AN OVERVIEW OF THE BIBLE:

[H. Richard]

sorry i am so late to this topic ;
i think an understanding that the over view of the bible is key to seeing what is going on here
after many years of looking ; i offer this

the bible
1- the problem
2- the issues ( to fix the problem)
3- the re set ( as the chosen people go into captivity; showing man's state )
4- the answer
5 response to the answer
6 the end game

did you notice ; how this conversation ended up ; not with the bible over view but rather in #5 response to the answer ( romans to jude ) ?
imo; a true overview of the bible "must" fit all the pieces of the bible into one story

if we only use romans to jude ; then we only get the responses of the early church and not what the rest of the book was implying ***

the gospel story is contained in those first 4 books of the new testament ( matthew mark, luke and john) because they are the Jesus story ;
and it is that Jesus story that is the ANSWER

but that answer isnt to the responses of the claims and ideas of romans to jude ; --THAT'S BACKWARDS

not one word written by Pail or James etc ; changes what the gospel is ; because the gospel is done and completed by Jesus at the cross

right?

***
In this age of God's grace you are right when you say that salvation was completed at the cross. Only those who put their trust (belief, faith, confidence) in what Jesus did on the cross will be saved in this age of grace. In this age the law has been set aside for the children of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

yet it is he who fulfills the law that will judge you, it seems. Break law at your own risk, Paul was pretty clear imo.

 

[H. Richard]

yet it is he who fulfills the law that will judge you, it seems. Break law at your own risk, Paul was pretty clear imo.

***
Look at what you wrote and examine it. You have to think that you do not break the law in order to write it. Do you break the law at your own risk??

Don't you realize that mankind CAN NOT KEEP THE LAW? If they could then Jesus' death on the cross would not have been necessary.

What Jesus did, by atoning for the sins of the whole world, made it possible for sinners, like you and me, to be sinless. Not in the sinful flesh, but in the spirit that God has placed in His children. See Gal. 4:6 below

Gal 3:2-11
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? —
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
The Law Brings a Curse
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
NKJV

Gal 4:4-7
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

Fulfilling the law is not the same as being under the law, that is pretty plain. Break the law at your own risk, most definitely. There is (i would say pretty obviously) a diff in falling short accidentally v believing and counseling others that some law is no longer valid, which seems to be the conclusion many reach. The Commandments are not invalidated by Grace; Grace makes allowance for someone who breaks a Commandment, when they evince works unto rebound from breaking the law. Just because we cannot keep every law perfectly does not mean "don't even bother."

Paul was pretty clear on this, and i would sure be wary of anyone advocating looking to Christ like a snake on a pole to "save" them from their sins, and relieve them from their responsibility to do righteousness. That is how you get to "Jesus is going to fly down and take me to heaven someday," imo.

 

[dorian37grey]

i had brought out earlier the topic of issues ( to fix the problem)
we see these brought out in the bible story form the time periods of Abraham to David
if we look at matthew one ; we would also see these 4 time periods each are marked as well by each time period having their own "WHOSE MOTHER WAS"

TAMAR ; genesis post flood ; and the issue brought out here ; the order of melchizedek

RAHAB; journey to the promised land ; the issue brought out here is the law

RUTH; time of judges ; and the issue here is kinsman redemption

BATHSHEBA; time of kings ; which the issue of kingship

looking at Jesus; he addresses the order of melchizedek with his birth ; the law with his life ; kinsman redemption with his death , and returns as king of kings

looking at just the law is missing its place concerning those other issues

 

[H. Richard]

Fulfilling the law is not the same as being under the law, that is pretty plain. Break the law at your own risk, most definitely. There is (i would say pretty obviously) a diff in falling short accidentally v believing and counseling others that some law is no longer valid, which seems to be the conclusion many reach. The Commandments are not invalidated by Grace; Grace makes allowance for someone who breaks a Commandment, when they evince works unto rebound from breaking the law. Just because we cannot keep every law perfectly does not mean "don't even bother."

Paul was pretty clear on this, and i would sure be wary of anyone advocating looking to Christ like a snake on a pole to "save" them from their sins, and relieve them from their responsibility to do righteousness. That is how you get to "Jesus is going to fly down and take me to heaven someday," imo.

