Apparitions of the Virgin Mary

[Illuminator]

I don't pray to saints in heaven according to Calvin's rigid, narrow definition of "pray to". One does not need to be a Calvinist to dogmatize his near sightedness.

 

[Illuminator]

Anti-Catholic Calvinist James White wrote:
Paul says that each man’s work “will become evident, for the day will show it.” The nature of the Christian minister’s work will be plain and clear: the lack of clarity that exists during this lifetime will no longer cloud our vision at the judgment. What a tremendously sobering thought for those who labor in building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ! God, who searches the hearts, will reveal our true motivations on that day!
The revelation of whether one’s ministerial works are precious and lasting, or surface-level and temporary, will be accomplished “by fire.” Obviously, fire differentiates, at the most basic level, between gold and wood, silver and straw, precious stones and stubble. The precious elements withstand the fire’s presence, whereas the others are consumed in their entirety. Given that it has already been established that gold and silver, etc., are figures for the quality of men’s works, so it follows inexorably that “fire” refers to a testing that makes its verdict as clear as the destruction of wood, hay, and stubble by the raging flames of a fire. The works that were not done to God’s glory are destroyed, while those works having the proper character pass through unharmed.
Purgatory: Refutation of James White (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

This is a good description of purgatory indeed. Sin isn’t “done to God’s glory” so to the extent that are works were sinful, they (and we) will be judged. It’s striking that Protestants like White cannot see that this is exactly what the doctrine of purgatory entails.

 

[Taken]

TRANSLATION:
"I can't refute post #428

Luke 16:24 (RSV) And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’

In your man made system, people in Hell fire can call out to Abraham.

Luke 16:27-28 (quoted directly and/or in links SEVERAL TIMES and you say I am too lazy to quote)And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father [KJV: “I pray thee therefore, father”], to send him to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’

In your man made system, people in Hell fire have compassion on those on earth.

It's impossible. In both cases, what you assert is as absurd as it is heretical. The rich man cannot possibly be in hell, and we know he is not in heaven. So where is the rich man? It's a big problem

No problem at all to refute your claim.

The rich man can not possibly in hell

Refuted:
The rich man's BODY was dead and Buried.
The rich man's Living soul Saw and Talked to Father Abraham's Living soul...in Hell.

Luke 16:
[22] ...the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he (rich man)... seeth Abraham
[24] And said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me...
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them (the Living) hear them.
[30] And he (the rich man) said, Nay, father Abraham:
[31] And he (Father Abraham) said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Yet it’s indisputable that Jesus indeed plainly teaches the very thing that you claim is Satanic!!! In His story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), we find our compelling prooftext THAT YOUR ARROGANT MAN MADE SYSTEM CALLS SATANIC!!!

Uh No!

You are Trying Desperately to Compare TWO completely different things...while making False Accusations!

In your man made system, people in Hell fire can call out to Abraham.

In hell, Saved Living souls and Unsaved living souls, (of Dead Bodies) could and did see one another and talk to one another.
It is not man-made...it's Scripture!

The rich man can not possibly in hell

The "men" (Abraham & rich man) are (Bodily Dead and Buried).
Their Living souls ARE (at that time) in Hell, seeing one another and having a conversation.
According to Scripture!

In your man made system, people in Hell fire have compassion on those on earth.

^ Out of Context. ^
In Hell, An Unsaved living Soul (rich man), was requesting a Saved Soul (Abraham), to have compassion on the rich man's Bodily Living Brothers on Earth!
Abraham's Living soul, REFUSED.

Your Accusations are Bunk.
Your Claims scenario:
* Is for A Bodily Living man, to pray TO, saints in Heaven.
Living saints in Heaven...are Saved living souls with Born Again spirits....and Dead buried Body's !
(That has Nothing to do with living souls in hell)...so your trying to compare is a failure.

Protestant theology also generally teaches that we "can’t" talk to anyone who is dead,

Bunk!
Men can "Talk to", whomever they want.
Scripture Teaches TO NOT try to TALK TO the Dead.
( you should learn the difference between...
Can't and Shouldn't !)
Then you Should Learn WHY one Shouldn't talk to the Dead!!

let alone make intercessory requests to them.

To Them!!!???

Yet King Saul talked to the dead prophet Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-3), the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation 11:3-13 came back to life again (and talked to folks); so did those who rose after Jesus’ Resurrection (Matthew 27:50-53), etc.

