Are babies born without sin

[Raeneske]

I think you will find this interesting after you think about it every infant inherits sin from Adam ... FROM ADAM FATHERS PASS IT ON TO DAUGHTERS AND SON'S.. Fathers are the sin bearers that pass sin along.. women get inherited sin from their dads not their mothers since original /inherited sin is only passed along by Fathers-----Jesus was conceived by the holy Ghost His Father was God and that is why he never inherited original sin..Mom's receive it from their fathers but it is not passed along through them.. That's why Jesus could be born of Mary and yet be guiltless of original sin....

I know your not Lutheran yet I thought you might find this interesting any way.

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From the book of Romans
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

No one inherits sin from Adam. Everyone bears their own iniquity.

And for Jesus to be born with a "different" flesh than us doesn't make Him the perfect Saviour. He wouldn't fully know what it meant for us to struggle against sin if He was not made like His brethren in all things.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

By the way if this doctrine is true, why not just apply the miracle of being born without original sin to Jesus, and not Mary? What earthly father would Jesus have inherited sin from...? Unless of course, you do not believe that, and I am assuming you believe that about Mary, when you do not. Apologies if you do not.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Are babies born without sin

No !!!! .... they are sinners before they are even born !!!!

Babies are bad , bad , bad , right from the start.

Babies start kicking and punching their mom while still inside the uterus

That is why the doctors spank them as soon as they are born

Can't fool a doctor .... those guys know everything..

 

[KingJ]

No !!!! .... they are sinners before they are even born !!!!

Babies are bad , bad , bad , right from the start.

Babies start kicking and punching their mom while still inside the uterus

That is why the doctors spank them as soon as they are born

Can't fool a doctor .... those guys know everything..

I agree! Babies are also very immoral. They run around in the nude and have no regard for where they urinate and dump their feces.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I agree! Babies are also very immoral. They run around in the nude and have no regard for where they urinate and dump their feces.

Thats right .... and then daddies have to go to work and buy food and houses and clothes and cribs and car seats ..... all that stuff gets in the way of what men really want to do ....

.... which is laze around making more babies !!!!!

If babies were perfect (sin free) .... they would simply take care of themselves and leave us adults alone !!!!!!!!!!

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Thats right .... and then daddies have to go to work and buy food and houses and clothes and cribs and car seats ..... all that stuff gets in the way of what men really want to do ....

.... which is laze around making more babies !!!!!

If babies were perfect (sin free) .... they would simply take care of themselves and leave us adults alone !!!!!!!!!!

At last someone who is bold enough to speak up for the silent majority, instead of those wretched little whining babies! :lol:

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Than God would be un just God if any baby died because the wages of sin is death..

Yet we know God is not unjust and the cemetery's have the littlest of baby's in them.


the only sinless baby ever born was Jesus!!!

He alone IS to be praised over all HE THE only SINLESS lamb and he needed to die for babies to...


You need to stop relying on your feelings and your self start relying on what God says....

You have a real sweet and tender heart.. and sweet and tender hearts like yours are desirable to have ..yet sweet and tender hearts don't save........ Jesus does..


Psalm 51:5
New International Version (NIV)



5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.


=====================================================================================================

“Feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving;
My warrant is the Word of God--
Naught else is worth believing.

Though all my heart should feel condemned
For want of some sweet token,
There is One greater than my heart
Whose Word cannot be broken.

I'll trust in God's unchanging Word
Till soul and body sever,
For, though all things shall pass away,
HIS WORD SHALL STAND FOREVER!”
― Martin Luther

People/babies die as a consequence of Adam's sin, not because they inherit Adam's sin. Much like a drunk driver hits another vehicle killing the occupants of that vehicle. Those that died did not inherit the drunk drivers sin but died as a consequence of his sin.

The NIV is a very bad, erroneous translation of Psa 51:5

Sin is transgression of the law, so what transgression did David commit when he was conceived that made him a sinner?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

.

