AN OVERVIEW OF THE BIBLE:

[H. Richard]

i think these dichotomies speak to differing states of mind, and i am not sure that you are not completely correct, for one prevalent state of mind, at least. But as for the "That has it backwards," which is quite possible, it is nonetheless a translation of Scripture, thoughtfully undertaken, so i would ask exactly what passage is backward, and ask for a Scriptural refute. I personally have problems with the wording in v 3, and some other spots myself.

I also witness a state of rest where there should be action, and action where there might be rest, in the church, myself. I see locked churches in the midst of community suffering, homelessness, and constantly re-laying the foundation where there should be rest, iow.

So, a thorny concept, that imo depends upon which part of a man one is referring to, possibly. What "has it backwards," iow, to your understanding? ty

***
My disagreement is where you said

"10 God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we'll surely rest with God.

11 So let's keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience.

According to the scriptures the children of God have already entered God's rest.


[SIZE=1.3em]What are we supposed to "KEEP AT"?? We who are "IN CHRIST"" have already entered into God's rest. Your statement "[/SIZE]10 God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we'll surely rest with God. -- [SIZE=23.66px]11[/SIZE] So let's keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience.

Since all (EVERYONE ) of the sins of the world were laid on Him and atoned for by His shed blood there only one thing that will prevent a person from entering God's rest; and that one thing is un-belief. To not believe Jesus has already atoned for the person's sin. -- We are to be obedient to this promise of God.in Paul's gospel of grace.


Heb 4:3-10
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

***
My disagreement is where you said

"10 God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we'll surely rest with God.

11 So let's keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience.

According to the scriptures the children of God have already entered God's rest.

ok, well you are suggesting that i said those, when they are Scripture, so let's take a look in another translation or something...
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-10.htmprovides those, and one can toggle right or left for the other verses.

The KJV says in v11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

So the conclusion--although you prolly won't like it--is that the "children of god" are being mis-identified in some way, and we have the story of the Wanderers to guide us here i guess; many were called, and few were chosen. And imo it does no good to insist that anyone who came to Jesus out of a fear of hell and made a little altar confession is now considered one of the chosen, if it ends up being a lie. By all means rest from your works, to be considered accepted, i am all for that--this heart will be evinced by one quick to apologize, even if they did nothing wrong, and not still "working" to maintain their imagined moral superiority, etc, might be one way to perceive it.

I'll scan the rest, but prolly i'll let you reload here, since i guess the rest of your post kind of builds on this, this characterization of some "labor" that imo is not accomplished at the altar, at least for the vast majority of us. Although i can freely admit that i have seen some profound changes of heart that way, too, ok. Like, two, in forty years. And no doubt even they had some labor to still accomplish. Even the phrasing, "labor to enter rest," should give one pause, yes?

 

[bbyrd009]

What are we supposed to "KEEP AT"?? We who are "IN CHRIST"" have already entered into God's rest.

Ah--who is this "we?" The same "we" who is drone-bombing innocents at the moment, and awarding Nobel Peace Prizes to warmongers? That "we?"

So you might ask God what you are to keep at, since it is Scripture, and consider how easily some "we" gets defined for us, that will naturally create a "they," right--if there is a "we," there has to be a "they."

So i would ask you to clarify who is "we?"

 

[bbyrd009]

And since those generally do not get answered in my experience, let me suggest that a "we" has been established primarily so that a "they" can be discovered, for the ultimate end of oppressing, or treating differently, when this is not the way to Christ. As soon as one defines a "we," they are doomed. And yes, i am aware of the many places in Scripture that suggest such is possible; i suggest that they be used personally, applied personally, rather than corporately, as is so often attempted. Iow read and apply these to your walk, and avoid the temptation of judging another man's walk. "We" are called to love our enemies, which is the opposite of bombing them, ok, and we can dissociate ourselves from the latter while pretending to the former all we like, but the term for that is "hypocrite," if we are married to that system in other ways, which of course we are, if we have a dollar in our pocket, or vote, or certainly if we pledge allegiance, etc.

 

[bbyrd009]

Heb 4:3-10
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
NKJV


a great passage, imo, that brings out how those preached to are not entering, and the importance of today, and even the observance of the Sabbath.
And i suggest that those who enter His rest will even manifest a physical death in keeping with this, as is suggested in several passages.
Which this might be kind of hard to equate, but imo Joan of Arc is remembered as going with serenity, even as she came to a violent end at others' hands,
whereas someone dying of cancer without any overt violence committed upon them just somehow has a different flavor, doesn't it.

 

[dorian37grey]

sorry i am so late to this topic ;
i think an understanding that the over view of the bible is key to seeing what is going on here
after many years of looking ; i offer this

the bible
1- the problem
2- the issues ( to fix the problem)
3- the re set ( as the chosen people go into captivity; showing man's state )
4- the answer
5 response to the answer
6 the end game

the problem is seen in genesis pre flood
the issues are seen or brought out from the times of abraham to david
captivity is next and the process of( divorce n tribes,) at, going in ; and coming out ( s tribes ) finishes the old testament
the answer of coarse is Jesus and the gospels
* i have come to see ; the birth ; the life ; the death and his promised return --- addresses those brought out issues of abraham to david's time ( in order)
the response is seen as the nt books unfold and we see people reaction to what happened
and revelation ; tells of the the end of of this

just my opening thoughts on the overview of the bible

 

[H. Richard]

nice. Yet we are called to pick up our crosses and follow, so it seems while there is a rest, there is also a tension in the concept.

888
This is too vague. Some take the words "take up your cross" to indicate you have to do some works to be saved. The message of God's grace is that He has done all the works necessary for a person to be saved. They only have to believe it.

 

[H. Richard]

ok, well you are suggesting that i said those, when they are Scripture, so let's take a look in another translation or something...
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-10.htmprovides those, and one can toggle right or left for the other verses.

The KJV says in v11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

So the conclusion--although you prolly won't like it--is that the "children of god" are being mis-identified in some way, and we have the story of the Wanderers to guide us here i guess; many were called, and few were chosen. And imo it does no good to insist that anyone who came to Jesus out of a fear of hell and made a little altar confession is now considered one of the chosen, if it ends up being a lie. By all means rest from your works, to be considered accepted, i am all for that--this heart will be evinced by one quick to apologize, even if they did nothing wrong, and not still "working" to maintain their imagined moral superiority, etc, might be one way to perceive it.

I'll scan the rest, but prolly i'll let you reload here, since i guess the rest of your post kind of builds on this, this characterization of some "labor" that imo is not accomplished at the altar, at least for the vast majority of us. Although i can freely admit that i have seen some profound changes of heart that way, too, ok. Like, two, in forty years. And no doubt even they had some labor to still accomplish. Even the phrasing, "labor to enter rest," should give one pause, yes?

***
All your reply does is make one verse defeat other verses. If that is the way you study the Bible you will not see that they don't.

The child of God does not live in fear. He/she has placed their Belief (faith, trust, confidence) in The gospel of grace that was given to Paul. These only labor to keep those that want to put them back under works of man in religion. As you are doing.

 

[H. Richard]

Ah--who is this "we?" The same "we" who is drone-bombing innocents at the moment, and awarding Nobel Peace Prizes to warmongers? That "we?"

So you might ask God what you are to keep at, since it is Scripture, and consider how easily some "we" gets defined for us, that will naturally create a "they," right--if there is a "we," there has to be a "they."

So i would ask you to clarify who is "we?"

***
Give it up I used the word we in general to say mankind. I see that you are now wanting to make this discussion between us personal so as to side track the thread. I am not going there so have fun.

 

[H. Richard]

G. THE OLD REPLACED BY THE NEW: post #13

Most religious people will not say that the gospel changed. But it is plain that it did. The "gospel of the kingdom" was what Jesus and the 12(11) preached. It was the promise of God to the Jews only. The rest of the Gentile nations could only go in through the Jews (sheep and goat judgement)

The Jews refused their Messiah and King. Therefore God had a ""HIDDEN GOSPEL" that was revealed to Paul. The gospel of God's grace in that everyone on earth could be saved by just believing Jesus's shed blood has already paid for their sins. All glory for salvation belongs to Jesus.

 

[bbyrd009]

888
This is too vague. Some take the words "take up your cross" to indicate you have to do some works to be saved. The message of God's grace is that He has done all the works necessary for a person to be saved. They only have to believe it.

well, obviously something has to be done, that does not result in salvation, but rather manifests from it. And imo drone bombing innocents is not going to qualify.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
All your reply does is make one verse defeat other verses. If that is the way you study the Bible you will not see that they don't.

The child of God does not live in fear. He/she has placed their Belief (faith, trust, confidence) in The gospel of grace that was given to Paul. These only labor to keep those that want to put them back under works of man in religion. As you are doing.

well you have to assimilate "pick up your cross and follow Me" for yourself, i guess. I don't see any verses defeating any other verses; i think these speak to different frames of reference, different states of a heart. Not interested in those who only cry "Lord, Lord" while denying any other responsibility any more, wadr. That is what has got us to here imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
Give it up I used the word we in general to say mankind. I see that you are now wanting to make this discussion between us personal so as to side track the thread. I am not going there so have fun.

"What are we supposed to "KEEP AT"?? We who are "IN CHRIST"" have already entered into God's rest."

so, all of mankind is "in Christ" in your opinion?

 

[H. Richard]

so, all of mankind is "in Christ" in your opinion?

***
The truth is that all of mankind could be "in Christ" since their sins have been atoned for on the cross. But the religious will oppose it

This thread is an invitation for anyone to make their own overview of the Bible. Have you done so and given the scriptures that support it? If not then why are you on this thread?

 

[H. Richard]

well you have to assimilate "pick up your cross and follow Me" for yourself, i guess. I don't see any verses defeating any other verses; i think these speak to different frames of reference, different states of a heart. Not interested in those who only cry "Lord, Lord" while denying any other responsibility any more, wadr. That is what has got us to here imo.

***
What has got us to here is that I believe in God's grace and you believe you have to do something to get it. It is the same thing the Jews tried to get Paul's converts to do. In other words you seem to believe that you have to do something to get God's gift.

I don't think you understand that God will not look kindly on those that refuse His gift?

 

[bbyrd009]

"Don't be deceived, little children; those who do the right thing are the righteous ones, just as He is righteous."

***
The truth is that all of mankind could be "in Christ" since their sins have been atoned for on the cross.

ya, quite possibly, i guess, although the phrase is usually used more specifically, right.

 

[bbyrd009]

This thread is an invitation for anyone to make their own overview of the Bible. Have you done so and given the scriptures that support it? If not then why are you on this thread?

um, i thought i was pretty much just replying to your questions here, sorry.

 

[bbyrd009]

The only time the words FAITH ALONE are found together in the bible is in James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

That seems opposite of what you are saying!

 

[H. Richard]

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

The only time the words FAITH ALONE are found together in the bible is in James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

That seems opposite of what you are saying!

***
James 1:1
JAMES Greeting to the Twelve Tribes --- 1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
NKJV


You believe James when he wrote James 2;24 but you do not believe James when he wrote James 1;1. Interesting.

Since the book of James was written to the Jews who were scattered abroad it was not to those under grace. What is obvious to those that read the scriptures for what they say is that James considered the Jews to be under the law, This is confirmed by Acts 21:20

In the book of James;

1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

 

[dorian37grey]

sorry i am so late to this topic ;
i think an understanding that the over view of the bible is key to seeing what is going on here
after many years of looking ; i offer this

the bible
1- the problem
2- the issues ( to fix the problem)
3- the re set ( as the chosen people go into captivity; showing man's state )
4- the answer
5 response to the answer
6 the end game

did you notice ; how this conversation ended up ; not with the bible over view but rather in #5 response to the answer ( romans to jude ) ?
imo; a true overview of the bible "must" fit all the pieces of the bible into one story

if we only use romans to jude ; then we only get the responses of the early church and not what the rest of the book was implying ***

the gospel story is contained in those first 4 books of the new testament ( matthew mark, luke and john) because they are the Jesus story ;
and it is that Jesus story that is the ANSWER

but that answer isnt to the responses of the claims and ideas of romans to jude ; --THAT'S BACKWARDS

not one word written by Pail or James etc ; changes what the gospel is ; because the gospel is done and completed by Jesus at the cross

right?