***
So, in your opinion, you are saying the child of God does not even bother to keep the law. Who made you their judge? Can you see the torment that they have to live under while living in their sinful flesh? Do you see the torment that others put on them when they constantly tell them they must stop sinning? Then this final question to you; is your faith in your efforts to not sin or is it in Jesus' shed blood that atoned (paid) for ALL your sins of the flesh? --- If your faith in in the later then you are just like the rest of the children of God and you won't judge the rest of the children because they are just like you..

What you are wanting others to do is something that you can't do your self.

1 Thess 5:9-10
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
NKJV

2 Cor 5:20-21
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

So, in your opinion, you are saying the child of God does not even bother to keep the law. Who made you their judge?

hmm, this first sentence is not put well, as i mean to say that a child of God keeps all of the Law, but is not subject to It.

Can you see the torment that they have to live under while living in their sinful flesh?

well, not if they fulfill the Law, which after all is just mostly common sense societal-type respecting-others stuff. And humbly admitting when they didn't, and asking forgiveness from those they wronged, in the same venue, and offering to make it right--availing themselves of Grace, iow. So, where is the torment, again? Otherwise, which Commandment are you saying that it's ok to violate?

Do you see the torment that others put on them when they constantly tell them they must stop sinning?

ah, now this is a different concept entirely. Now the opinion of other men has been inserted, see, and imo we are bound to consider this opinion, if it is an accusation of some sin against themselves, yes? If you are constantly telling me that i need to stop committing some sin upon you, the torment to me seems to reside in the fact that i don't want to stop doing this sin, apparently.

But what you are really illuminating is judgement by others, right, someone seeking to pick a splinter from someone else's or your eye, when they have no personal complaint. This used to be torment for me, yes, until i saw that these people were revealing their hearts, ezackly like Scripture says, and the correct response is to run screaming from this person, so to speak, with bonus points for a silent scream. The torment thus remains with the tormentor, and maybe some coals get heaped on their heads, too. The dynamic is no different from children pushing each other's buttons, wherein a parent clues in the "tormented" party--usually the younger sibling, right--that as soon as they see that not reacting is the cure, the torment goes away. Because we are not ever going to run out of judgmental people, revealing their hearts, imo. At least i hope not, or else who will push those buttons?

anyone who can be tormented like this truly knows the meaning of hell, imo--and has a pretty good def of "eternity," too. "Who told you that you were naked?" is a great pointer for this, and as long as (you) can be "tortured" by some outside agency, then that is just what you need, i guess. Personally i no longer put up with it; meaning that i am perfectly comfortable standing right next to that fire, even warming my hands by it. Ok, that's maybe not completely true, but to the extent that it is not, that is my problem imo. Beautiful are the feet, iow.

If this person can torture me, they can also dictate my beliefs, right.

 

[bbyrd009]

Then this final question to you; is your faith in your efforts to not sin or is it in Jesus' shed blood that atoned (paid) for ALL your sins of the flesh?

well, the second, and i suggest that this should even change the perspective on the first--i don't "make efforts to not sin" per se, but do my best to go about creating, recognizing that i need to respect others, and be alert for when i may have wronged them, which gets easier as your circle of awareness expands, and you learn to anticipate what consequences might occur from what actions. This is where the law will fail you; because there is no law against me mowing my field on a windy day when the wind is blowing in your direction; but if i am aware that you suffer from allergies, and i see that your windows are open, i may suddenly be faced with a dilemma, especially if i don't like you very much or whatever; a dilemma that does not even come up if i am so oblivious as to not be bothering to put my knowledge together in that way, or even if i am just absent minded, perhaps, although see that the concept is altered simply in the difference between these two states. If i was simply being absent-minded, did i sin? And even if i wasn't, did i sin then? it's my field, and your problem, right.

So, i guess i didn't much address this "my efforts to not sin," but that is because i reject that model, anyway, imo that is a death-centered model, a church model, that relays the foundation over and over, death and sin, sin and death, like being stuck on step 2 at a 12 step meeting forever lol. I accept that i am going to sin sometimes, no biggie, and also that others will sin against me sometimes, accidentally or no. Someone trying to pick a splinter from my eye is a completely diff concept, iow. Does this bug me and make me defensive, or do i hold my eye open? It is my button to be pushed, i guess.

