Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Dropship]

..there is no reason to ever give blood even in trauma units...Most people are not aware that there are safer alternatives to blood transfusions..

Thanks, i'll research it some more and if it pans out i'll ask my doctor to insert in my medical notes that on no account do I want a blood transfusion if alternatives are available..

 

[Dropship]

Nothing wrong with a juicy steak....as long as the meat is properly bled. Ask any Jew about what is required by them to enjoy a juicy steak....

How do we know if our shrink-wrapped steak or pack of sausages etc have been "properly bled?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Scripture does not say what you claim it does. Read the context and another translation.

For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit;
1 Peter 3:18​

The verse is saying that he was brought to life by the will and Spirit of God. The verse is NOT saying that the man became a ghost, living as a Spirit.

It depends on what translation you use.....
Most do not render it as your favored translation does.
Here it is in other widely accepted translations....

ASV..."Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit".

ESV..."For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit".

Mounce Interlinear..."Because Christ also suffered once for our sins, the righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit".

NASB..."For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit".

NET..."Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit."

NIV..."For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."

NLT..."Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit."

YLT..."because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit".

So how are we to understand this? What does it mean when Jesus is said to be "firstborn from the dead"? (Colossians 1:18-20) He wasn't the first human to be resurrected, so in what way was he "first"?
When he told his apostles that he was going to 'prepare a place for them in his Father's house', where was he going to do that?
John 14:2-3...
"In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be."

Since he was going to heaven, his apostles and disciples would also go there to be with him. And since flesh cannot enter heaven.....
"But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality." ( 1 Corinthians 15:5--53)....his "joint-heirs" (those who share his inheritance. Romans 8:17) will also be changed...transformed into spirit beings in order to enter his Father's house. Just as Jesus was raised in the spirit, so will his elect. They were baptized into his death, meaning that they too would die the same death and experience the same resurrection as he did. (Romans 6:5)

Jesus said that he had 'come down from heaven', (John 6:38) and was returning there to prepare for them, he was also said to 'sit at his Father's right hand' untill his enemies were placed as his footstool. (Psalm 110:1-2)

We see Jesus and his co-rulers as governing redeemed mankind on the earth.....the Kingdom is in heaven, seen to be bringing its rulership to those who live on the earth. (Revelation 21:1-4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

How do we know if our shrink-wrapped steak or pack of sausages etc have been "properly bled?

In my country...it is the law that animals be properly bled...this also enhances the meat, which if the blood is left in, makes the steak tough.
So Israel was forbidden to eat unbled meat and not to consume blood in any way. The prohibition applied to eating blood, but if one cannot est by mouth, food is given intravenously, so to us, transfusion is simply another way to 'eat' blood. This prohibition was repeated three times in three different eras. The first time was when Noah came out of the ark and was given permission for the first time to eat the flesh of animals. (Genesis 9)
The second time was when he gave his laws to Israel (Leviticus 7:26-27) and lastly he gave the same command to the Christians. (Acts 15:28-29)
This is why we believe that blood is sacred to God and not to be used in ways that he condemns.

 

[DavidB]

Wrong. He was the firstfruits to be raised again from teh dead to a glorified body incapable of death! All other prior resurrections, the people died and are still dead. when Jeus rose He is to die no more! That is what all believers will experience.

Also:

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:23-27
King James Version

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


Jesus said- destroy my body and in three days I will raise my body from teh grave!

I am sorry. but people who believe the bible is God's Word know that Jesus physically rose from the dead!

Wrong again.
1 Corinthians 15 clearly says there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. Jesus is the first fruits of a resurrection from a physical (earthly) body to a spiritual (heavenly) body. Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom.

If Jesus took his blood and flesh back, what was sacrificed? Your belief strips us of the redemptive sacrifice. I do not expect anyone who believes in a 3 headed God who eternally tortures people to have understanding into spiritual matters.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I really love this one, the old “what if everyone refused to go to war.” Think this make believe world through just a little. Where would Hitler be if all Germans had been JW’s? In the real world Germany was full of Catholics and Protestants who were willing to commit the atrocities that real history records.

