Apostle Paul Taught a Rapture?

[Davy]

Here is what Apostle Paul taught about Christ's coming to gather His Church according to the KJV Bible...

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Paul tells the brethren to don't worry about the brethren that have already died in Christ. He calls those brethren being "asleep", which is a metaphor for the believer having died. (Those in Christ never die really; flesh death only releases our soul to be with The LORD.)


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

If we believe that Lord Jesus died and was raised from the dead, those also that sleep in Jesus that have died, He will bring with Him when He comes.

How's that going to happen? He will bring them with Him because they are already with Him since they died. Like Apostle Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 5, to be absent from the body is to be present with The LORD. There's two dimensions of existence, this earthly one, and the Heavenly one. We don't have just a flesh body only, we also have a spirit with soul, and that is what goes back to God at death of our flesh body.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

That word "prevent" actually means 'precede' per the Greek manuscript word (Strong's no.5348). Paul simply says that those of us still alive shall in no way precede... the asleep saints to the heavenly; why? Because they are already there, in Paradise. That's why Jesus will bring those with Him when He comes. And that's what the idea of the resurrection on the last day of this world is about.


16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Did you know that resurrection there is a time marker for this event of Christ's coming? It is, and it's about Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him from Heaven when He comes. That "trump of God" is the same "last trump" Paul taught of in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 about this event. It means the 7th Trumpet, which is the last trumpet per The Lord's Book of Revelation.

So far, Paul has only given the events of Christ's coming with His DESCENT to earth bringing the asleep resurrected saints with Him. So that is one group of saints Paul covers here.


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

This is a second group of saints Paul is covering that are gathered at the same time. These are the saints that are still alive on earth when Jesus comes on that "last trump". Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 that we shall not all asleep, but we all shall be changed, at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump. In that 1 Cor.15 chapter Paul was teaching about the glorious body that manifests at Christ's coming, a "spiritual body". That is what will happen when this "caught up" event happens to the saints still alive on earth, on that day.

Notice that Paul DID... give the timing of Christ's coming with that. When Paul covers the idea of the resurrection there, the raising of the dead, that... is about the resurrection to occur on the LAST DAY of this world (John 6:39-54; John 11:24). And that LAST DAY of this world means the very... last day, which is when God's cup of wrath, the final 7th Vial, will literally end this world by His consuming fire of 2 Peter 3:10.

 

[Keraz]

When Jesus Returns, He is accompanied by the angel army only. Matthew 16:27. Revelation 19:14 No one else.

He will bring with Him the souls of the martyrs who will have been killed by the 'beast'. Revelation 20:4
They will be resurrected as mortals and will co-rule with King Jesus for the next 1000 years.

Any fanciful notions of people going to live in heaven, coming back with Jesus and waving a light sabre, or receiving glorified bodies before the final Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, are all just fables that many have fallen for as Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[Trekson]

Hi Davy, I must disagree w/ a couple of lines. First, "That "trump of God" is the same "last trump" Paul taught of in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 about this event. It means the 7th Trumpet, which is the last trumpet per The Lord's Book of Revelation.

There is no evidence that Paul was aware of the 7 trumpets, the trump of God is from Zech. 9:14 where God himself blows the trumpet, not an angel so the timing is off on this one, imo.

Secondly, "When Paul covers the idea of the resurrection there, the raising of the dead, that... is about the resurrection to occur on the LAST DAY of this world (John 6:39-54; John 11:24). And that LAST DAY of this world means the very... last day, which is when God's cup of wrath, the final 7th Vial, will literally end this world by His consuming fire of 2 Peter 3:10

2 Pet. 3:10 seems to be a stand alone verse regarding the timing of that event, and it is never wise to build a theology on a single verse. The word used for "day" has also been used as, "days, daily, while" and is the same word used when Peter says a "day w/ the Lord is as a thousand years..." so this is not as definitive as you would like it to be. Most premillennialists believe that the timing of Peter's verse is after the millennium as mentioned in Rev. 21:1. Imo, when a single verse seems to not agree w/ a myriad of other verses, the majority of usage should rule.

 

[Timtofly]

Here is what Apostle Paul taught about Christ's coming to gather His Church according to the KJV Bible...

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Paul tells the brethren to don't worry about the brethren that have already died in Christ. He calls those brethren being "asleep", which is a metaphor for the believer having died. (Those in Christ never die really; flesh death only releases our soul to be with The LORD.)


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

If we believe that Lord Jesus died and was raised from the dead, those also that sleep in Jesus that have died, He will bring with Him when He comes.

