Apostolic Succession ??

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dan p

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Hi to all , and Baptism , as I have said is a very big subject and will slowly bring it to the fore .

I know that many of you and I do not believe that Peter WAS the first Bishop of Rome and for many reasons .

To be a Priest , one had to be BORN a Levi .

One has to be born a Jew .

One could not take office , until 30 years of age , like Jesus who began His ministry , at 3o years .

Had to retire at 50 years , with his IRA .

No where in the Gospels , did Jesus or the disciple preach christianity .

If , Peter was not the first Bishop and no one believes in Apostolic Succession ;

Why do some believe in Baptismal Succession ..

Keeping the Law meant , Repentance , sacrifices , offerings , baptisms and the keeping of the 613 Law of Moses ..

If , Peter is not the first BISHOP of Rome , than Baptism is also out .

dan p
 

Job one

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Dear Dan P,

While I might agree that Peter was the chief apostle who held the keys of the kingdom, I find nowhere in the Bible any evidence that Peter was the first bishop of Rome.

Also, where do the scriptures teach of any principle of succession for bishops?

Where do you find bishops being the foundation of the church?

Does not Ephesians 2:20 teach otherwise? "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone:"

If the above does not make the point clear enough, then consider the following relating to apostolic succession:

Ephesians 4:11" [b]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ
[/b]:"

In the above, a specific time line is set forth establishing the clear necessity of having all of the above listed officers in Christ’s church.

Have we all come in the unity of the faith?

Have we all obtained a clear knowledge of the Son of God?

Have we all progressed to the point of being perfect men?

Have we all progressed “unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:?

If we have not met all of the above requirements, then, it appears obvious that all the above officers should also be found in Christ’s church today.

What could have the apostle Paul done or said to make this point any more clear?
 

mjrhealth

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Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

It was never meant to be that way, there is no such thing as apostolloic succession, it was something instigtaed by man and his wisdom, there is only one and should be only one head over you and that is Christ, if you choose to ait under men, then you will be responsible for the lies you recieve and the lies you are taught. Jesus said that He was and is the only way, Following men is the blind leading the blind, and all will fall into the ditch.

in His Love
 

dan p

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Dear Dan P,

While I might agree that Peter was the chief apostle who held the keys of the kingdom, I find nowhere in the Bible any evidence that Peter was the first bishop of Rome.

Also, where do the scriptures teach of any principle of succession for bishops?
said to make this point any more clear?

Hi Job , I think you have mis-understood the OP , and I agree the no where is there a protocol in the Gospel to establish Bishops and no one could become a priest , unless he was born from the tribe of Levi , dan p
 

charlesj

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Hi to all , and Baptism , as I have said is a very big subject and will slowly bring it to the fore .

I know that many of you and I do not believe that Peter WAS the first Bishop of Rome and for many reasons .

To be a Priest , one had to be BORN a Levi .

One has to be born a Jew .

One could not take office , until 30 years of age , like Jesus who began His ministry , at 3o years .

Had to retire at 50 years , with his IRA .

No where in the Gospels , did Jesus or the disciple preach christianity .

If , Peter was not the first Bishop and no one believes in Apostolic Succession ;

Why do some believe in Baptismal Succession ..

Keeping the Law meant , Repentance , sacrifices , offerings , baptisms and the keeping of the 613 Law of Moses ..

If , Peter is not the first BISHOP of Rome , than Baptism is also out .

dan p



Hello Dan:

Take a look at my "lttle writing" on "priest/Levites."
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13853-priests-and-levites/

May the Lord bless us as we honor and serve Him.

charlesj

 

St Columcille

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I know that many of you and I do not believe that Peter WAS the first Bishop of Rome and for many reasons .

dan p

First of all, Peter being the first bishop of Rome is a side topic of apostolic succession. There were many Orthodox Patriarches from the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, the Greek Orthodox Patriarch, Antiochian, etc. All of them believe in apostolic succession. And from the statements in regards to the Orthodox Churches as it touches on the subject of Peter being a bishop of Rome, none deny it. The best source in regards to the succession comes from Tertullian's writings where he argues that the gnostics do not have any discipleship connection through the Apostles. You will recall there were many works floating around by gnostics teaching that the material world was evil, that God of the O.T. was full of wrath (Marcion), and many other such heresies. If you want to discuss Peter's bishopric over Rome, I'll be more than happy to cut and paste Tertullian's writings as well as Eusibus' "Ecclesiastical History" in another forum.