Great point David, just goes to show you, following God's standards not only benefits us, but the world as well.

 

[Robert Gwin]

No. And I think you know we don’t agree on this point and why we don’t agree.

Make a Blessed Day!

Then why did you say what you said? Is your real concern that you will not be resurrected sir? If you do die before Jesus' return, you will be resurrected, bodily I might add, unless of course you sinned against the holy spirit, of which there is no redemption for.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Have you not read my posts?

Much love!

Basically I respond to the post I am responding to sir, I knew you would not be able to, but I thought you would might at least come up with something. If you want to provide a passage or two to support your statement great, we will move forward from there, if not so be it.

If you would have answered my question, then you would have had your answer sir. No shame in not knowing it, and if you would have asked I would have been glad to share it with you, wouldn't you have to honestly admit, you really do not care to know?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought he referenced Rev 1:5, not Rev 5?



That's unfortunate. I find their posts very well researched, well thought out and respectfully delivered. This is true even when I do not agree with them.

Perhaps his lack of response is my fault. I kind of picked up the gauntlet to the points he made. Please forgive me and @Robert Gwin. Please consider NOT putting them on ignore.

The truth is Wrangler, that the Bible divides sir. There is nothing we can do about it, it honestly was meant to be that way Mat 10:34,35; Jn 10:19. The truth is that all of us are caught up in a battle of two Gods vying for Sovereignty. Each and every one of us stand on one side or the other, and yet one of them has the edge, and while he was less successful in his peers joining him in his rebellion, he has been quite successful in gathering mankind. We do not think Jesus was mistaken when he stated the majority would be on the road to destruction, correct? Those symbolic roads represent those Gods sir, those who serve the true God will be on the road to life, those who serve the other will find themselves on the road to destruction. We have to keep in mind however, Jehovah forces no one to serve Him Wrangler, however, He will not grant everlasting life to those who choose not to, correct? I certainly hope I am in error on this, but I see not Scriptural evidence to show otherwise.

 

[Robert Gwin]

No they are not hard to understand. You are talking about a transliteral translation which does not correct from Greek to English world placement. But a literal word for word translation is fairly easy to understand, if we construct teh sentence in English correctly from the Greek. I will not go into teh lengthy grammatic instruction as to why a Greek to English cxorrect translation moves words around in English!

but a perfect example is JOhn 1:1---En arche ēn ho Logos, kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon, kai Theos ēn o Logos.

If we transliterate that- paart B would be "and God was the Word". but that would be an incorrect construct in English based on the construct of the greek

And when the words are added by bona fide translators- it is because the construct of the Greek shows it to be needed grammatically in english to render a correct grammatic sentence in English!

The Watchtower added "other" in Philippians 2 not because Grammar requires it, but because their false teaching on Jesus needs it!

Why then did you capitalize God? Is it not a grammatical error on your part sir? Ho did not preceed theos there as it did earlier in the verse, so why did you not consistently render it accurately Ron. Is it not to support your own belief in reality?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well you can keep straining at you rgnats to swallow you rcamels all the way to the lake of fire if you wish, butyou are simply lying to yourself!

Jesus did not give degrees in that statement.

"Timao" means reverence" So the same way you reverence the father you reverence the son. The Watchtower te4aches'Well Jesus doesn't mean that literally". We give the Father Worship- we give Jesus just obeisance"

What is the best way to show honor to the son sir? Are Jehovah's witnesses doing that Ron? Be honest please.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus is called God many times. I already posted them to you several times in other threads. If you cannot remember- that is your problem, not mine!

By saying Jesus is not god you make god a liar.

By denying Jesus physically rose from teh dead you make God a liar.

And by declaring numerous Watchtower doctrines as coming from god- you make god a liar!

