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Analysis on Daniel chapter 11

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Ewiak Ryszard, Mar 7, 2007.

  1. Who is "the king of the north"?Some insightful Bible students noticed, the proof lies in the obvious identity that exists between Daniel's "the king of the north" in the last days and Ezekiel's "Gog" of the latter days. By comparing what is said about each of them in the two prophecies, it is manifest that they can only be different titles for the same being.Ezekiel Chapter 38 and 39 = Daniel 11:451. Their geographical position is the same. "Gog's" country is in the north part in relation to the Holy Land; as it is written, "Thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts". "Gog" is therefore "the king of the north", his place or country being there.2. Both of them are adversaries of Israel and invaders of the Holy Land. The eleventh chapter of Daniel abundantly proves this in relation to "the king of the north"; and of "Gog", Yahoueh said: "Thou shalt come up against my people Israel, as a cloud to cover the land".3. The time they invade the land is the same. "The king of the north" invades in the last days. Of "Gog" it is said: "It shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land".4. The same peoples are named as components of their armies. The Libyans and Ethiopians are allies with "the king of the north"; and in the enumeration of Gog's forces, it says, "Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them".Who is "Gog"? Which land is the land of "Magog"?Some people think that "Gog" is the Devil. But does the context support this idea?Ezekiel wrote that after "Gog's" last attack he will fall and then be buried by the people. (Ez.39:4,11) So there is no need to prove that "Gog" represents the Devil as we know that the devil does not have a body of flesh and bone and has no need for a grave. Thus, in actuality, whom does "Gog" symbolize?"Gog" is the chief prince of Meschech and Tubal."Meshech, the sixth son of Japheth (Genesis 10:2) is the founder of a tribe (1 Chronicles 1:5; Ezekiel 27:13; 38:2,3). They were in all probability the Moschi people, inhabiting the Moschian Mountains, between the Black and the Caspian Seas. In Psalms 120:5 the name occurs simply as a synonym for foreigners or barbarians. "During the ascendency of the Babylonians and Persians in Western Asia, the Moschi were subdued; but it seems probable that a large number of them crossed the Caucasus range and spread over the northern steppes, mingling with the Scythians. There they became known as Muscovs and gave this name to the Russian nation and its ancient capital by which they are still generally known throughout the East" (Easton's Bible Dictionary).Many ancient sources have clearly identified "Magog" as referring to the "Scythians".One of the earliest references to Magog was made by Hesiod, "the father of Greek didactic poetry" who identified Magog with the Scythians and southern Russia in the 7th century B.C. Hesiod was a contemporary of Ezekiel.Josephus Flavius clearly identified Magog. "Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians". (Josephus, Antiquities, 1.123; Jerome, Commentary on Ezekiel 38:2)The Greek historian Herodotus wrote that in the fifth century B.C. the Scythians ruled from the Don River, in present southern Russia, to the Carpathian Mountains in central Europe.Philo, is another historian in the first century A.D. who identified "Magog" with southern Russia.Ancient authorities clearly identified the Scythians as the ancestors of the present day Russians.However, even without that information, the identity of "Magog" is not too difficult to figure out. In Ezekiel 38:15, it says: "And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee". The "north parts" is literally the "extreme, or uttermost" parts of the north.Who are "the kings of the north" and "south"?Who are the "kings" of this chapter?Daniel 11:2Since the Prophecy was given in the third year of Cyrus (Daniel 10:1), the three kings that were to "stand up yet", that is, "after him", were Cambyses II, Smerdis the Magian imposter, Darius I Hystaspes.The fourth king, Xerxes I, stirred up Persia against Greece, which he invaded in 480 B.C. but failed to conquer. Since prophecy touches only upon important events and characters, the remaining kings of Persia are omitted, and the prophecy jumps over nearly 150 years to the time of Alexander the Great 336-323 B.C.E.Daniel 11:3,4"A valiant king", Alexander the Great, whose kingdom after his death was divided into four parts.1) Seleucus I - who began the Seleucid (Syrian) empire, from Turkey to India.2) Cassander - who took over Macedonia (Greece).3) Lysimachus - who took Thracia (between Greece and Turkey).4) Ptolemy I - who ruled over Egypt.Daniel 11:5After the death of Alexander the Great in 323 B.C., the throne of Egypt fell to Ptolemy I Soter, the son of Lagus, the king of the south."One of his princes", Seleucus I, Nicator ["the king of the north"] also rose to power, and took over the region of Syria. He eventually became more powerful than his former Egyptian ruler.Daniel 11:6"The daughter of the king of the south" = Berenice II, daughter of Ptolemy II Philadelphus."The king of the north" = Antiochus II Theos.Two years after the marriage, Berenice's father (Ptolemy Philadelphus) died.Antiochus restored Laodice and put away Berenice.He was then poisoned by Laodice.Berenice fled with her children to Daphne where she was killed.Daniel 11:7-9A "branch of her roots" will come with an army. This was Berenice's brother, Ptolemy III Euregetes, "the king of the south"."The king of the north" is Seleucus II Kallinikos, son of Laodice who was defeated in a later invasion of Egypt. He lost most of Asia Minor along with losing to the military expansion of Ptolemy III who put his mother, Laodice, to death.Verse 9: "And [the king of the north] will enter into the kingdom of the king of the south, but will return to his own land". (literal translation)Seleucus II, son of the deceased Laodice, sought revenge for the vengeance taken by Ptolemy III. "Justin says that he fitted out a great fleet, which was destroyed by a violent storm; and after this he raised a great army to recover his dominion, but was defeated by Ptolemy, and fled in great terror and trembling to Antioch" (Gill's Commentary).Daniel 11:10-12His ["the king of the north"] sons = Seleucus III Ceraunus and Antiochus III the Great."The king of the north" = Antiochus III, the Great."The king of the south" = Ptolemy IV Philopator.Ptolemy IV defeated the much larger army of Antiochus III at the Battle of Raphia in 217.Daniel 11:13-17"The king of the south" = Ptolemy V Epiphanes."The king of the north" = Antiochus III.Antiochus III gives his daughter Cleopatra I to Ptolemy V, in hopes of permanent influence in Egypt.Verse 14a: "And in those times many will rise against the king of the south".At this time, many of the Egyptians began rebelling against the ruling Grecian family and began rioting and defying them.Verse 14b: "And the sons of the violent ones of your people shall rise up to establish the vision, but they shall stumble". (LIT)This verse speaks of the violent sons of Daniel's nation. Many commentators suggest that these people will stand up against the king of the south, but this text foretells that these people will lift themselves up to establish the vision. They were called a violent people by Ezekiel who in this way described them as shedders of blood. (18:10a) The word vision [in Aramaic chezev; in Hebrew chazown] is used in the Book of Daniel e.g. in: 7:1,2,7,13,15; 8:1,2,13,15,17,26; 9:24; 10:14; 11:14. All of these visions prophecy of the future persecution of God's nation, that would be fulfilled in the distant future. (Daniel 8:17; 10:14)What kind of violent people would lift themselves in the ancient time, to fulfill the inspired visions and prophecies before their time? The First Book of the Maccabees clearly indicates the Maccabees as being these violent people. (1:54; 6:7) Until now, many commentators believe that the Maccabees fulfilled the prophecies of the Book of Daniel. But Jesus said that the vision which concerns the abomination of desolation and the persecutions of God's nation will be fulfilled in the future. (Compare Matthew 24:15; Revelation 13:1-8)Verse 11:16b "and he standeth in the desirable land, and it is wholly in his hand". (YLT)After one hundred years, Palestine again changed hands. The Seleucid king, Antiochus III, took control of Palestine c. 200 B.C.E.Daniel 11:18Antioch III against the Roman Empire."Ruler" = Lucius Cornelius, the Roman general.The Romans humbled him (191) at Thermopylae and again at Magnesia (190).Daniel 11:19aSubsequently, Antiochus was forced to campaign within his own lands to stop his satraps from declaring themselves independent rulers.Daniel 11:19b"He shall stumble and fall, and shall not be found" = end of the period of greatness for the Seleucid Empire. (Compare Revelation 18:21; Jeremiah 51:64)Daniel 11:20"And stood up on his station hath one causing an exactor to pass over the honour of the kingdom, and in a few days he is destroyed, and not in anger, nor in battle". (YLT)"The king of the north" = Caesar Augustus. The first Roman emperor."The king of the south" not on the scene.In 2 B.C., Augustus sent out "an exactor" by ordering a registration, or census, most likely to learn the size of the population for purposes of taxation and military conscription. Because of this decree, Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem for registration, resulting in Jesus' birth at that foretold location. (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1-12)Daniel didn’t prophecy that "the king of the north" would die "after a few days" from this event, but would die in the undetermined future "after a few days". In the end of July, in the year 14 A.D., August left Rome. He took a vacation in his old age and health. On the 19th of August, after a short sickness, he "passed away peacefully, not feeling any pain". While traveling in Campania, Augustus died "in a few days", neither "in anger" at an assassin's hands nor "in warfare", but after a short illness.Many say that "the king of the north" is Seleucus IV Philopater, who sent out his finance minister, Heliodorus to collect taxes. But Seleucus was murdered in a conspiracy engineered by Heliodorus. It is said that the king here was to however die a natural death (not one of anger or of battle). Therefore, this writing does not conform to Seleucus IV. Also, verse 21 cannot carry over to the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.Daniel 11:21-23Verse 21: "And in his place shall arise a despised. And they will not give him the royal majesty. He will come in a time of peace and will seize the kingdom through duplicity"."The king of the north" = Tiberius 14-37."The king of the south" not on the scene."The ruler of the covenant" = Jesus [Yeshua].Augustus only chose him after more favored heirs had died.The New Encyclopoedia Britannica says, Tiberius played politics with the Senate and did not allow it to name him emperor for almost a month [after Augustus died]". He told the Senate that no one but Augustus was capable of carrying the burden of ruling the Roman Empire and asked the senators to restore the republic by entrusting such authority to a group of men rather than to one man. "Not daring to take him at his word", wrote historian Will Durant, "the Senate exchanged bows with him until at last he accepted power". Durant added: "The play was well acted on both sides. Tiberius wanted the principate, or he would have found some way to evade it; the Senate feared and hated him, but shrank from reestablishing a republic based, like the old, upon theoretically sovereign assemblies". Thus, Tiberius took hold of the kingdom by means of duplicity.Verse 22: "And the arms of the flood shall be swept from before his face, and they will be broken, and also the ruler of a covenant".In 15 A.D., Germanicus led his forces against the German hero Arminius, with some success. However, the limited victories were won at great cost, and Tiberius thereafter aborted operations in Germany. Instead, by promoting civil war, he tried to prevent German tribes from uniting. Tiberius generally favoured a defensive foreign policy and focused on strengthening the frontiers. This stance was fairly successful. In this way "the arms of the flood" were controlled and were "broken"."Broken" too was "the Leader of the covenant" = Jesus [Yeshua]. (Compare Isaiah 55:4; Daniel 9:25, 27a)Verse 23: "And after they join themselves to him, he will do guile, and he will exalt himself, and will do strong by a few of the people".The oath of loyalty bound the army and officials to the Tiberius."Sextus Pompeius and Sextus Apuleius, the consuls, were the first to swear allegiance to Tiberius Caesar, and in their presence the oath was taken by Seius Strabo and Caius Turranius, respectively the commander of the praetorian cohorts and the superintendent of the corn supplies. Then the Senate, the soldiers and the people did the same".Those few people were the Roman Praetorian Guard, encamped close to Rome's walls. Its proximity intimidated the Senate and helped Tiberius keep in check any uprisings against his authority among the populace. By means of some 10.000 guards Tiberius remained mighty.Daniel 11:24"In a time of peace he will come against [sense: will attack] the fattest [sense: mighty] of the land, and he will do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers: prey, and spoil, and substance, their possession he will distribute. And against strongholds he will devise his schemes until the appointed time"."The king of the north" = Tiberius and next emperors."The king of the south" not on the scene.The word "mashman" refers here to fattest [sense: mighty]. (Compare Ps.78:31 and Is.10:16)Because he was very suspicious, Emperor Tiberius, extended the law of laesa majestas. Many senators were put to death on a charge of treason against the emperor. For the people of the provinces, it was a peaceful and well-ordered time.Daniel 11:25,26aAurelian (270-275) against Queen Zenobia of Palmyra ["the king of the south"].The Palmyrene army occupied Egypt in 269 B.C.E. under the pretext of making it secure for Rome. Zenobia wanted to make Palmyra the dominant city in the east and wanted to rule over Rome's eastern provinces. Alarmed by her ambition, Aurelian aroused "his power and his heart" to proceed against Zenobia.Zenobia valiantly defended it, but without success. She and her son fled toward Persia, only to be captured by the Romans at the Euphrates River. The Palmyrenes surrendered their city in 272 B.C. Aurelian spared Zenobia, making her the prize feature in his triumphal procession through Rome in 274 B.C. She spent the rest of her life as a Roman matron.Aurelian himself 'did not stand because of schemes against him.' In 275 B.C., he set out on an expedition against the Persians. While he was waiting in Thrace for the opportunity to cross the straits into Asia Minor, those who 'ate his food' carried out schemes against him and brought about his "breakdown". He was going to call his secretary Eros to account for irregularities. Eros, however, forged a list of names of certain officers marked for death. The sight of this list moved the officers to plot Aurelian's assassination and to murder him.Daniel 11:26b. (Compare Daniel 9:26b)"and his army will be flooded and many will fall down slain".Decline and fall of the Roman Empire."The strength of Aurelian had crushed on every side the enemies of Rome. After his death they seemed to revive with an increase of fury and of numbers".Daniel 11:27"And both these kings, their hearts (will be) to do mischief, and at one table (they) will speak a lie. But it will not succeed, for yet (the) finish to (the) appointed time." (11:27, literal translation)It certainly suggests that the verse does not concern to the ancient times. It describes the end of times right before the appointed time. (Compare Daniel 11:29a)Russia and England (from second half of the XIX Century).Egyptian history dates back to about 4000 B.C., when the kingdoms of upper and lower Egypt, already highly sophisticated, were united. Egypt's golden age coincided with the 18th and 19th dynasties (16th to 13th century B.C.), during which the empire was established. Persia conquered Egypt in 525 B.C.E, Alexander the Great subdued it in 332 B.C.E., and then the Ptolemaic dynasty ruled the land until 30 B.C., when Cleopatra, last of the line, committed suicide and Egypt became a Roman, then Byzantine, province. Arab caliphs ruled Egypt from 641 until 1517, when the Turks took it for their Ottoman Empire. Napoléon's armies occupied the country from 1798 to 1801. In 1805, Mohammed Ali, leader of a band of Albanian soldiers, became pasha of Egypt. After completion of the Suez Canal in 1869, the French and British took increasing interest in Egypt. British troops occupied Egypt in 1882, and British resident agents became its actual administrators, though it remained under nominal Turkish sovereignty. In 1914, this fiction was ended, and Egypt became a protectorate of Britain.Russia grew expanding its power over huge regions, and by the end of XIX century Russia possessed territories from the mouths of the Danube and Visla in the west, reached the Pacific Ocean in the east, began in the Euroasian tundra in the north and had borders with Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan and China in the south.In 1907, an Anglo-Russian agreement divided Persia into English and Russian spheres of influence, a large Russian sphere in the north, covering the most valuable part of the country, a neutral sphere in the centre, and a smaller British sphere in the southeast.Daniel 11:28"And (he) ["the king of the north"] will go back (to) his land with great wealth; and his heart (will be) against the holy covenant; and will act effectively; and turned back to his own land." (literal translation)History of Russia after World War II.The passage contains enough details, which allow for a correct interpretation.Daniel foretells here that "the king of the north" [Russia] will not only be successful in WW II, but also that he returns to his land with a great amount of goods. If only Hitler had listened to Mussolini and the Japanese, who in 1943 advised him to stop military actions, the prophetic detail would have never been fulfilled.Daniel 11:28b"and turned back to his own land".The break-up of the Soviet Union and return to the country of Russian garrisons (the liquidation of Russian military bases).The prophecy of Daniel 11 is the