I do not feel it necessary to discuss baptism in connection to apostolic succession, unless there is some specific passage you have in mind that might tie it together from the scriptures or from the Early Church Fathers (Ante-Nicene, Nicene, or Post-Nicene Fathers).

I will introduce a scriptural passage that I think touches on the distinction of specifically an apostolic succession from other bishops. The Thomas-Nelson "Orthodox Study Bible" (SAAS-NKJV) has in its footnote four positions in Church government: Bishop, Presbyter, Deacon, and Laity. What is really interesting is the passage in Acts 1.25.

25 to take the placeg in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition. 2008 (Ac 1:25). Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press.

ἀποστολή, ῆς, ἡ apostolē apostolic authority; apostolic office


Balz, H. R., & Schneider, G. (1990-). Vol. 1: Exegetical dictionary of the New Testament (142). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans.


1:12–26 Matthias chosen to restore the twelve apostles. The names of the eleven apostles left after Judas’ betrayal come in a different order than in Luke 6:14–16. The Gospel list seems to follow the order in the list as Luke received it. However, Acts adjusts the list in order of importance. It names Peter first, then John (his partner in Acts 3–5), then James, and fourth Andrew. Luke 6:14 had “Peter and Andrew, James and John.”
There were at least three important men called James. The brother of John, one of the Twelve, was with Jesus at the transfiguration and agony in the garden and was killed in Acts 12:2. He is often known as “James the Great.” The son of Alphaeus also belonged to the Twelve. Tradition calls him “James the Less.” And there is the brother or relative of Jesus who had become leader of the Jerusalem church (see Acts 12:17, Acts 15 and 21.)
Little is known about most of the Twelve aside from lists of their names. Most do not appear elsewhere in the New Testament. They are less important as individual personalities than as members of the Twelve. Jesus promised that the twelve tribes of Israel would be restored and that the Twelve would rule them in God’s kingdom (Luke 22:28–29). To have twelve rulers, Judas had to be replaced. Acts 1:15–36 shows that all twelve are in place by Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit empowered them to become the new leaders of God’s people in Jesus’ name.



Bergant, D., & Karris, R. J. (1989). The Collegeville Bible commentary : Based on the New American Bible with revised New Testament (1038). Collegeville, Minn.: Liturgical Press.

Now, you are going to find that the apostles traveled and established churches and left bishops to take charge in the stead of the apostle's authority. This is apostolic succession. When the apostles died, the epicenters of Christian influence: Antioch, Alexanderia, Rome, Jerusalem, and others filled that void through diverse manners of elections fitting their circumstance and custom.

 

Job one

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First of all, Peter being the first bishop of Rome is a side topic of apostolic succession. There were many Orthodox Patriarches from the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, the Greek Orthodox Patriarch, Antiochian, etc. All of them believe in apostolic succession. And from the statements in regards to the Orthodox Churches as it touches on the subject of Peter being a bishop of Rome, none deny it. The best source in regards to the succession comes from Tertullian's writings where he argues that the gnostics do not have any discipleship connection through the Apostles. You will recall there were many works floating around by gnostics teaching that the material world was evil, that God of the O.T. was full of wrath (Marcion), and many other such heresies. If you want to discuss Peter's bishopric over Rome, I'll be more than happy to cut and paste Tertullian's writings as well as Eusibus' "Ecclesiastical History" in another forum.

I do not feel it necessary to discuss baptism in connection to apostolic succession, unless there is some specific passage you have in mind that might tie it together from the scriptures or from the Early Church Fathers (Ante-Nicene, Nicene, or Post-Nicene Fathers).

I will introduce a scriptural passage that I think touches on the distinction of specifically an apostolic succession from other bishops. The Thomas-Nelson "Orthodox Study Bible" (SAAS-NKJV) has in its footnote four positions in Church government: Bishop, Presbyter, Deacon, and Laity. What is really interesting is the passage in Acts 1.25.

25 to take the placeg in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition. 2008 (Ac 1:25). Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press.

ἀποστολή, ῆς, ἡ apostolē apostolic authority; apostolic office


Balz, H. R., & Schneider, G. (1990-). Vol. 1: Exegetical dictionary of the New Testament (142). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans.


