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Apostasy

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by RichardBurger, Jul 3, 2008.

  1. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (kriss;54558)
    perhaps so ..maybe not... do you know ALL your ancestors back to 70 AD did they come from Europe? If so how can you say one way or other??We have forgotten who we are because we became christians some 1900 years ago and lost all contact with any Jewish roots. We may not know who we are but I assure you God does, but either way gentiles are grafted in. But none of this however Change's what we Christians are called in prophecy to identify whom is being spoken of. Ephraim and Mannasha are Britan and the U.S. including Canada and Australia. Being saved by God grace is true of every human and has nothingto do with any of this. Remember Abraham was to be the father of many nations(Gen 17:4 ) not just Israel
    All of this is just your speculations and is based on no fact at all and you want others to follow them. Fat chance!All the people in the world were Gentiles until God started another group of people he called Jews. Since then there has been two groups of people on the earth, Jews and Gentiles. What you want to do is say that there are no Gentiles on the earth and God has never saved the Gentiles, only Jews.Amazing!Richard [​IMG]
     
  2. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (kriss;54558)
    We may not know who we are but I assure you God does, but either way gentiles are grafted in.
    If you know anything about plant grafting you know that the plant being graphed into the main plant, that contains the root, does not change.A wild olive tree branch grafted into a cultivated olive tree remains a wild olive tree branch. It is just being fed from the same root as the cultivated olive tree.No! Gentiles are not changed to Jews. But we share the same root and that root is Jesus.Richard [​IMG]
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You are missing the entire point you are right about the tree, Christianity has is roots in judism thats a fact and you say a tree can not change its roots Jews and christian follow the same God same law same prophets the difference is they are still waiting for the messiah We know he already came and will return when he does they will come to understand and Jew Christian and gentile will follow Christ. None of this changes the fact that in prophecy for identification we are called the scattered tribes part of the true whole house of Israel . with the largest being Britan and Us(Eph. and man.)
     
  4. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (kriss;54609)
    None of this changes the fact that in prophecy for identification we are called the scattered tribes part of the true whole house of Israel . with the largest being Britan and Us(Eph. and man.)
    What Bible are you reading??No where in my Bible does it say the Gentiles are the scattered tribes part of the true whole house of Israel.The truth is that you are saying Christian are spritual Israel and they certainly aren't.Richard [​IMG]
     
  5. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Spiritual Israel??Many like to use Rom 11:13-22 to prove that the Church, the Body of Christ, is spiritual Israel and that we were grafted into "ISRAEL." Nothing could be further from the truth.13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.In the above, Israel is the olive tree. The branches of the olive tree (Israel) consist of "believing Jews" (natural branches) and "unbelieving Jews." The branches that are cut away are "unbelieving Jews." What is grafted in are branches from a wild olive tree, "those under the grace of God". Do these branches produce the same product as the natural olive tree branches? No, they still produce wild olives, therefore they really have not become a natural part of the olive tree, BUT they draw their nourishment from the ROOT, which is Jesus Christ. (Rom 11:18)In the above, Israel is the "olive tree", the Body of Christ (Jews and Gentiles on equal footing) are "the wild olive tree branches", and the root (source of nourishment) is Christ Jesus. So you see the fruit of the wild olive tree hasn't changed into the fruit of the olive tree. The Body of Christ has never become Israel.The "Body of Christ" is not Spiritual Israel but "the one new man" that God MADE from two set aside peoples of Rm. 11:32. Ephesians 214 For he is our peace, who hath made both one (Jew and Gentile), and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body (the Body of Christ) by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.The Body of Christ wasn't in existence when Christ walked upon the earth and wasn't MADE until AFTER Saul/Paul was converted.Jesus said;John 10:15-42 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.(NKJ)Richard [​IMG]
     
  6. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Spiritual Israel:From: http://www.bereanbiblechurch.com/studies/study88.htmlAre we today, in the dispensation of the grace of God, spiritual Israel? No, not in any way. The body of Christ is a distinct organism designed to be the Agency through which God is making his will known today. Again, religion makes at least three errors in making the body of Christ spiritual Israel today. Let's begin with the first one.FAILURE # 1 - Failure to rightly divide the word of truth.VERSE: 2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.*COMMENT: Failure to give to Israel what belongs to Israel and thereby giving to the body of Christ what belongs to the body of Christ results only in confusion. Consider if you will for just a moment several points of contrast between Israel and the body of Christ.Israel had an earthly hope while the BOC has an heavenly hopeDan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;*Israel was looking for a physical, visible, earthly, Davidic kingdom with Christ sitting on the throne in Jerusalem!*while the BOC has an heavenly hope2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;1 Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.The church the body of Christ has a heavenly hope while the nation of Israel has an earthly hope. This is illustrated in the following verse. Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven (the body of Christ ), and which are on earth (the nation of Israel) ; even in him:This is only one of many distinctions arrived at by dispensational application of the scriptures… the only method of bible study that makes sense and the only one of which God approves.For more distinctions please click on this link: http://www.bereanbiblechurch.com/studies/study40.html which will take you to our study titled: Distinct Differences Derived Through Dispensational Bible Study.FAILURE # 2 - Failure to acknowledge Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles Paul, not Peter, nor any of the rest of the "Kingdom" apostles, was THE APOSTLE to the Gentiles. I didn't say that, GOD said that.The sooner organized religion, traditionalist, and denominationalist, figure this out the sooner the "spiritual Israel phenomenon will disappear.Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:1 Cor 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God… Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)1 Tim 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.2 Tim 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.Can there be any doubt? Those who desire to be "under the law" and to place others there too have to do so in the light of the plain teaching of scripture.The 12 tribes of Israel had their 12 apostles - The ONE body of Christ has it's ONE apostle. When you apply this information to the doctrine of us being spiritual Israel that doctrine disappears. - Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Paul, not the 12, is our pattern today…. 1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.For more information on this topic see our study - "Do We Make To Much Of Paul". The link is: http://www.bereanbiblechurch.com/studies/study51.html*FAILURE # 3 - Failure to recognize the distinctiveness of the church the body of Christ*Israel has been set aside. - Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in…. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes…. Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.There is no denying the fact that Israel has been set aside and blinded and will remain in that condition until the catching away of the church the body of Christ.The body of Christ does not…keep the law of Moses talk in unknown tongues sell all they have circumcise heal the sick raise the dead look for signs get physical curses for doing evil get physical blessings for doing good collect the tithe water baptize look for new Jerusalem work for salvation endure to the end go into the tribulation cast out demonsetc., etc,. etc..All these things belong to the nation of Israel!However the body of Christ …has all spiritual blessings has a heavenly hope has eternal life by grace through faith will not go through the wrath to come will get a personal escort off this planet by the Son Of God himself does preach the gospel of the Grace of God has personal, instant, access to God apart from a priest is complete in Christ is secure in Christ is baptized in Christ is circumcised in Christ is dead with Christ is risen with Christ is alive in Christ will rule in the heavens with Christ has victory over sin - right now is part of a total victory program - right now knows the will of God - right nowThese are things that relate ONLY to the church the body of Christ! And this is only a quick, random sampling!!ConclusionWe cannot be spiritual Israel simply because God has a prophesied program for them that will be accomplished out in the ages to come. It is a visible, physical, earthly, Davidic kingdom with Christ sitting on his throne in Jerusalem. The body of Christ has the task of being God's agency today proclaiming salvation by grace through faith based upon the finished cross work of Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. At the end of this age the BOC will be "caught up" to heaven to rule and reign there.Two separate programs, two separate messages and two separate spheres of influence.Our apostle is Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, writing in the dispensation of the grace of God. He is our pattern. We follow him as we have been directed. All confusion disappears when we follow God's man (Paul) and God's message in God's time.
     
  7. watt

    watt New Member

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    IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRITHERE I AM AGAIN TO SHARE THE TRUTH OF GOD LOVEDear friends,You are so good with THE BIBLE, but Please...as a real CHRISTIAN we cannot based on our own ways of thinking. SEARCH FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD...HIS KINGDOM IS SPIRIT. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY THOSE WHO INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT...THEREFORE WE MUST LET THE HOLY SPIRIT TO LEAD US AND TO TEACH US ABOUT EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE.THE TRUTH IS HERE.. ADD TO FAILURE 1 & 2THIS WHAT JESUS SAID :-Then JESUS came up and said to them, "I HAVE BEEN GIVEN ALL THE AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. GO, THEREFORE,AND MAKE DICIPLE S FROM ALL NATIONS. BAPTIZE THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND TEACH THEM TO FULFILL ALL THAT I HAVE COMMENDED YOU.I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS UNTIL THE END OF THIS WORLD." (MATTHEW 28 : 18-20)SEE!!! JESUS HAVE BEEN GIVEN ALL THE AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. AND HE PASSED TO HIS DICIPLES. BEAR IN MIND, JESUS DID NOT SAY "ALL THE AUTHORITY IN ISRAEL IS GIVEN TO ME" BUT JESUS SAID " I HAVE BEEN GIVEN ALL THE AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. SEE!!! IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTHFOR FAILURE 3:-NOW LISTEN TO JESUS AGAIN :-"Who are you, LORD?" Saul asked. "I AM JESUS, WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING," HE replied. "NOW GET UP AND GO INTO THE CITY, AND YOU WILL BE TOLD WHAT YOU MUST DO." (ATCS 9:5-6)SEE!! ST PAUL IS CHOSEN BY JESUS HIM SELF, NOT BY ME OR YOU OR ANYONE. WHEN JESUS SAID "I AM JESUS, WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING,"...TAKE NOTE "WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING" ACTUALLY JESUS WAS IN HEAVEN AND HOW COME HE SAY "WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING"??SEE!!HE IS REFERING TO HIS BODY. WHO ARE HIS BODY??? THEY ARE THE FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, WHO BELEIVE IN HIM...JESUS FORGIVE HIM AND GIVEN ST. PAUL INSTRUCTION TO OBEY...THAT MEAN ST. PAUL ALSO BECOME THE BODY OF CHRIST.JESUS IS THE ONE WHO GIVE ST. PAUL INSTRUCTION TO OBEY SO.. WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE JESUS?? MAY GOD FORGIVE OUR SIN.AMENFROM WATT
     
  8. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    In John 10:27, Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” (NKJV)We must clearly recognize that Satan is a master of deceit. He comes as an angel of light along with all of the appropriate enticements. As the age grows darker, more voices will be detrimental to the people of God. Those who reluctantly seek Him and don't intentionally desire to know Him will be easily swayed by numerous doctrinal errors.Satan doesn't knock on the front door and say, “Hi, I'm Satan.” He comes in the back door using the most cunning, convincing, persuasive language possible. The best way in the world to deceive believers is to cloak a message in religious language and declare that it conveys some new insight from God.That's why as believers we should continue to mature so that we don't need anyone else to teach us. We all, of course, need counsel occasionally, but on a regular basis we should be able to become humble before God and know the difference between God's voice and the devil's voice, between God's ways and the world's ways.Richard [​IMG]
     
  9. watt

    watt New Member

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    In The Name Of The Father And Of The Son And Of The Holy SpiritHere I Am Again To Share The Truth Of God Love(richardburger;54880)
    In John 10:27, Jesus Said, “my Sheep Hear My Voice, And I Know Them, And They Follow Me.” (nkjv)We Must Clearly Recognize That Satan Is A Master Of Deceit. He Comes As An Angel Of Light Along With All Of The Appropriate Enticements. As The Age Grows Darker, More Voices Will Be Detrimental To The People Of God. Those Who Reluctantly Seek Him And Don't Intentionally Desire To Know Him Will Be Easily Swayed By Numerous Doctrinal Errors.satan Doesn't Knock On The Front Door And Say, “hi, I'm Satan.” He Comes In The Back Door Using The Most Cunning, Convincing, Persuasive Language Possible. The Best Way In The World To Deceive Believers Is To Cloak A Message In Religious Language And Declare That It Conveys Some New Insight From God.That's Why As Believers We Should Continue To Mature So That We Don't Need Anyone Else To Teach Us. We All, Of Course, Need Counsel Occasionally, But On A Regular Basis We Should Be Able To Become Humble Before God And Know The Difference Between God's Voice And The Devil's Voice, Between God's Ways And The World's Ways.Richard [​IMG]
    You are Totally Right...We Should Continue To Be Mature... Not By Our Flesh But With The Help Of Holy Spirit. For The Devil Is Spirit...and We Cannot Use Flesh To Trace Him..for Sure He be Laughing And Will Come To You And Wispering To Your Ears "i Am Your Lord, Follow Me And What You Desire For The Thing In This World I Will Give It To You "Therefore We Need God And His Loving Kindness, With The Gift Of The Holy Spirit From The Lord..he Will Lead Us ,teach Us And Help Us To Recognize The Devil And The Satan.For God Nothing Is Impossible. Praise The Lord!!May God BlessAmenFrom Watt
     
  10. Thaddaeus

    Thaddaeus New Member

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    To all,I have just joined and began reading this thread. I'm not really sure just what theology seems to be presented here, but it does not sound very familiar with me. This dicotomy of Spiritual Isreal and the Church is not Biblical. As human beings, we have been made one. The renting of the Veil in the Temple joined both Jew and Greek (Gentile) into one man. thus there is no such thing as a Jew or a Gentile, but unbelievers and believers. The Jewish nation was destroyed in 70 AD. The Jewish nation, the physcial one, had served its purpose. The Church was born on Pentacost in Acts 2. It had three thousand members added at that time. Christ is the root, we are all the branches. Spiritual Isreal was superceded, suceeded by the Church. If we, as branches do not produce we will be cut off. Anyone can be grafted in upon faith, Repentance.There were some statments regarding some difference of dispensations. Yes, there are dispensations, but each succeeding one replaced the former. They do not overlap. Also, there is no such thing as an Earthly Kingdom of Christ. The Bible actually denies the whole concept. Here are the texts and scripture which support the above statments.The following verse literally puts all modern millennial theories into the wastebasket.In Acts 2:30-36, Peter relies upon the prophecies of David concerning Christ by showing that even though the Jews had crucified Jesus, God had raised him from the dead. Peter then shows that this (the death and resurrection of Jesus) fulfilled OT prophecies of David concerning the Messiah. First, David had prophesied of the death and resurrection of the Messiah (vv25-29). Second, David had prophesied that God had sworn with an oath that He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne (v30). In verse 31 Peter makes the application he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ. Peter draws a direct connection between Christ upon his throne and the resurrection of Christ. The kingdom of Christ, the reign of Christ, is not tied to his second coming but to his resurrection! In verse 32, the apostle proclaims that God raised up Jesus (showing a direct link between the Christ of prophecy and Jesus whom they had crucified), and in verse 33 he declares that this Jesus is now (present tense, as a consequence of his resurrection from the dead) by the right hand of God exalted (tying back once more to the prophecy of David that God would raise his seed to sit on his throne). What’s more, Peter says that in the resurrection and anointing of Jesus to sit on the throne of David he received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. Then verse 34, Peter announces that all those OT prophecies could not refer to David, for David ascended not into the heavens. The OT prophecies are fulfilled only in Jesus: he was put to death, he was resurrected, he was set upon the throne, he is in the heavens on [God’s] right hand. A future earthly throne? Not according to Peter. Christ is on his throne, and his throne is in heaven. And how long will he reign?According to verse 35, till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (1Cor. 15:26). Therefore, Christ is now reigning on his throne in heaven, and he will continue to reign there until death (the last enemy) is destroyed (1Cor. 15:25) at his coming (1Cor. 15:23-24). So, you see, there’s no room for a future earthly kingdom. If Christ is not reigning now upon his throne in heaven, then Peter’s sermon and application of OT prophecies makes no sense at all.
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    If your saying the church replaced Israel I seriously disagree please explain the joining of the two sticks in Eze37 This is the joining together of Jew and gentile/12 tribes under Christ it has not happened yet and will not until Christ returns and joins the two sticks. These two nations (religions) will be joined under Christ but not as of yet
     
  12. Thaddaeus

    Thaddaeus New Member

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    Kriss,
    If your saying the church replaced Israel I seriously disagree please explain the joining of the two sticks in Eze37 This is the joining together of Jew and gentile/12 tribes under Christ it has not happened yet and will not until Christ returns and joins the two sticks. These two nations (religions) will be joined under Christ but not as of yet
    It is Spiritual Isreal of which is being spoken of. It is the Church which supplanted Spiritual Isreal. The Isreal iteself becomes the world. The Church is gathered from among the nations, the world. The two became one at the renting of the veil in the temple at Christ's cruxifiction. All OT prophecies are pointing to the Messiah.
     
  13. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    (Thaddaeus;54909)
    Kriss, It is Spiritual Isreal of which is being spoken of. It is the Church which supplanted Spiritual Isreal. The Isreal iteself becomes the world. The Church is gathered from among the nations, the world. The two became one at the renting of the veil in the temple at Christ's cruxifiction. All OT prophecies are pointing to the Messiah.
    Most of the Christian Church is Israel, real Israel. There are Gentile Christians in the Church also.
     
  14. Thaddaeus

    Thaddaeus New Member

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    tomwebster,
    Most of the Christian Church is Israel, real Israel. There are Gentile Christians in the Church also.
    there are no distinctions. We are all ONE in Christ. Gal 3:28.
     
  15. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (tomwebster;54911)
    Most of the Christian Church is Israel, real Israel. There are Gentile Christians in the Church also.
    The church for today's dispensation of grace was not seen in the O.T. It has nothing to do with Israel.When the O.T. writers looked to the future they saw a mountain range in front of them and another higher one behind it. --- But they could not, and did not, see the valley behind the first mountain and before the second mountain. That valley is what we call the grace dispensation. -- We see this in the following;Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began.In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began.Obviously they are not writing about the same things.Richard [​IMG]
     
  16. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    Richard,You do know that the dispensation of grace will come to and end soon don't you.As far as Israel and the so called Lost Tribes, you are clueless.
     
  17. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (tomwebster;55018)
    Richard,You do know that the dispensation of grace will come to and end soon don't you.As far as Israel and the so called Lost Tribes, you are clueless.
    Yes, this dispensation of grace will end and God will turn back to Israel.Thank you for your vote of confidence. Because we disagree you think I am clueless. Perhaps I should make that comment towards you. What do you think? But I can't see any purpose in saying it. I don't need to inflate my ego by making stupid comments.Richard [​IMG]
     
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