Sin came to all humans through Adam & Eve

Babies are humans.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sin has affected all humans but all humans are not sinners as Jesus Christ and newly conceived/infants. There is no sin where there is no transgression.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Are babies born without sin

Flesh, in and of itself, is not sinful, sinfulness is a moral condition, not physical.

Physically babies are born as mortal human beings, meaning their bodies are subject to the process of corruption that all flesh is subject to, ergo, from the moment of conception they are on an inevitable path to death.

But babies are also born in a spiritual condition of already being spiritually dead, so sin is inevitable. Jesus was born in a spiritual condition of being spiritually alive, so for him sin was not inevitable.

The example of the Old Covenant is that children were not responsible to God until age 12. Under the New Covenant, as with everything else under the New, that is a personal call that only God knows, it might be at any age that an individual child reaches the level of maturity that God would begin to hold them accountable for their relationship with Him.

Only a miracle of God can change the inevitable course of life, spiritually first, and afterward physically. We who are born again already enjoy eternal life in the spirit, eternal life in the flesh awaits the final judgment and the new heavens and earth.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Rom 7:8,9 "... For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

God's law defines what sin is so without law there would be no sin, it's dead. Yet Paul said he was once alive WITHOUT THE LAW, meaning there was a time in Paul's life where sin was dead to him, it had no power over him. This was when Paul was an infant/child and not accountable to God's law. Yet as Paul matured and learned right from wrong (Isa 7:15,16) then Paul became accountable to God's law (commandment came) sin then became alive in him and he died spiritually. Paul was therefore not born a sinner for sin sprang up in him later in his life.

 

[Webers_Home]

what transgression did David commit when he was conceived that made him a sinner?

It isn't necessary to commit a sin in order to become a sinner.

For example: according to 1John 3:15, it isn't necessary to actually kill
somebody in order to be profiled a murderer. All you have to do is be angry
enough to do it; which is proof enough that were you at liberty to kill; you
would.

Take for another example the Lord's teachings on adultery in Matt 5:28. It
isn't necessary to actually sleep with a man's wife in order to be profiled an
adulterer. It's only necessary to want her; which again; is proof enough that
were you at liberty to sleep with a man's wife; you would.

Take for yet another example Ps 58:3 where infants are profiled wicked liars
from the moment of birth even though they're too young to speak a single
word, but were they able to speak; infants would be dishonest.

So you see; it's not what you do; it's your propensities that profile you a
sinner.

God's law defines what sin is so without law there would be no sin

It isn't necessary to break one of God's laws to be profiled a sinner. Take for
example the people of Sodom and Gomorrah whom, several hundred years
prior to the introduction of Moses' covenanted law, the Bible says were very
wicked sinners against the Lord. (Gen 13:13)

Buen Camino
/

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It isn't necessary to commit a sin in order to become a sinner.

For example: according to 1John 3:15, it isn't necessary to actually kill
somebody in order to be profiled a murderer. All you have to do is be angry
enough to do it; which is proof enough that were you at liberty to kill; you
would.

Take for another example the Lord's teachings on adultery in Matt 5:28. It
isn't necessary to actually sleep with a man's wife in order to be profiled an
adulterer. It's only necessary to want her; which again; is proof enough that
were you at liberty to sleep with a man's wife; you would.

Take for yet another example Ps 58:3 where infants are profiled wicked liars
from the moment of birth even though they're too young to speak a single
word, but were they able to speak; infants would be dishonest.

So you see; it's not what you do; it's your propensities that profile you a
sinner.



It isn't necessary to break one of God's laws to be profiled a sinner. Take for
example the people of Sodom and Gomorrah whom, several hundred years
prior to the introduction of Moses' covenanted law, the Bible says were very
wicked sinners against the Lord. (Gen 13:13)

Buen Camino
/

I disagree, it is necessary to commit sin to be a sinner, 1 Jn 3:4 Just as it is necessary to do righteousness to be righteous, 1 Jn 3:7.

Rom 9:11, before anyone is born they have done no good or evil, so before one is born he is neither a sinner or righteous, he is in an innocent, neutral state. As Paul said in Rom 7:8,9 Paul said once in his life sin was dead to him, it had no power over him ( an innocent, neutral state) and that would have been when he was an infant/child and not accountable to God's law. Not being accountable to law then there was no sin Paul could commit since law defines sin. Yet when Paul matured and learned right from worng, THEN sin came alive in him. So sin was not alive in him before he was born or after he was born as an infant/child.

Calling one a sinner before he has sinned is like calling a board stained before you have put any stain upon it.

You posted "1John 3:15, it isn't necessary to actually kill
somebody in order to be profiled a murderer. All you have to do is be angry
enough to do it; which is proof enough that were you at liberty to kill; you
would."


Yet a newly conceived infant has neither done good OR EVIL, Rom 9:11. So since a newly conceived person has neither physically murdered anyone or be angry at anyone in his heart without cause, then how can he be called a sinner/murderer?

Not only has a newly conceived person not committed murder either actually or in his heart, he has not committed adultery either physically or in his heart, he has not lied, he has not stolen, he has not taken God's name in vain, he has not worshipped idols, he has not committed any fornication, no envyings, no strife or wrath, has not committed any sin listed in Gal 5:19,20,21 or 1 Cor 6:9,10 or any sin listed anywhere in the bible.


Gen 13:13 those of Sodom were sinners for they did transgress God's law. They were not called "wicked and sinners" for no particular reason. God had laws prior to the law of Moses regarding marriage and sex between men and women and not men and men, Gen 2:22-25 . God had laws all the way back to the garden of Eden about not eating of a particular tree.

 

[KingJ]

I disagree, it is necessary to commit sin to be a sinner, 1 Jn 3:4 Just as it is necessary to do righteousness to be righteous, 1 Jn 3:7.

Rom 9:11, before anyone is born they have done no good or evil, so before one is born he is neither a sinner or righteous, he is in an innocent, neutral state. As Paul said in Rom 7:8,9 Paul said once in his life sin was dead to him, it had no power over him ( an innocent, neutral state) and that would have been when he was an infant/child and not accountable to God's law. Not being accountable to law then there was no sin Paul could commit since law defines sin. Yet when Paul matured and learned right from worng, THEN sin came alive in him. So sin was not alive in him before he was born or after he was born as an infant/child.

Calling one a sinner before he has sinned is like calling a board stained before you have put any stain upon it.

You posted "1John 3:15, it isn't necessary to actually kill
somebody in order to be profiled a murderer. All you have to do is be angry
enough to do it; which is proof enough that were you at liberty to kill; you
would."


Yet a newly conceived infant has neither done good OR EVIL, Rom 9:11. So since a newly conceived person has neither physically murdered anyone or be angry at anyone in his heart without cause, then how can he be called a sinner/murderer?

Not only has a newly conceived person not committed murder either actually or in his heart, he has not committed adultery either physically or in his heart, he has not lied, he has not stolen, he has not taken God's name in vain, he has not worshipped idols, he has not committed any fornication, no envyings, no strife or wrath, has not committed any sin listed in Gal 5:19,20,21 or 1 Cor 6:9,10 or any sin listed anywhere in the bible.


Gen 13:13 those of Sodom were sinners for they did transgress God's law. They were not called "wicked and sinners" for no particular reason. God had laws prior to the law of Moses regarding marriage and sex between men and women and not men and men, Gen 2:22-25 . God had laws all the way back to the garden of Eden about not eating of a particular tree.