 

[H. Richard]

hmm, this first sentence is not put well, as i mean to say that a child of God keeps all of the Law, but is not subject to It.

well, not if they fulfill the Law, which after all is just mostly common sense societal-type respecting-others stuff. And humbly admitting when they didn't, and asking forgiveness from those they wronged, in the same venue, and offering to make it right--availing themselves of Grace, iow. So, where is the torment, again? Otherwise, which Commandment are you saying that it's ok to violate?
ah, now this is a different concept entirely. Now the opinion of other men has been inserted, see, and imo we are bound to consider this opinion, if it is an accusation of some sin against themselves, yes? If you are constantly telling me that i need to stop committing some sin upon you, the torment to me seems to reside in the fact that i don't want to stop doing this sin, apparently.

But what you are really illuminating is judgement by others, right, someone seeking to pick a splinter from someone else's or your eye, when they have no personal complaint. This used to be torment for me, yes, until i saw that these people were revealing their hearts, ezackly like Scripture says, and the correct response is to run screaming from this person, so to speak, with bonus points for a silent scream. The torment thus remains with the tormentor, and maybe some coals get heaped on their heads, too. The dynamic is no different from children pushing each other's buttons, wherein a parent clues in the "tormented" party--usually the younger sibling, right--that as soon as they see that not reacting is the cure, the torment goes away. Because we are not ever going to run out of judgmental people, revealing their hearts, imo. At least i hope not, or else who will push those buttons?

anyone who can be tormented like this truly knows the meaning of hell, imo--and has a pretty good def of "eternity," too. "Who told you that you were naked?" is a great pointer for this, and as long as (you) can be "tortured" by some outside agency, then that is just what you need, i guess. Personally i no longer put up with it; meaning that i am perfectly comfortable standing right next to that fire, even warming my hands by it. Ok, that's maybe not completely true, but to the extent that it is not, that is my problem imo. Beautiful are the feet, iow.

If this person can torture me, they can also dictate my beliefs, right.

***
NO! they can't.

I personally, can see the sin in the world. But more importantly I can see the sin that is in my own sinful flesh. This last part is what others that preach law can not seem to see That is why they lose sight of what Jesus truly did for mankind on the cross and preach law for others as if they keep the law. Today, under grace, we are not judged by the law but by our faith in what God has accomplished on the cross. In Romans 7 Paul tell of the two natures of a child of God but you refuse to see what he said. Let me post it.

Rom 7:13-25 Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

You wish to ignore the last part of verse 25

But I see that you want to disagree with this.

 

[bbyrd009]

What you are wanting others to do is something that you can't do your self.

be willing to own up when you sin against me? i can do that. But i know what you mean; however i don't mean to suggest that one is subject to the Law, and must obey it without blemish--which is obviously what we do here in this "Christian nation," where the state often picks up the charges, if there is no complainant.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
NO! they can't.

I personally, can see the sin in the world. But more importantly I can see the sin that is in my own sinful flesh. This last part is what others that preach law can not seen to see That is why they lose sight of what Jesus truly did for mankind on the cross and preach law for others as if they keep the law. Today, under grace, we are not judged by the law but by our faith in what God has accomplished on the cross.

But I see that you want to disagree with this.

no, i agree, and maybe a better way to put that is that if someone can torture you in that way, non-physically, iow, then they will also be able to dictate your beliefs, because they have sway over you. You say that you can see sin in your own walk, but i'm not sure what you refer to, so we maybe would have to consider a specific case to move forward there. I don't see too much of this in my walk any more, so i'm not sure what you mean.

 

[H. Richard]

be willing to own up when you sin against me? i can do that. But i know what you mean; however i don't mean to suggest that one is subject to the Law, and must obey it without blemish--which is obviously what we do here in this "Christian nation," where the state often picks up the charges, if there is no complainant.

***
Why do you say "sin against me"?

 

[H. Richard]

no, i agree, and maybe a better way to put that is that if someone can torture you in that way, non-physically, iow, then they will also be able to dictate your beliefs, because they have sway over you. You say that you can see sin in your own walk, but i'm not sure what you refer to, so we maybe would have to consider a specific case to move forward there. I don't see too much of this in my walk any more, so i'm not sure what you mean.

***
They do not have sway over a person who trusts in God. You don't see that the believing Jews persecuted the Gentiles under grace by saying they must keep the law of Moses? I guess not since you seem to be doing the same thing.

Let me define what I see.