So what king Saul talked TO the Dead?
And what? king Saul got an "atta boy"? LOL uh no!
And so what? Moses and Elijah was seen by bodily alive men....Did those Bodily alive men TALK to Moses or Elijah? No... ! THE Bodily Alive men KNEW not to talk to souls or spirits of the men who were Bodily Dead!!!
*** (That is a Lesson you should learn!!!)

One reply is to maintain that “this is only a parable” – therefore we are told that it doesn’t “prove” anything.

What IDIOT Told YOU that?

But many Bible commentators agree that it’s not a parable.

And what is you point?
You Believe Some Commentators OVER Above Scripture?
Big mistake on your part!

Parables don’t use proper names

What IDIOT told you that?

We conclude, then, that Jesus sanctioned “prayer to” dead men for requests. That is the traditional notion of “communion of saints.”

Dead men...are Dead body's.
Praying "TO dead men" FOR requests will net you a response as meaningful as praying TO a statue...(worthless Tradition! OF men)

Ecc 9:5
[5] ... the dead know not any thing...

since even parables cannot contain things that are theologically false,

Apparently...unless YOU say so...
Recall....and you have just contradicted yourself!

The rich man can not possibly in hell

First of all...having a meaningful discussion with you is a waste of Time...

You speak in generalities...(people)
You make flat out Denials that contradict Scripture (rich man in hell)
You try to make comparisons of apples and oranges.
You make claims for others that are false.
You obviously have not the wherewithall to distinguish between A Body, Soul, Spirit of man.

If you Could...
Skip pass all the Scriptures that do not verify what you are claiming, the commentaries, the making claims for others (in your words), irrelevant Deflective blah, blah blah.....and actually identify WHAT You were Taught to do and Do.

Identify "Exactly" what (body, soul, spirit) Of You;
prays TO "Exactly" what (Body, Soul, Spirit) Of a saint, IN Heaven.

( oh and if you wouldn't mind, please answer, Identifying the IDIOTS, who taught you:
* Jesus' Parables are "Not proof positive" of anything.
* Parables don't use Proper Names.

Taken

 

[Taken]

Hi taken,

Scripture teaches us a lot of things. Like the ministry of reconciliation.

Did you ever answer me on my question about the ministry of reconciliation? If so, I can't find your answer....

If you have a question, ask.

 

[Marymog]

That we are justified in Christ, and in His single act of obedience.

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

I believe this passage can also be understood disobedience and obedience being ongoing, that is, the disobedience life of Adam, and the obedient life of Christ, but I think it's more Adam's first sin, and Jesus' death in obedience to the Father.

All sin is justified in this act, through our death and rebirth in Christ. Jesus died once for all, so all sin is removed in that one act.

Much love!

Hi marks,

Soooooo as soon as I sin it is automatically removed by justification???? Which means no one really has the stain of sin on their soul EVER which means everyone goes to heaven???

 

[Marymog]

If you have a question, ask.

I did.....you dodged it like you usually do. Thank you for your time.

 

[Marymog]

[QUOTEYou are suggesting that our spirits are confined to one or the other; earth OR heaven only. Can you give ONE Biblical verse to back up that theory?

I said no such thing.

Do you pray to saints in Heaven?[/QUOTE]
Got it. You said no such thing. That means we are in agreement that souls are NOT confined to either heaven or earth. You theory, that the dead sinless souls in heaven can’t hear our prayers, places restrictions on souls in heaven. But the souls that are inside a human body are not restricted and can hear our prayers.

Souls are alive in heaven and on earth. My God is a god of the living.

 

[Marymog]

Read The Bible, for goodness sake. Stop letting the priest do it for you

Soooo when a priest reads the bible he misinterprets it but when you read it you don’t???

Curious Mary

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Soooo when a priest reads the bible he misinterprets it but when you read it you don’t???

Curious Mary

When I was rc, I never even picked a Bible up! And I was so zealous for church and sacraments. Not saying every rc is like I was, but it does appear common in my family.
Jesus didn’t say ‘see to it that no one deceives you’ for nothing. We should always read His Word for ourselves too. Better still, take our own Bible, and read along with the priest etc. I can easily misquote The Bible, even though I’ve been reading it for 20 + years! (Still not read all of it!)
We have to be wary of Bible commentaries too, even though they make things easier.
It’s so easy to be distracted.

 

[Taken]

I did.....you dodged it like you usually do. Thank you for your time.

LOL...be a big girl, instead of a childish brat.