I agree with you, just one issue. Before the law of Moses mankind knew sin clearly. Cain knew murder was wrong. I like your reference to Genesis for homosexuality. But that's not needed. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit ''they became like God'' in the sense that they now knew sin. They now knew what venial and mortal sin was. Likewise when we first sin (which is pretty much inevitable in this evil world) our eyes are opened to what it is.

God's law to Moses clarifies / removes all doubt on matters we should already ''instinctively'' know. Hence God approached Adam and Eve asking ''where they are'', God approached Cain, asking ''where is Abel''. He gave them and He gives all an opportunity to repent because we all know about sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree with you, just one issue. Before the law of Moses mankind knew sin clearly. Cain knew murder was wrong. I like your reference to Genesis for homosexuality. But that's not needed. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit ''they became like God'' in the sense that they now knew sin. They now knew what venial and mortal sin was. Likewise when we first sin (which is pretty much inevitable in this evil world) our eyes are opened to what it is.

God's law to Moses clarifies / removes all doubt on matters we should already ''instinctively'' know. Hence God approached Adam and Eve asking ''where they are'', God approached Cain, asking ''where is Abel''. He gave them and He gives all an opportunity to repent because we all know about sin.

Gen 6:5,6 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

2 Pet 2:5 "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly"



The world had become wicked and evil and Noah was a preacher of righteousness. There had to be some law to determine what was wicked and evil and what was righteous and the difference between wickedness and righteousness. Unfortunately the bible gives very little information about what many call the Patriarchal law that existed before the law of Moses.

A few laws are found in Gen 9:1-7. In Rom 1:18-32 those Gentiles who lived prior to the law of Moses were held accountable for the things they did. And in Rom 2:14 which is in line with what you said about Adam's and Eve's eyes being opened, these Gentiles knew by nature (conscience) the difference between right and wrong even though they had no written law from God. With John saying sin is transgression of the law and Rom 4:15 " for where no law is, there is no transgression" there had to be laws communicated to them by God through the Patriarchs.



The Gentiles never had the law of Moses, but there are certain fundamental principles that inhere in the nature of our existence and in our relations to one another. Some things are right, and some things are wrong, within themselves. If a man never had revelation from God, he would know that it was wrong to murder his fellow man, or to rob him of his possessions, or in any way to infringe on his rights. Cain sinned in killing his brother and felt his guilt, though we have no record that God had told him not to kill. God’s moral law is the same to all nations…..(Gentiles) did have an idea of right and wrong (1988, p. 57). RL Whiteside

The Gentiles’ Patriarchal Law involved all “the law written in their hearts,” plus whatever direct revelation they received from God. Adam, Cain, Noah, and Abraham all received direct revelation from God. These, and all others who were never under the Law of Moses (e.g., Cornelius, Acts 10), were to obey the commands given to them, as well as “law written in their hearts.” Together, these laws and eternal principles written in the hearts of man made up what is known commonly as “the Patriarchal Law.” Eric Lyons

 

[williemac]

I disagree, it is necessary to commit sin to be a sinner, 1 Jn 3:4 Just as it is necessary to do righteousness to be righteous, 1 Jn 3:7.

Rom 9:11, before anyone is born they have done no good or evil, so before one is born he is neither a sinner or righteous, he is in an innocent, neutral state. As Paul said in Rom 7:8,9 Paul said once in his life sin was dead to him, it had no power over him ( an innocent, neutral state) and that would have been when he was an infant/child and not accountable to God's law. Not being accountable to law then there was no sin Paul could commit since law defines sin. Yet when Paul matured and learned right from worng, THEN sin came alive in him. So sin was not alive in him before he was born or after he was born as an infant/child.

Calling one a sinner before he has sinned is like calling a board stained before you have put any stain upon it.

You posted "1John 3:15, it isn't necessary to actually kill
somebody in order to be profiled a murderer. All you have to do is be angry
enough to do it; which is proof enough that were you at liberty to kill; you
would."