Religions = trusting in systems of rules and regulation and works for the god they think exists.

Grace = God, knowing that mankind can not stop sinning (Romans 7), did everything necessary for a person's salvation on the cross and He gets all the glory. To not believe this is to be in a state of un-belief.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
Why do you say "sin against me"?

oh, to cover those cases in which someone is obviously doing me wrong. It does happen.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
They do not have sway over a person who trusts in God. You don't see that the believing Jews persecuted the Gentiles under grace by saying they must keep the law of Moses? I guess not since you seem to be doing the same thing.

Let me define what I see.

Religions = trusting in systems of rules and regulation and works for the god they think exists.

Grace = God, knowing that mankind can not stop sinning (Romans 7), did everything necessary for a person's salvation on the cross and He gets all the glory. To not believe this is to be in a state of un-belief.

In your opinion, perhaps, but i suggest that a believer will not break any laws simply as a matter of course. Yet will likely be persecuted, anyway. Having Grace does not mean flouting the Law, it means not being subject to it, imo. Paul went over this--not that it was any less confusing, lol. Imo a common sense way to approach it is, just break a law, and then see if you are not in hell!

 

[H. Richard]

This has become a thread far removed from being an Overview of The Bible.

I have posted the several parts to my overview. It is what I see in the Bible.

I hope it helps those that will see it for what it says.

I am through on this thread.

H Richard

 

[bbyrd009]

It is easy to justify that you might be able to identify a "child of God" using Scripture, in the moment, but this is the trap, imo. While there certainly are those who seek to be righteous more than others, everyone is righteous in their own eyes, and you must fulfill the Law to be accepted by God. Imo this does not mean that you have to be perfect, as that would be "subject to the law." But it does mean that the Law will indicate when you are not being righteous. If you read the Book and are led to judge others, then you are revealing your heart. Life and death is set before us, in the Book, and you choose in the moment whom you will follow.

 

[H. Richard]

It is easy to justify that you might be able to identify a "child of God" using Scripture, in the moment, but this is the trap, imo. While there certainly are those who seek to be righteous more than others, everyone is righteous in their own eyes, and you must fulfill the Law to be accepted by God. Imo this does not mean that you have to be perfect, as that would be "subject to the law." But it does mean that the Law will indicate when you are not being righteous. If you read the Book and are led to judge others, then you are revealing your heart. Life and death is set before us, in the Book, and you choose in the moment whom you will follow.

***
There are those who preach law and those that preach faith. It is easy to see who preaches what.

Faith in keeping the law will send many to hell but those under God's grace will never see hell. They have become God's children ""IN CHRIST"" and God will never cast out His children.

Mankind, while still living in sinful flesh, can never say they are righteous by their activities of the flesh. The children of God will say they are righteous "IN CHRIST" because God has declared them to be righteous.

 

[bbyrd009]

i agree with you that Grace is all you need, but you must avail yourself of Grace; it is not automatic. God declared them righteous because they confess their sins one to another, and are humble, and not proud. It is not unconditional.

"Do not be deceived, little children; it is those who do the right thing who will be called righteous."

"A man who is physically uncircumcised, but who fulfills the law, will judge you who are a lawbreaker in spite of having the letter [of the law] and circumcision."

so you might rethink this "i can give a little speech at a church altar one Sunday and say some religious words and Jesus will love me for the rest of my life."

if you are buying that, there are certainly plenty of people selling it, but it is straight Nehushtan worship, and you have made a bargain with death that will not serve you when you need it the most. "Cast your cares upon the Lord" is misrepresented here; if you had done that, you would not have broken the law to begin with. You can go get circumcised, and carry around a Bible, and ask strangers if they have accepted Jesus into their hearts all day long, and still be an unrepentant sinner, a hypocrite, good for nothing but Gehenna, all the while telling people that faith in Christ is all they need, when the Book will plainly tell you differnt, wadr. Not even the tiniest part of the Law has been made of no effect. Every jot and tittle is still valid.

If you break a Commandment, do you not owe someone an apology? If you do not apologize and offer to make it right, why would God forgive you? Grace is not an excuse to remain a gutless hypocrite. The wages of sin is death; Grace keeps you from staying dead, if you avail yourself of it. And if you do not, it does not.

"This is how God's children--and the Devil's children--are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother."

"Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous."

"6If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," yet we walk in darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth."