Apostasy

[RaddSpencer]

(SealedEternal;51123)
Interesting research. People often site the so-called "Church fathers" as though they had some sort of special insight into the scriptures, but the fact is that any of us have the ability to understand His Word just as well as they did, and probably better if one has His Spirit in them. These guys were clearly heretics when you compare their writing with God's Word, as you have, which illustrates why we are told by Christ to trust His word, and not the traditions of men. This was the error of the Pharisees that has been largely repeated in what is called "Christianity" today.SealedEternal
Talk about disrespecting your forefathers.without these men, we would have never known Jesus Christ.http://www.gotquestions.org/early-church-fathers.htmlThey were there in the beginning, when Christianity was most vulnerable to heresies and persecution by Rome. And yet you look down on them.

 

[Christina]

(winsome;51164)
Irtenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. So his credentials were good.Perhaps Paul got it all wrong. After all we only have his word for it.
I agree with you, he was also the leader of the chuch of Smyrna that was one of the churches God was well pleased with I agree with the premise of this first post but disagree with some of the examples used I think they are being somwhat misunderstood by you Richard, the church did start moving away from what was taught but it was a process and I think its a mistake to throw it all out for a few minor things. There is much to gleen from these early writting It wasnt til later it got futher off track.It was Augistine who really started making changes for mostly political reasons.

 

[SealedEternal]

(RaddSpencer;51212)
Talk about disrespecting your forefathers.without these men, we would have never known Jesus Christ.http://www.gotquestions.org/early-church-fathers.htmlThey were there in the beginning, when Christianity was most vulnerable to heresies and persecution by Rome. And yet you look down on them.
There were true Christians in the beginning and there were apostates; just as there are today . I don't look down on those true brethren who suffered for the faith, but I do on the self proclaimed experts who perverted it. Often it is the greatest perverters that get the most respect among men, while we don't even know the names of many of the most faithful brethren. In any case, I know Jesus Christ through His Word, and not due to religious leaders of any time period, and any so-called "Church father" who contradicts His Word did not have His Spirit in them. The op illustrated that some of the best known so-called "Church fathers" never knew Him.SealedEternal

 

[RaddSpencer]

(SealedEternal;51217)
There were true Christians in the beginning and there were apostates; just as there are today . I don't look down on those true brethren who suffered for the faith, but I do on the self proclaimed experts who perverted it. Often it is the greatest perverters that get the most respect among men, while we don't even know the names of many of the most faithful brethren. In any case, I know Jesus Christ through His Word, and not due to religious leaders of any time period, and any so-called "Church father" who contradicts His Word did not have His Spirit in them. The op illustrated that some of the best known so-called "Church fathers" never knew Him.SealedEternal
Apostates? Well, thats your opinion. You don't know their personal relationships with Christ. However, I have a problem with your treatment of these brothers. Even if their theology was not quite on par -- that doesn't make them apostate.Apostasy (IPA: /əˈpɒstəsi/) is the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApostasyWhen dealing with your brother in Christ, you need to assume the best, not the worst. Would YOU like to be labeled a false prophet or an apostate --- probably not. I truly am amazed how Christians treat fellow Christians. Christians seem to have no qualms manhandling their brother or sister's person or character. They have no qualms calling someone an apostate, false prophet, loser, etc.. or whatever else. Even if they don't know them personally!!!According to your definition, Apollos was also an apostate: 24Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 26and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to (Y)the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace, 28for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. Acts 18:24-28God looks at the heart. He looks for how you treat your fellow man. If your heart seeks Him, everything else will fall into place! If your brother is seeking after God, help him with his theology in a loving manner! 20 If a person says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar. If a person does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God Whom he has not seen? 21 We have these words from Him. If you love God, love your brother also.1 John 4:20

 

[RichardBurger]

(RaddSpencer;51212)
Talk about disrespecting your forefathers.without these men, we would have never known Jesus Christ.http://www.gotquestions.org/early-church-fathers.htmlThey were there in the beginning, when Christianity was most vulnerable to heresies and persecution by Rome. And yet you look down on them.
Jesus said you would know them by their fruit. The history of the RCC is one of murder and greed. I think they deserve what they get.Richard

 

[RaddSpencer]

(RichardBurger;51239)
Jesus said you would know them by their fruit. The history of the RCC is one of murder and greed. I think they deserve what they get.Richard
And you think we are any different from our forefathers?1. We allow abortion to go on unabated.2. We cause harm to our brother in Christ, with no second thoughts or regrets.3. We turn unbelievers away in droves due to our extreme hypocrisy and legalistic attitude.4. We are Christians on Sunday, but pagan hedonists during the rest of the 7 day week period.5. We allowed little boys to get molested by priests.6. and ON and ON.We frankly don't care about unbelievers, at all, in the United States.If you think they deserve what they get --- brother, we will also be in that same line in the end of days.

 

[Gareth]

(RaddSpencer;51242)
If you think they deserve what they get --- brother, we will also be in that same line in the end of days.
Amen. This is true, we have to care!

 

[SealedEternal]

(RaddSpencer;51222)
Apostates? Well, thats your opinion. You don't know their personal relationships with Christ.
I know what they wrote about Him, and whether or not it matched up with what His Word says.
However, I have a problem with your treatment of these brothers. Even if their theology was not quite on par -- that doesn't make them apostate.
Jesus Himself said that most who call Him Lord, Lord have never known Him, while only the few actually do. The many who are on the wrong path are not my brothers. I'm not just talking about Theology here that was "not quite on par" but apostates who taught a "gospel" that contradicts the one Christ gave us.
Apostasy (IPA: /əˈpɒstəsi/) is the formal abandonment or renunciation of one's religion,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ApostasyWhen dealing with your brother in Christ, you need to assume the best, not the worst. Would YOU like to be labeled a false prophet or an apostate --- probably not.
I don't assume anything. I listen to their position and compare it to Christ's, and if theirs is contradictory to His I declare them apostate.
I truly am amazed how Christians treat fellow Christians. Christians seem to have no qualms manhandling their brother or sister's person or character. They have no qualms calling someone an apostate, false prophet, loser, etc.. or whatever else. Even if they don't know them personally!!!
I don't care about their personality, I'm only evaluating their doctrine. If they teach a gospel that is different than the one Christ and His apostles taught, then they are not His.
According to your definition, Apollos was also an apostate: 24Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 26and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to (Y)the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace, 28for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. Acts 18:24-28God looks at the heart. He looks for how you treat your fellow man. If your heart seeks Him, everything else will fall into place! If your brother is seeking after God, help him with his theology in a loving manner!
That's what we are doing here, but we have to be honest and explain what the error is and why before it can be straightened out.
20 If a person says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar. If a person does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God Whom he has not seen? 21 We have these words from Him. If you love God, love your brother also.1 John 4:20
And love is telling the truth and helping people be freed from their error, it isn't patting them on the back and saying that any old gospel will do.SealedEternal

 

[SealedEternal]

(RaddSpencer;51242)
And you think we are any different from our forefathers?1. We allow abortion to go on unabated.2. We cause harm to our brother in Christ, with no second thoughts or regrets.3. We turn unbelievers away in droves due to our extreme hypocrisy and legalistic attitude.4. We are Christians on Sunday, but pagan hedonists during the rest of the 7 day week period.5. We allowed little boys to get molested by priests.6. and ON and ON.We frankly don't care about unbelievers, at all, in the United States.
Speak for yourself, because not all of us do these things. False Christians do, and Jesus said that encompasses the majority of professing Christians, but those who are truly born of God don't fit that category.SealedEternal

 

[RichardBurger]

(RaddSpencer;51242)
And you think we are any different from our forefathers?1. We allow abortion to go on unabated.2. We cause harm to our brother in Christ, with no second thoughts or regrets.3. We turn unbelievers away in droves due to our extreme hypocrisy and legalistic attitude.4. We are Christians on Sunday, but pagan hedonists during the rest of the 7 day week period.5. We allowed little boys to get molested by priests.6. and ON and ON.We frankly don't care about unbelievers, at all, in the United States.If you think they deserve what they get --- brother, we will also be in that same line in the end of days.
Really! I don't think I have killed anyone, not physically or verbally. But there are some on this forum that would verbally kill anyone that doesn't believe as they do, just like the RCC did. To them, no one can have a different opinion than they do.Richard

 

[winsome]

(RichardBurger;51239)
Jesus said you would know them by their fruit. The history of the RCC is one of murder and greed. I think they deserve what they get.Richard
(RichardBurger;51266)
Really! I don't think I have killed anyone, not physically or verbally. But there are some on this forum that would verbally kill anyone that doesn't believe as they do, just like the RCC did. To them, no one can have a different opinion than they do.Richard

Do you want to get into how many Catholics were killed by protestants in the ReformationOr how many Africans were enslaved and died under protestant "christians"Or how many "witches" were burnt by protestants.Get the chip off your shoulder Richard.

 

[FoC]

There were true Christians in the beginning and there were apostates; just as there are today .
The ongoing problem with you, Sealedeternal, is that you seem to think that anyone who disagrees with YOUR understanding of Gods word is immediately apostate and going to hell.That is complete nonsense and totally unscriptural. 1 Corinthians 3 shows us what happens when a man builds upon the wrong foundation. The man himself WILL be saved, but only as one escaping the flames.I know that OSASers like to use that passage for their doctrines, but it has nothing to do with OSAS, but is instead about not teaching a perfect doctrine.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God gives the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are coworkers with God; you are God's field, you are God's building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise architect I have laid the foundation, but another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay, other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work shall be made manifest; for the Day shall reveal it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall test each one's work, as to what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built remains, he shall receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, but so as through fire. (1Co 3:6-15 EMTV)​

No other FOUNDATION can be laid, but if anyone builds ON that foundation contrarily his teachings will be tested and if they are found contrary, the man will be saved, but by the skin of his teeth.It does not show that he is an apostate for having misunderstood some details. The Early Church Fathers were all over the place on doctrine, that much is factual.Even on topics like divorce and remarriage they disagreed on so many points that its quite easily discerned that they WERE just fallible men like ALL of us here...including the mighty Sealedeternal.They werent apostates. They were men who, just like you and me and every other person on this forum, thought they had figured it all out even when they hadnt.*IF* the ECF's were 'inspired' then there should not have been so much disharmony between their teachings....but there clearly is.And so I agree that they are great to read and for some ideas about the meaning of scriptures, but they are not Christs chosen apostles who were included in what has been canonized and therefore cannot be taken AS Gods infallible word...and this is backed, again, by the fact that they did not all agree on every point of doctrine, which men inspired of God should and would.This doesnt mean they are heretics or apostate.It simply means that they needed to spend more time learning and less time insisting playing teacher.As a funny side note, Sealedeternal here calls them all apostate, but many persons of the same doctrine he is part of rely very heavily on these ECF's to claim that the whole early church prohibited remarriage.So it would seem that while SE is prohibiting remarriage and calling the ECF's 'apostate', his comrades are prohibiting it also and using these 'apostates' as very large part of their doctrinal foundation.

 

[RichardBurger]

(winsome;51325)
Do you want to get into how many Catholics were killed by protestants in the ReformationOr how many Africans were enslaved and died under protestant "christians"Or how many "witches" were burnt by protestants.Get the chip off your shoulder Richard.
I have no chip on my shoulder. I have some writing that condemn these also. Do you want me to post them.Richard

 

[FoC]

(winsome;51325)
Do you want to get into how many Catholics were killed by protestants in the ReformationOr how many Africans were enslaved and died under protestant "christians"Or how many "witches" were burnt by protestants.Get the chip off your shoulder Richard.
Absolutely.Luther has said some godless things about Jews.Calvin seemed to have a cruel streak as well.NO man is infallible or beyond godless behavior regardless of what that man thinks of himself.I have the same respect for the ECFs as I do the Reformers as I do for all who claim the name of Christ. But I do not think a single one of them is infallible or beyond sin

 

[FoC]

Sealedeternal:"..and any so-called "Church father" who contradicts His Word did not have His Spirit in them.
Interesting assertion.So if you and I were to get into a discussion here and I can show that your views bend the intent of Gods word in some way or another, then we can assume that you dont have the Spirit in you ?Does David want to come out and play for a while ? Im game if you are