals help bind groups together. There is nothing wrong with rituals.
Baptism, for example, is a ritual. The basic ritual is baptising (by immersion or pouring of water) accompanied by the words I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The basic ritual has been expanded to help bring out the significance of baptism. But what is wrong with that?
Sure, there is a danger that the Holy Spirit can be stifled by structure and rituals. The latter become empty when people do them but do not not understand what they signify.
We need both structure and the free movement of the Holy Spirit. And in the Catholic Church we have both. Have you heard of Catholic Charismatic Renewal (CCR)? It is a movement of the Spirit within the Catholic Church. It has no human founder and no formal organisation or membership, yet is not anarchical because it relates into the structure of the Church.
The great commision was given to the 12 (Jews). After nearly 40 years they could not get the nation of Israel to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King so how could they reach out to the Gentiles? But God set them aside when he destoryed the Temple in 70 AD and reached out to the Gentiles.tom55 said:
You will not be able to see these scripture because they shows that the 12(11) never went out to the Gentiles.
Gal 2:7-9
7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),
9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
NKJV
Acts 11:19
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
NKJV
You said Quote "Except for the most trivial instances, all human ventures need structure, whether it be running a country or running a golf club. Structures give lines of authority, relationships between people and division of labour. The alternative is anarchy.Mungo said:
Mankind has always set up civil governments to take care of anarchy. Yes, those in the RCC need structure because they do not know anything about faith. Their trust is the men that run the RCC. The sciptures tell us not to trust in men.
Ps 118:8-9
8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in princes.
NKJV
What a puerile argument. I say you are 'X'. The Bible warns us of 'X'. Bingo! proved! - NOT!H. Richard said:
Christ's Church needs structure or we have anarchy. You have only to look at the 30,000+ Protestant denominations to see evidence of that.
Jesus set up a Church with structure. I gave some scriptures for that.
We can see that structure in the early Church documents. I can give you examples of that if you want.
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
Okay, heres the deal. This was started as a thread about rituals. Its now covered with underlying tones of denomination bashing on both sides. This thread has run its course.
Topic closed! Thank you all for participating.
Topic closed! Thank you all for participating.
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