Yet a newly conceived infant has neither done good OR EVIL, Rom 9:11. So since a newly conceived person has neither physically murdered anyone or be angry at anyone in his heart without cause, then how can he be called a sinner/murderer?

Not only has a newly conceived person not committed murder either actually or in his heart, he has not committed adultery either physically or in his heart, he has not lied, he has not stolen, he has not taken God's name in vain, he has not worshipped idols, he has not committed any fornication, no envyings, no strife or wrath, has not committed any sin listed in Gal 5:19,20,21 or 1 Cor 6:9,10 or any sin listed anywhere in the bible.


Gen 13:13 those of Sodom were sinners for they did transgress God's law. They were not called "wicked and sinners" for no particular reason. God had laws prior to the law of Moses regarding marriage and sex between men and women and not men and men, Gen 2:22-25 . God had laws all the way back to the garden of Eden about not eating of a particular tree.

These arguments are valid. However, it should be noted that a baby is born without God. Therefore it cannot be said that a baby is righteous either, just because it is not yet a sinner. The tree of life was removed from man's access to it. So then a baby is born without everlasting life.

All of this adds up to a foregone conclusion that the person will eventually attempt to attain life from within his own resources. And this is where sin enters the picture. It is an inevitability in all humans born after Adam. No man has the ability to produce life or righteousness from his own resources. These must be given by God. In the meantime, every single person born after Adam falls short of the righteousness that is required to merit eternal life. So it is rather a mute point to insist that a baby is not a sinner when it is born. It is just a matter of time. Anyone and everyone born after Adam is doomed to die in sin unless he encounters grace. We were all born without the ability to avoid becoming sinners.

 

[Webers_Home]

Gen 13:13 those of Sodom were sinners for they did transgress God's law.

According to Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17, God's laws cannot be
broken until they are introduced. In other words: His laws aren't retroactive.
So then, seeing as how Sodom and Gomorrah existed something like 400
years prior to the official introduction of God's laws, then the people of
Sodom and Gomorrah could not be legally charged with breaking one of
them.

Q: Then why did God exterminate the people of Sodom and Gomorrah if
they had broken none of His laws?

A: It was personal; viz: God simply didn't like them.


Buen Camino
/

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

According to Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17, God's laws cannot be
broken until they are introduced. In other words: His laws aren't retroactive.
So then, seeing as how Sodom and Gomorrah existed something like 400
years prior to the official introduction of God's laws, then the people of
Sodom and Gomorrah could not be legally charged with breaking one of
them.

Q: Then why did God exterminate the people of Sodom and Gomorrah if
they had broken none of His laws?

A: It was personal; viz: God simply didn't like them.


Buen Camino
/

SImply is not possible. God's word says "sin is transgression of the law" and that "for where law is not, neither [is] transgression"

So there would have been laws for them to be able to transgress. Noah was a preacher of righteousness and righteousness defines what is right and wrong. So what was Noah preaching when he preached righteousness if there were no laws, no right and wrong? They knew what God's law was whether is was given to them orally by the Patraich as Abraham or written in their heart. The bible tells us God is love yet you have God not liking people for no particular reason or just randomly.

These arguments are valid. However, it should be noted that a baby is born without God. Therefore it cannot be said that a baby is righteous either, just because it is not yet a sinner. The tree of life was removed from man's access to it. So then a baby is born without everlasting life.

All of this adds up to a foregone conclusion that the person will eventually attempt to attain life from within his own resources. And this is where sin enters the picture. It is an inevitability in all humans born after Adam. No man has the ability to produce life or righteousness from his own resources. These must be given by God. In the meantime, every single person born after Adam falls short of the righteousness that is required to merit eternal life. So it is rather a mute point to insist that a baby is not a sinner when it is born. It is just a matter of time. Anyone and everyone born after Adam is doomed to die in sin unless he encounters grace. We were all born without the ability to avoid becoming sinners.

I did post "Rom 9:11, before anyone is born they have done no good or evil, so before one is born he is neither a sinner or righteous, he is in an innocent, neutral state.."