key to understanding what is going to happen in the future.The latter statements Jesus' and Daniel's are alike. Matthew 24:5,6 (Luke 21:8,9) = Daniel 11:27,28 = XIX, XX, XXI Century, before the World War III"Many for will come in the name of me, saying: 'I am the anointed'; and many they will mislead." (Matthew 24:5, literal translation)"He said, 'Watch out that you don't get led astray, for many will come in my name, saying, 'I AM,' and, 'The time is at hand.' Therefore don't follow them." (Luke 21:8, WEB) "Don't be afraid when you hear of wars and revolutions; such things must happen first, but they do not mean that the end is near." (Luke 21:9, GNB)Matthew 24:7 = Daniel 11:29,30 = WW IIIMatthew 24:15 = Daniel 11:31 = "trampling of Jerusalem" [the great tribulation of Christian minorities; compare Revelation 11:2]Matthew 24:29 = Daniel 11:40 = WW IVDaniel 11:29a"At (the) appointed time (he) will return, and will enter into (the) south."1. Russian troops will be station abroad again.2. "The king of the north" will come into the South.Daniel 11:29b,30"But will not be as (the) former or as (the) latter. For will come against him (the) dwellers of coastlands of Kittim, and (he) will be humbled, and will return." (literal translation)1. The West will come against the Russia.2. "The king of the north" will be humbled, and will return.(Compare Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:4)Daniel 11:311. The nations will trample "the holy city" [of those who belong to Christ] forty-two months. (Compare Revelation 11:2,7; 13:5,7a; Luke 21:24b; Matthew 24:21,22; Daniel 7:25; 9:27; Isaiah 29:1-8,20-24; Matthew 13:40-43,49,50; Ezekiel 13:8-16,20-23; 34:10; 2 Thessalonians 2:8b; Isaiah 28:1-4,17-22; 6:13; Malachi 3:1-5)The religious organizations from among Christian minorities which Jesus compared to "the weeds", will be "burned". (Mt.13:30) Yahoueh will protect the righteous ones. (Re.11:1) "The wheat" will be put into "the storehouse" after the tribulation – which means that "the sons of the kingdom" will become gathered and unified at that time. They will shine as brightly as the sun after the tribulation.2. "The abomination of desolation" [the World Government] will be set up. (Revelation 13:7b; Daniel 12:11)Daniel 11:32-35Details of their future global religious persecution. (Compare Daniel 8:11,12; Revelation 6:9-11; 12:15)Daniel 11:36-39Russia before the World War IV. (Compare Ezekiel 38:7)Daniel 11:40The World War IV. (Compare Luke 21:25; Isaiah 5:26-30; Matthew 24:29; Daniel 7:11; Revelation 13:3; Ezekiel 32:2-16; Habakkuk 1:5-17; Revelation 6:12; Zephaniah 1:14-18; Joel 2:1-11,31, ASV)Daniel 11:41Occupation of Israel. (Compare Ezekiel 39:23-29)Daniel 11:42,43The triumph of Russia. (Compare Isaiah 10:12-15)Daniel 11:44,45Russia again will attack Israel. (Compare Daniel 12:1; Joel 2:20; Isaiah 14:4-27; Habakkuk 3:3-16)"Many will study, therefore understanding will be multiplied". (Daniel 12:4b)
     
  2. abom

    abom New Member

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    Yes these are very interesting to work out concerning the abomination of desolation , the NIV has a Bible commentary that tries to say who this is, but based on incorrect assumptions. we know the starting kings in Daniel 11, but not exactly the ending kings or dates. Some one would need a thourough knowledge of history from 500 bc to 1900 ad to work this out.
     
  3. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    Daniel 11:40 seems to move forward to "the time of the end" and 12v1 confirms this as being the end of this age, so the last part of the prophecy seems to me to speak of the leaders of the Muslim people (Iran?) as "the king of the South", while the "King of the North" seems to me to be Russia, though "Philadelphia Trumpet" people say it's Catholic Europe, I disagree:"And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.(if the Muslim Brotherhood gains control in Egypt, they will be with "the King of the South").But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."(Dan.11:40 - 12:1)Does anyone have any further / better information on these verses?
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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  5. granpa

    granpa New Member

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    My personal theory is that magog is india and God is calling the Aryan white supremacist leader of rome (either Meshech or Tubal) a (black) hypocrite. 'Gog' is the name (or title) given to this leader.

    http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Outline_of_the_Bible#Biblical_geography
     
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