1:12–26 Matthias chosen to restore the twelve apostles. The names of the eleven apostles left after Judas’ betrayal come in a different order than in Luke 6:14–16. The Gospel list seems to follow the order in the list as Luke received it. However, Acts adjusts the list in order of importance. It names Peter first, then John (his partner in Acts 3–5), then James, and fourth Andrew. Luke 6:14 had “Peter and Andrew, James and John.”
There were at least three important men called James. The brother of John, one of the Twelve, was with Jesus at the transfiguration and agony in the garden and was killed in Acts 12:2. He is often known as “James the Great.” The son of Alphaeus also belonged to the Twelve. Tradition calls him “James the Less.” And there is the brother or relative of Jesus who had become leader of the Jerusalem church (see Acts 12:17, Acts 15 and 21.)
Little is known about most of the Twelve aside from lists of their names. Most do not appear elsewhere in the New Testament. They are less important as individual personalities than as members of the Twelve. Jesus promised that the twelve tribes of Israel would be restored and that the Twelve would rule them in God’s kingdom (Luke 22:28–29). To have twelve rulers, Judas had to be replaced. Acts 1:15–36 shows that all twelve are in place by Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit empowered them to become the new leaders of God’s people in Jesus’ name.



Bergant, D., & Karris, R. J. (1989). The Collegeville Bible commentary : Based on the New American Bible with revised New Testament (1038). Collegeville, Minn.: Liturgical Press.

Now, you are going to find that the apostles traveled and established churches and left bishops to take charge in the stead of the apostle's authority. This is apostolic succession. When the apostles died, the epicenters of Christian influence: Antioch, Alexanderia, Rome, Jerusalem, and others filled that void through diverse manners of elections fitting their circumstance and custom.
I can agree that another was called to replace Judas. This would indicate that there should always be a quorum of the twelve to preside over the church.

However there is no certain confirmation from the scriptures that Peter (the chief apostle) was assigned to be the first bishop in Rome. As I understand it, a Bishop is subordinate to and Apostle. Christ did not give the keys of the Kingdom to a bishop, but to an Apostle.

If the Apostles were slain in various ways or means and no successor apostle was chosen, then apostolic succession could not exist. In fact where in Catholic History is there any account of Apostles existing to lead the church?
 

RichardBurger

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Hi Job , I think you have mis-understood the OP , and I agree the no where is there a protocol in the Gospel to establish Bishops and no one could become a priest , unless he was born from the tribe of Levi , dan p

Hi Dan p. Good to see you are still teaching the truth.

God gave us the O.T. to show who He is and what He has done, and is doing, in the world. The first 4 books of the N.T. tell us that God tried to keep His promise to the Jews and to set up the kingdom on this earth He promised them. But the Jews rejected Jesus and the promised kingdom
--
--
The story of the “”barren fig tree”” tells us why Jesus (God) destroyed the Temple in 70 AD. The 12 Apostles had about 40 years to convince the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah but they couldn’t do it so God uprooted Israel and sent Paul to the Gentles. Paul was not sent to continue the gospel of the Kingdom at hand because that was put on hold along with the law and all religious rituals.
-
-
I don’t see how religious people can teach those under grace out of books that were written to and for the Jews. But they do because they do not see that God has set up another program. Under previous programs men were required to participate in religious practices for salvation. However man could not do what was required. --- THEREFORE God has made a program that does not require mankind to do what they could not do before. A program where God has done all, and I mean all, that is necessary for salvation. It is now a free gift to all that will put their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in God’s work on the cross, His new program.
-
-
But most will not believe it is a free gift. They insist that man has to do something to get it.
-
-
Keep up the good work. Yours “IN CHRIST,” the Ark that God has built for us.
--
--
Richard
 

lawrance

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Hi Dan p. Good to see you are still teaching the truth.

God gave us the O.T. to show who He is and what He has done, and is doing, in the world. The first 4 books of the N.T. tell us that God tried to keep His promise to the Jews and to set up the kingdom on this earth He promised them. But the Jews rejected Jesus and the promised kingdom
--
--
The story of the “”barren fig tree”” tells us why Jesus (God) destroyed the Temple in 70 AD. The 12 Apostles had about 40 years to convince the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah but they couldn’t do it so God uprooted Israel and sent Paul to the Gentles. Paul was not sent to continue the gospel of the Kingdom at hand because that was put on hold along with the law and all religious rituals.
-
-
I don’t see how religious people can teach those under grace out of books that were written to and for the Jews. But they do because they do not see that God has set up another program. Under previous programs men were required to participate in religious practices for salvation. However man could not do what was required. --- THEREFORE God has made a program that does not require mankind to do what they could not do before. A program where God has done all, and I mean all, that is necessary for salvation. It is now a free gift to all that will put their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in God’s work on the cross, His new program.
-
-
But most will not believe it is a free gift. They insist that man has to do something to get it.
-
-
Keep up the good work. Yours “IN CHRIST,” the Ark that God has built for us.
--
--
Richard


So you think that you need do nothing at all and i mean absolutely nothing ?

I think its about that man has nothing to offer in him self only ( worldly )

But it's only the spirit ? so the spirit in him and only the spirit working through Jesus Christ in us ( and that is the free gift ! ) so with out the spirit working through you then you have nothing at all and that is called dead ! to the spirit.

Christ gave us the tools and we have to respond. or we will be lost walking around aim less for a wolf to devour.

Faith with out the works of Christ spirit abiding in you are dead works !

If we only looked to to Christ on the cross as some sort of idolatry to be parmed off at. with no direction at all ( is that were you are coming from) and then we could dismiss the whole OT. then could we not ?

Do you think that God set up another program so did he get it wrong the first time did he bro ? is he a different God now ?
 

RichardBurger

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So you think that you need do nothing at all and i mean absolutely nothing ?

I think its about that man has nothing to offer in him self only ( worldly )

But it's only the spirit ? so the spirit in him and only the spirit working through Jesus Christ in us ( and that is the free gift ! ) so with out the spirit working through you then you have nothing at all and that is called dead ! to the spirit.

Christ gave us the tools and we have to respond. or we will be lost walking around aim less for a wolf to devour.

Faith with out the works of Christ spirit abiding in you are dead works !

If we only looked to to Christ on the cross as some sort of idolatry to be parmed off at. with no direction at all ( is that were you are coming from) and then we could dismiss the whole OT. then could we not ?

Do you think that God set up another program so did he get it wrong the first time did he bro ? is he a different God now ?

I get the impression that you feel you have to do something to be saved. Just what is it that you think is equal to what Jesus did on the cross? Do you really believe that you have to pay God for His salvation by something you do?

It is my observation that most say that God is working THROUGH them and then go out and decide what they (the person) wants to do. That is NOT letting God work through the person. It is the person doing things that they think will make God owe them salvation. I observe that many religious people will give to a church, give to a charity and then stop in the doorway of the church to carry on a conversation while there are many trying to get out. I suppose charity only goes so far.

I also see you using the phrase "dead works." That is straight from the book of James. I fine many that say they believe every word in the Bible but when it comes to James 1:1 they seem to have blind eyes.
 

Selene

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I can agree that another was called to replace Judas. This would indicate that there should always be a quorum of the twelve to preside over the church.

However there is no certain confirmation from the scriptures that Peter (the chief apostle) was assigned to be the first bishop in Rome. As I understand it, a Bishop is subordinate to and Apostle. Christ did not give the keys of the Kingdom to a bishop, but to an Apostle.

If the Apostles were slain in various ways or means and no successor apostle was chosen, then apostolic succession could not exist. In fact where in Catholic History is there any account of Apostles existing to lead the church?

Historical records show that St. Peter was the first bishop of Rome. St. Linus was the first successor of the Apostle Peter.


St. Cyprian
In the middle of the third century St. Cyprian expressly terms the Roman See the Chair of St. Peter, saying that Cornelius has succeeded to "the place of Fabian which is the place of Peter" (Epistle 51:8; cf. 75:3).




Tertullian
In the first quarter of the century (about 220) Tertullian (On Modesty 21) mentions Callistus's claim that Peter's power to forgive sins had descended in a special manner to him. Had the Roman Church been merely founded by Peter and not reckoned him as its first bishop, there could have been no ground for such a contention. Tertullian, like Firmilian, had every motive to deny the claim. Moreover, he had himself resided at Rome, and would have been well aware if the idea of a Roman episcopate of Peter had been, as is contended by its opponents, a novelty dating from the first years of the third century, supplanting the older tradition according to which Peter and Paul were co-founders, and Linus first bishop.




Hippolytus
About the same period, Hippolytus (for Lightfoot is surely right in holding him to be the author of the first part of the "Liberian Catalogue" — "Clement of Rome", 1:259) reckons Peter in the list of Roman bishops.




"Adversus Marcionem"
We have moreover a poem, "Adversus Marcionem", written apparently at the same period, in which Peter is said to have passed on to Linus "the chair on which he himself had sat" (P.L., II 1077).

 

RichardBurger

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So you think that you need do nothing at all and i mean absolutely nothing ?

I think its about that man has nothing to offer in him self only ( worldly )

But it's only the spirit ? so the spirit in him and only the spirit working through Jesus Christ in us ( and that is the free gift ! ) so with out the spirit working through you then you have nothing at all and that is called dead ! to the spirit.