How's that going to happen? He will bring them with Him because they are already with Him since they died. Like Apostle Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 5, to be absent from the body is to be present with The LORD. There's two dimensions of existence, this earthly one, and the Heavenly one. We don't have just a flesh body only, we also have a spirit with soul, and that is what goes back to God at death of our flesh body.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

That word "prevent" actually means 'precede' per the Greek manuscript word (Strong's no.5348). Paul simply says that those of us still alive shall in no way precede... the asleep saints to the heavenly; why? Because they are already there, in Paradise. That's why Jesus will bring those with Him when He comes. And that's what the idea of the resurrection on the last day of this world is about.


16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Did you know that resurrection there is a time marker for this event of Christ's coming? It is, and it's about Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him from Heaven when He comes. That "trump of God" is the same "last trump" Paul taught of in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 about this event. It means the 7th Trumpet, which is the last trumpet per The Lord's Book of Revelation.

So far, Paul has only given the events of Christ's coming with His DESCENT to earth bringing the asleep resurrected saints with Him. So that is one group of saints Paul covers here.


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

This is a second group of saints Paul is covering that are gathered at the same time. These are the saints that are still alive on earth when Jesus comes on that "last trump". Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 that we shall not all asleep, but we all shall be changed, at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump. In that 1 Cor.15 chapter Paul was teaching about the glorious body that manifests at Christ's coming, a "spiritual body". That is what will happen when this "caught up" event happens to the saints still alive on earth, on that day.

Notice that Paul DID... give the timing of Christ's coming with that. When Paul covers the idea of the resurrection there, the raising of the dead, that... is about the resurrection to occur on the LAST DAY of this world (John 6:39-54; John 11:24). And that LAST DAY of this world means the very... last day, which is when God's cup of wrath, the final 7th Vial, will literally end this world by His consuming fire of 2 Peter 3:10.

So you are amil?

Does Christ come at the first sound of the 7th Trumpet or 42 months later when it stops?

 

[Davy]

So you are amil?

Of course not. I keep to God's Word as written, which declares Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this world, and on that... day is when He begins His "thousand years" reign with His elect per Revelation 20. Call that what you will, the seminaries always like to categorize things to try and use positions like campaign buttons. Doesn't mean it shows they are intelligent in God's Word.

As for your second question, it does not align with God's written Word.

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy, I must disagree w/ a couple of lines. First, "That "trump of God" is the same "last trump" Paul taught of in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 about this event. It means the 7th Trumpet, which is the last trumpet per The Lord's Book of Revelation.

There is no evidence that Paul was aware of the 7 trumpets, the trump of God is from Zech. 9:14 where God himself blows the trumpet, not an angel so the timing is off on this one, imo.

Sorry, but moving the subject to whether or not Paul knew there would be 7 trumpets is irrelevant, because he said the "last trump"...

NT:2078
eschatos (es'-khat-os); a superlative probably from NT:2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):
KJV - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So saying that "last trump" is the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 is irrelevant to pre-trib's objections of what Paul knew or didn't know, because Lord Jesus revealed to 'us', His Church, that He comes on that 7th Trumpet and it is the LAST trumpet of Revelation. Trying to say it isn't is to disengage all common sense, which is what pre-trib theories demand one do.

Secondly, "When Paul covers the idea of the resurrection there, the raising of the dead, that... is about the resurrection to occur on the LAST DAY of this world (John 6:39-54; John 11:24). And that LAST DAY of this world means the very... last day, which is when God's cup of wrath, the final 7th Vial, will literally end this world by His consuming fire of 2 Peter 3:10

2 Pet. 3:10 seems to be a stand alone verse regarding the timing of that event, and it is never wise to build a theology on a single verse....

That above certainly is a totally false statement. God's Word gives more than one example of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", which is the day Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3:10!!!


Did you not know that the following "day of Christ" phrase is actually "day of the Lord" in the Greek?

2 Thess 2:1-2
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
KJV

What's the subject Paul addresses there? It's about the day of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

Then there's the Zechariah 14 example of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord".

Then there's Paul's Message in 1 Thess.5 about the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on that "day of the Lord", which is from the Old Testament prophets about the day of Christ's coming.

I could keep going on, and on, and on, to further show that you really don't know your Bible, but are just following a doctrine of men.

 

[Trekson]

Sorry, but moving the subject to whether or not Paul knew there would be 7 trumpets is irrelevant, because he said the "last trump"...

NT:2078
eschatos (es'-khat-os); a superlative probably from NT:2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):
KJV - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So saying that "last trump" is the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 is irrelevant to pre-trib's objections of what Paul knew or didn't know, because Lord Jesus revealed to 'us', His Church, that He comes on that 7th Trumpet and it is the LAST trumpet of Revelation. Trying to say it isn't is to disengage all common sense, which is what pre-trib theories demand one do.



That above certainly is a totally false statement. God's Word gives more than one example of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", which is the day Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3:10!!!


Did you not know that the following "day of Christ" phrase is actually "day of the Lord" in the Greek?

2 Thess 2:1-2
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
KJV

What's the subject Paul addresses there? It's about the day of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

Then there's the Zechariah 14 example of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord".