Since you or I or anyone else had not done any righteousness or unrighteousness before we were born we were all born in an inncoent, neutral state. And as we matured and learned right from wrong, Isa 7:15,16, then we do unrighteousness and sin comes alive in as as with Paul. Abraham was not born righteous but he was later in his life reckoned righteous by God because of his obedient faith. Was Abraham's obedience perfect? No, Can I make myself righteous? No, Only God can make me rightoeus but God only makes those righteous who are obedient to Him....1 Jn 3:7 "he who is doing the righteousness is righteous" Acts 10:35 those who work righteousness are accepted with God. Doing/working righteousness is obeying God's commands.

 

[williemac]

Since you or I or anyone else had not done any righteousness or unrighteousness before we were born we were all born in an inncoent, neutral state. And as we matured and learned right from wrong, Isa 7:15,16, then we do unrighteousness and sin comes alive in as as with Paul. Abraham was not born righteous but he was later in his life reckoned righteous by God because of his obedient faith. Was Abraham's obedience perfect? No, Can I make myself righteous? No, Only God can make me rightoeus but God only makes those righteous who are obedient to Him....1 Jn 3:7 "he who is doing the righteousness is righteous" Acts 10:35 those who work righteousness are accepted with God. Doing/working righteousness is obeying God's commands.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. How do we know he believed God? We are informed in James, that it was because he was willing to sacrifice his son, as God instructed him to do. God had promised him that it was through this same son that his seed would be named. So Abraham figured that God simply planned on raising him up after he was dead.

So let's get this straight. The obedience of Abraham had nothing to do with any laws or moral commands. In fact, Rahab is also mentioned by James. A harlot! By helping God's messengers she showed that she believed God's promise to spare her if she did.

So now, we are told that Jesus died for our sin and it is by His righteous act that we are made righteous. So what works of obedience on our part will show that we believe God? The obedience of faith in confessing our sin to God, and the confession of faith mentioned in Rom.10:9,10.

Obeying a moral command does not in itself prove what we believe. In fact, if someone is doing that in order to be saved, then they are showing by their works that they do not believe the gospel.

The gift of life and righteousness is given upon the new birth. This is a one time event that is not a reward because a person decided that he should behave himself. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. The new man WAS created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph.4:24) . This new man is our new spirit. It contains the seed of Christ. It is the first step in God's plan to do away with our species altogether and start over with a new one...born of Him by faith.

An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree. We are also called to bear fruit. We do works of righteousness because of who we are after having been reborn. God does not grant the gift of righteousness to a person because 'the person' has done righteous works.

Here is the real truth, from Rom.5:19...." For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience many will be made righteous" . That one man is none other than Jesus.

We can also take this from Rom.5:18...." Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act, the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life".

Don't for a moment think that anyone ever received righteousness from God because of their own obedience. The only obedience that can result in receiving from God is that of faith and faith alone.

Believe God. He made the promise. It is His to keep. It is ours to receive. He is the giver of life. We are the receivers of it. We did nothing to earn or deserve it. We live because He is good. There is none good (of himself) but God.

 

[Poppin]

Adam`s first sons Abel and Cain - murder had already begun in Adams family.

Genesis 5:3
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

Adam was created in the likeness of God - until he fell and became a sinner.

Adam was a sinner, now : by nature. He begat children in his likeness, in his own image. All have sinned.

Ephesians 2:3
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. How do we know he believed God? We are informed in James, that it was because he was willing to sacrifice his son, as God instructed him to do. God had promised him that it was through this same son that his seed would be named. So Abraham figured that God simply planned on raising him up after he was dead.

So let's get this straight. The obedience of Abraham had nothing to do with any laws or moral commands. In fact, Rahab is also mentioned by James. A harlot! By helping God's messengers she showed that she believed God's promise to spare her if she did.