Christ gave us the tools and we have to respond. or we will be lost walking around aim less for a wolf to devour.

Faith with out the works of Christ spirit abiding in you are dead works !

If we only looked to to Christ on the cross as some sort of idolatry to be parmed off at. with no direction at all ( is that were you are coming from) and then we could dismiss the whole OT. then could we not ?

Do you think that God set up another program so did he get it wrong the first time did he bro ? is he a different God now ?

I have an additional answer for our last sentence. The formewr things were discontinued because of the weakness of men, not God

Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, 'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek' "),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

Heb 8:6-7 (NKJ)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant (Law) had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

If there was never any other gospel (covenant) than the gospel of the grace of God, as some claim, why was it necessary to replace an old covenant (gospel)? If one was "unprofitable" then it must have failed to be profitable. In order to replace the old, the old had to exist in order to be replaced.

Jesus and the 12 (or 11) taught the gospel of the Abrahamic Covenant. A covenant to which the law was added (Gal 3:16-19). The law failed because of " its weakness and unprofitable-ness" It was "unprofitable" because of the weakness of men. Men could not live up to the standards of God's perfect laws. But Jesus did and He did it for us.
 

lawrance

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I have an additional answer for our last sentence. The formewr things were discontinued because of the weakness of men, not God

Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, 'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek' "),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

Heb 8:6-7 (NKJ)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant (Law) had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

If there was never any other gospel (covenant) than the gospel of the grace of God, as some claim, why was it necessary to replace an old covenant (gospel)? If one was "unprofitable" then it must have failed to be profitable. In order to replace the old, the old had to exist in order to be replaced.

Jesus and the 12 (or 11) taught the gospel of the Abrahamic Covenant. A covenant to which the law was added (Gal 3:16-19). The law failed because of " its weakness and unprofitable-ness" It was "unprofitable" because of the weakness of men. Men could not live up to the standards of God's perfect laws. But Jesus did and He did it for us.


The Law did not fail and it is not week at all. Christ did not do away with the Law at all but Christ came and fulfilled the Law making the Old obsolete by adding to it.
We are not under the law now but it still exists but under grace.
The old testament is still there we have not thrown it away but Christ has came and it is fulfilled.
 

lawrance

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I get the impression that you feel you have to do something to be saved. Just what is it that you think is equal to what Jesus did on the cross? Do you really believe that you have to pay God for His salvation by something you do?

It is my observation that most say that God is working THROUGH them and then go out and decide what they (the person) wants to do. That is NOT letting God work through the person. It is the person doing things that they think will make God owe them salvation. I observe that many religious people will give to a church, give to a charity and then stop in the doorway of the church to carry on a conversation while there are many trying to get out. I suppose charity only goes so far.

I also see you using the phrase "dead works." That is straight from the book of James. I fine many that say they believe every word in the Bible but when it comes to James 1:1 they seem to have blind eyes.


I don't pay anyone any thing myself. but Christ lives in a Christian and is not separated, as the two become as one.

True charity is a virtue that God infuses into us to enable us to love God.
Charity is a much wider scope than simple doing of good works and general amiability and it is not humanitarianism as people mistake it to be.
So with out charity the sole is dead.
 

RichardBurger

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I don't pay anyone any thing myself. but Christ lives in a Christian and is not separated, as the two become as one.

True charity is a virtue that God infuses into us to enable us to love God.
Charity is a much wider scope than simple doing of good works and general amiability and it is not humanitarianism as people mistake it to be.
So with out charity the sole is dead.

You are talking about the love by man which is always subjective. But God's love is never subjective.

There is a difference between the flesh and the spirit. A child of God lives in a sinful body of flesh. There are two, not one. The spirit is born of God. The flesh is born of a human women and can never be made perfect. That is why Paul said that we have no confidence in the flesh.
 

lawrance

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You are talking about the love by man which is always subjective. But God's love is never subjective.

There is a difference between the flesh and the spirit. A child of God lives in a sinful body of flesh. There are two, not one. The spirit is born of God. The flesh is born of a human women and can never be made perfect. That is why Paul said that we have no confidence in the flesh.


I did not say the two are one but 'AS ONE' ?

I am not saying anyone is perfect.

You may believe that people are totally corrupt doctrine.

The Devil believes in Jesus to you know and he knows who he is. fact !
But did not the Devil lack virtue and that was the fall of him and his angles ? as they were created good, were they not ?