Then there's Paul's Message in 1 Thess.5 about the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on that "day of the Lord", which is from the Old Testament prophets about the day of Christ's coming.

I could keep going on, and on, and on, to further show that you really don't know your Bible, but are just following a doctrine of men.

Actually, I know more than you might think. Why do folks when, having something they believe in questioned, all of a sudden jump to the conclusion that other folks have to be spiritual idiots to have the audacity to challenge them. Well, here are some more unlearned thoughts. Zech. 14 is also post-mill as "the day of battle" will have been Armageddon. Yes, there are many prophecies regarding the day of the Lord which when understood opens one eyes to the fact that it will last over a thousand yrs. The day of the Lord begins w/ the signs of the sixth seal as prophesied in more than one book, continues thru the end of the 70th week and thru Armageddon, all the way through the millennium, ending after the time of Rev. 20:7-9.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Matt 25 says when the King shall come and all His sacredos ... sacredos can either mean holy angels or saints. Jerome interpreted it to mean holy angels and most translations have followed him.

I believe it is saints for Paul teaches that when He comes He brings us with Him. The implications of this are huge for understanding the last judgement.

The church John teaches is passed over from judgement into life. The church will not be judged at this judgement.

Who then are the righteous sheep?

 

[Keraz]

Matt 25 says when the King shall come and all His sacredos ... sacredos can either mean holy angels or saints. Jerome interpreted it to mean holy angels and most translations have followed him.

I believe it is saints for Paul teaches that when He comes He brings us with Him. The implications of this are huge for understanding the last judgement.

The church John teaches is passed over from judgement into life. The church will not be judged at this judgement.

Who then are the righteous sheep?

Jesus does not Return with any humans. Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 make that clear.

Jesus will separate the nations at His return, we see that in Revelation 16:14 and 19:21, where they are gathered for destruction.
Only after the Millennium are every individual Judged.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Jesus does not Return with any humans. Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 make that clear.

Jesus will separate the nations at His return, we see that in Revelation 16:14 and 19:21, where they are gathered for destruction.
Only after the Millennium are every individual Judged.

The word sacredos can be translated angels or saints, Revelations 16 is not the final judgement.

Keep saying the same thing, Paul says explicitly that when He comes to judge God will bring us with Him. That is plain and simple.
At the coming of the Lord the church is gathered to meet the Lord in the clouds "so shall we ever be with Him"

We are gathered at the coming of the Lord ... no judgement or not that judgement at least. we are passed over for that judgement, Christ was judged in our place.

 

[Davy]

Actually, I know more than you might think. Why do folks when, having something they believe in questioned, all of a sudden jump to the conclusion that other folks have to be spiritual idiots to have the audacity to challenge them. Well, here are some more unlearned thoughts. Zech. 14 is also post-mill as "the day of battle" will have been Armageddon. Yes, there are many prophecies regarding the day of the Lord which when understood opens one eyes to the fact that it will last over a thousand yrs. The day of the Lord begins w/ the signs of the sixth seal as prophesied in more than one book, continues thru the end of the 70th week and thru Armageddon, all the way through the millennium, ending after the time of Rev. 20:7-9.

Biblical ignorance becomes obvious when those who say they know, often go directly against even simple Scripture that is written. Thus if the shoe fits, wear it.

 

[Trekson]

Biblical ignorance becomes obvious when those who say they know, often go directly against even simple Scripture that is written. Thus if the shoe fits, wear it.

That's funny, when it's the bible that declares each of these things as being included in "the day of the Lord".

 

[Billy Evmur]

Jesus does not Return with any humans. Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 make that clear.

Jesus will separate the nations at His return, we see that in Revelation 16:14 and 19:21, where they are gathered for destruction.
Only after the Millennium are every individual Judged.

I'm glad you believe in the Mill

Believing in the Mill runs a coach and horses through the traditional teaching concerning the last judgement for it is obvious [or it should be] that the church which had been raptured, changed in a twinkling of the eye, put on immortality, reigned with Christ for 1. 000 years cannot possibly be subject to the last judgement. Whether righteous sheep or wicked goats.

Besides Jesus refers to them as a group separate from the sheep and the goats.

When rewarding the sheep He says "in-as-much as ye have done it to "one of these " the least of "My brethren" ye have done it to Me"

We know the holy angels are not Christ's brethren, WE are Christ's brethren. Paul cries to the Corinthians "do ye not know that ye are to judge the world?" and this is what we see, the nations being separated into sheeps and goats and judged as to whether they ministered to the needs of the saints or not.

So we must ask now who are these righteous sheeps who do gain an inheritance?

We shoulda KNOWN they were not the church because they gained their inheritance [whatever that inheritance is] by the good works they had done. But Jerome thought they were the church and that is why he translates the sacredos who accompany the Lord as holy angels.
The church has followed Jerome's translation.