So now, we are told that Jesus died for our sin and it is by His righteous act that we are made righteous. So what works of obedience on our part will show that we believe God? The obedience of faith in confessing our sin to God, and the confession of faith mentioned in Rom.10:9,10.

Obeying a moral command does not in itself prove what we believe. In fact, if someone is doing that in order to be saved, then they are showing by their works that they do not believe the gospel.

The gift of life and righteousness is given upon the new birth. This is a one time event that is not a reward because a person decided that he should behave himself. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. The new man WAS created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph.4:24) . This new man is our new spirit. It contains the seed of Christ. It is the first step in God's plan to do away with our species altogether and start over with a new one...born of Him by faith.

An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree. We are also called to bear fruit. We do works of righteousness because of who we are after having been reborn. God does not grant the gift of righteousness to a person because 'the person' has done righteous works.

Here is the real truth, from Rom.5:19...." For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience many will be made righteous" . That one man is none other than Jesus.

We can also take this from Rom.5:18...." Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act, the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life".

Don't for a moment think that anyone ever received righteousness from God because of their own obedience. The only obedience that can result in receiving from God is that of faith and faith alone.

Believe God. He made the promise. It is His to keep. It is ours to receive. He is the giver of life. We are the receivers of it. We did nothing to earn or deserve it. We live because He is good. There is none good (of himself) but God.

I am at a loss at how you can say "The obedience of Abraham had nothing to do with any laws or moral commands" when his obedience to God's commands is the very reason he was reckoned righteous. Would he have been reckoned righteous and justifed if he had disobeyed the command to sacrifice Isaac? No.... "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Yes, he was jusitifed by his obeident works.


You post "we are told that Jesus died for our sin and it is by His righteous act that we are made righteous"


But we are made righteous CONDITIONALLY by obeying Christ's gospel by believing repenting confessing and being baptized. IF man is made righteous unconditonally then everyone would be saved for Jesus died for the sins of every man, Heb 2:9


You post "Obeying a moral command does not in itself prove what we believe. In fact, if someone is doing that in order to be saved, then they are showing by their works that they do not believe the gospel."


James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

If a person has no works, ie, does not obey God's commands, then he cannot even prove he has faith. THe works/obedience is what proves the faith so if there is no works/obedience then there is no faith. Lev 17:11 says life is in the blood. The life of faith is in the works. SO if there is no works then all there is is a dead faith as without blood there is just dead flesh. Abrhams' faith would have been dead without the obedient work in sacrificing Isaac.

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Rom 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Please do not read into this verse that many were made sinners UNCONDITIONALLY or that many were made righteous UNCONDITIONALLY for Paul NEVER said such.

Many are made sinners Paul says in verse 12 "for that all have sinned". Because men conditionally choose to commit sins then they are made sinners based on their free will choice to sin

Many are made righteous CONDITIONALLY by having faith Rom 5:1,2. As men choose conditionally to sin and be made sinners, men also conditionally choose to OBEY by having faith and therefore be made righteous.


Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

FIrst to note about this verse is that "all men" refer to the same people both times. I have had Calvinists on other forums tell me that the first part of this verse, that "all men" to condemnation means all men are unconditionally born sinners. If that's the case, then this same "all men" will be unconditionally justified and saved and Calvinists create Universalism out of this verse.

This verse is a "if-then" type statement meaning if "A" is true, then "B" is also true. So IF it is true all men are born with Adam's sin and therefore unconditionally condemned, THEN it is just as true these same "all men" will be given unconditional justification eternal life by Jesus.


Paul's point in the verse is that as many as have been affected by sin since sin entered the world, Christ has a remedy for that sin.

This verse also refutes Calvinistic idea of limited atonement. Again, Christ has a remedy for all that have been affected by sin and it is not just the Calvnistic elect that have been affected by sin, but all men have been affected by sin therefore Christ died for all men, has a remedy for all men.