I have no intention to thumb through all posts to see if you asked something...since the question is apparently some big secret....for all I know, I could have answered and you didn't like the answer....as you have done before....and then claimed it was dodged.

 

[Taken]

You theory, that the dead sinless souls

Stop right there-

Why are "YOU making up" some cockamamy BS and saying that is MY Theory?

Prove your claim or Fix your Lie.

 

[Taken]

I don't pray to saints in heaven according to Calvin's rigid, narrow definition of "pray to". One does not need to be a Calvinist to dogmatize his near sightedness.

Do you pray TO Saints in Heaven...if so, according to What?

 

[Marymog]

When I was rc, I never even picked a Bible up! And I was so zealous for church and sacraments. Not saying every rc is like I was, but it does appear common in my family.
Jesus didn’t say ‘see to it that no one deceives you’ for nothing. We should always read His Word for ourselves too. Better still, take our own Bible, and read along with the priest etc. I can easily misquote The Bible, even though I’ve been reading it for 20 + years! (Still not read all of it!)
We have to be wary of Bible commentaries too, even though they make things easier.
It’s so easy to be distracted.

Hi,

I get the gist of what you are saying about not picking up a bible but you do realize that you did read from the bible every time you went to Mass? Not only the three readings but all the other homilies etc. throughout the mass is taken from the bible!! Historically, since the 1st century, church gatherings/services have been sacramental. The big change away from that came 1,500+ years after the start of Christianity.

Putting the ‘see to it that no one deceives you’ quote in context has nothing to do with Christians reading "His Word for ourselves too". Jesus was (in context) talking about false saviors claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and wars/rumors of wars in that passage you mentioned. Scripture does say that men will twist Scripture to their own destruction because it is difficult to understand. You are always welcome to come back to The Church.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

LOL...be a big girl, instead of a childish brat.

I have no intention to thumb through all posts to see if you asked something...since the question is apparently some big secret....for all I know, I could have answered and you didn't like the answer....as you have done before....and then claimed it was dodged.

Not sure why you are being condescending. In your nature I suspect.

I know you won't look through all my posts to see if I asked something. It clearly is not a "big secret" since it is on a public forum.

 

[Marymog]

Stop right there-

Why are "YOU making up" some cockamamy BS and saying that is MY Theory?

Prove your claim or Fix your Lie.

If what you said is not a theory then you must have/know that everything you write is the Truth?

 

[Taken]

Anti-Catholic Calvinist James White wrote:
Paul says that each man’s work “will become evident, for the day will show it.” The nature of the Christian minister’s work will be plain and clear: the lack of clarity that exists during this lifetime will no longer cloud our vision at the judgment. What a tremendously sobering thought for those who labor in building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ! God, who searches the hearts, will reveal our true motivations on that day!
The revelation of whether one’s ministerial works are precious and lasting, or surface-level and temporary, will be accomplished “by fire.” Obviously, fire differentiates, at the most basic level, between gold and wood, silver and straw, precious stones and stubble. The precious elements withstand the fire’s presence, whereas the others are consumed in their entirety. Given that it has already been established that gold and silver, etc., are figures for the quality of men’s works, so it follows inexorably that “fire” refers to a testing that makes its verdict as clear as the destruction of wood, hay, and stubble by the raging flames of a fire. The works that were not done to God’s glory are destroyed, while those works having the proper character pass through unharmed.

Dont see anything not Scriptural, in this excerpt quote of James White, whoever he is.

 

[Taken]

Not sure why you are being condescending. In your nature I suspect.

It is somewhat my nature to dole out Tit-for-Tat. Funny you did not get that, guess that is your nature.

I know you won't look through all my posts to see if I asked something.

Good. Obviously wasn't important.

 

[Taken]

If what you said is not a theory then you must have/know that everything you write is the Truth?

What is wrong with you?

Are you really that ignorant that you don't know making up crap is lying?

The Theory you are yapping about is nothing I said!

 

[Marymog]

What is wrong with you?

Are you really that ignorant that you don't know making up crap is lying?

The Theory you are yapping about is nothing I said!

Wow.....now I'm ignorant. Such a large vocabulary you have.

Is what you said a theory or Truth?

 

[Marymog]

It is somewhat my nature to dole out Tit-for-Tat. Funny you did not get that, guess that is your nature.

Hmmmm......so I was condescending?

How about a re-set?

Please do tell me your thoughts on the ministry of reconciliation?