We were created good but only for the stain of original sin that we are lead into temptation.

Jesus broke the massive power of the Devil had hear, but he has not grind him to a powder so look out you don't trip.

I am worried some people use Christ as some sort of idol.
I know of a old Buddy who was always saying he is saved, but used it as an excuse to go around selling drugs and running around like a complete fool ect and it almost killed him but now he is on the mental pension.
Another dude i know is what he calls a born again fundamentalist christian and he thinks he can kill who ever 'even for no reason' and do what ever and he is convinced he is a saint and is going to Heaven. he also believes he has saved people him self, by having them repeat after him a few words and that is all it is to it. he says they are saved from that moment on. but will say that Catholics are not ? go figure.
 

RichardBurger

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I did not say the two are one but 'AS ONE' ?

I am not saying anyone is perfect.

You may believe that people are totally corrupt doctrine.

The Devil believes in Jesus to you know and he knows who he is. fact !
But did not the Devil lack virtue and that was the fall of him and his angles ? as they were created good, were they not ?

We were created good but only for the stain of original sin that we are lead into temptation.

Jesus broke the massive power of the Devil had hear, but he has not grind him to a powder so look out you don't trip.

I am worried some people use Christ as some sort of idol.
I know of a old Buddy who was always saying he is saved, but used it as an excuse to go around selling drugs and running around like a complete fool ect and it almost killed him but now he is on the mental pension.
Another dude i know is what he calls a born again fundamentalist christian and he thinks he can kill who ever 'even for no reason' and do what ever and he is convinced he is a saint and is going to Heaven. he also believes he has saved people him self, by having them repeat after him a few words and that is all it is to it. he says they are saved from that moment on. but will say that Catholics are not ? go figure.

Be careful that you don't spend your time looking at the sins of others and not your own. When I look into the mirrow I see myself and I am just as much a sinner in the flesh beford God as anyone else. The only difference is I KNOW my sins have been washed away by the Blood Jesus shed on the cross. Did you know that IMHO most people that say they are Christain are always worried about their sins of the flesh? Makes you wonder if they REALLY believe in the power of the blood.
 

lawrance

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Mar 30, 2011
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Be careful that you don't spend your time looking at the sins of others and not your own. When I look into the mirrow I see myself and I am just as much a sinner in the flesh beford God as anyone else. The only difference is I KNOW my sins have been washed away by the Blood Jesus shed on the cross. Did you know that IMHO most people that say they are Christain are always worried about their sins of the flesh? Makes you wonder if they REALLY believe in the power of the blood.


So you don't sin anymore ?
Do you think your brother is you keeper.? 'am i my brothers keeper.'
Why did Peter start to sink when he came to Jesus walking on the water ?
 

St Columcille

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I can agree that another was called to replace Judas. This would indicate that there should always be a quorum of the twelve to preside over the church.

However there is no certain confirmation from the scriptures that Peter (the chief apostle) was assigned to be the first bishop in Rome. As I understand it, a Bishop is subordinate to and Apostle. Christ did not give the keys of the Kingdom to a bishop, but to an Apostle.

If the Apostles were slain in various ways or means and no successor apostle was chosen, then apostolic succession could not exist. In fact where in Catholic History is there any account of Apostles existing to lead the church?


Sorry, I had not gotten back to you.


If you think about it, Judas was already dead when someone was selected to take his place. It does not need a direct decendant, it can be chosen by a secret ballot just as lots were used in deciding between Matthias and the other. And the point I was making is that the Apostles' position is the same function as being a bishop, as it has been translated as "bishropic." The second aspect regarding Scripture confirming Peter, well, Peter lived beyond it and there is no other story regarding him being elsewhere but in Rome at the end of his life. In regards to subordinate, I am inclinded to think both a bishop and the apostle in his role of bishopric is the same. The only distinction being that the apostles themselves experienced Jesus while he was alive, but the bishops exact the same authority given to them by the apostles who established them. All are subordinate to Christ. In regards to the "keys to the Kingdom," this was said directy to Peter. But that topic is a different discussion altogether, because that is where the "perogative of honor" of the First Ecumenical Council of Constantinople is interpreted apart from apostolic succession. One must first believe there is apostolic succession before we come to the primacy of Peter, not the other way round.
 

lawrance

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When Jesus first met Simon, Jesus called him Peter.
But it was not until Peter confirmed it to Jesus, that he knew who Jesus was ? then Jesus said that it was the Father that revealed that to Peter ? there upon Jesus said the following to him.