Jesus is never called God in Scripture sir, only in some versions of the Bible that have been altered to support a belief, as you did earlier. God doesn't lie, imperfect humans do. I personally don't think Peter lied either when Jesus asked him who he thought he was, and I side with Peter especially since Jesus said God revealed that to Peter. Although I showed you his answer before, I will post the account again sir: (Matthew 16:13-17) . . .Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·liʹjah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.
As time progressed, like you many have elevated their opinion on who Jesus is, claiming him to be God. Perhaps God revealed it to me, but at any rate I side with Jesus and Peter and state for the record that Jesus is the anointed one, the son of the living God Jehovah sir. It is possible that you learn from this account, but not probable. Why do you suppose that is Ron? Are you able to look at your responses to me and see the distinction? You should be able to. Mal 3:18

 

[Wrangler]

It depends on what translation you use.....
Most do not render it as your favored translation does.
Here it is in other widely accepted translations....

ASV..."Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit".

I don’t think so. That is, every translation is stating something that o e denomination interprets differently.

The action done to Jesus is ‘made alive.’ Scripture states repeatedly that Jesus is a man and Thomas physically felt his wounds. This confirms the man was not a ghost or spirit.

The verse of what was done to Jesus explains how or in what way, ‘in the Spirit.’

Now some might argue that God cannot do anything any other way. I say this is merely for emphasis of Gods live for us.

Said differently , ‘in the Spirit’ applies to God, the one who acted on Jesus and not the object of the sentence, Jesus.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well how about becoming non-denominational like me?;
Me and other non-denoms follow Jesus on a personal level because he said-
"You have one teacher, me" (Matthew 23:10)
I mean, he's simple enough to understand-
"And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37)
So it beats me why people think they have to join organised religions and cults to let them do their thinking for them..

How does that fit in with 1 Cor 1:10 Drop? How bout Heb 10:24,25? Do you honestly think that God requires something from us and does not instruct us how to do it?

 

[Robert Gwin]

.
Continued From No.822


I took the liberty to alter the verses below to keep them consistent with the
Watchtower Society's translations of John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17.

• Gen 1:1 . . In the beginning a god created the heavens and the earth.

• Heb 3:4 . . Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that
constructed all [other] things is a god.
_

Altering passages of the Bible to prove a point is worthless Web, so why do it sir?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All sin, some practice sin. But there are 2 lists of unacceptable sins at 1 Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21--Both spots teach--will not enter Gods kingdom if they practice one of those sins. Paul mentioned spiritism at Gal- the Greek word=Pharmacia=drug addiction is apart of that meaning. So along with all the false god worship and those 2 lists=99% mislead into not entering Gods kingdom. Jesus compared these last days to Noahs day(99.9% mislead)Luke 17:26--The reason Jesus knew--FEW will find the road that leads off into life.

Well I am glad you added trhe qword practicing- because that is the issue. Not someone who may fail and fall some times, but an unrepentant practicioner of sin.

And yes the Road to life is very narrow- it is Jesus

And to get on that road one has to believe in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin debt.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Q: But you say you o.k. translations?
A: I o.k. translations.

Q: If you o.k. them they automatically go to the president, do they?
A: They go to the president, and he gives further consideration to the matter



After a few more questions, the court was adjourned until the next day; Wednesday, November 24, 1954. Again, Frederick Franz took the stand. Beginning with p.102 and following:



Q: Would you please look at number 42 of process, which is the New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. I think we come to the name Jehovah in the fourth verse, don't we, of the second chapter of Genesis, page 34?
A: Yes.

Q: You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
A: I do not speak Hebrew.

Q: You do not?
A: No.

Q: Can you yourself translate that into Hebrew?
A: Which?

Q: That fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis?
A: You mean here?

Q: Yes.
A: No. I won't attempt to do that.

Q: And the footnote there shows, and I understand correctly, the name Jehovah in the original Hebrew consisted simply of consonants?
A: That is right.

Q:It was called the Tetragrammaton?
A: Yes

Q: Do you subscribe to the view that in ancient Hebrew it was the ineffable name which was not to be pronounced?
A: According to the Jewish tradition which developed later on after the closing of the canon that was not to be pronounced.

Q: But you follow later manuscripts, do you, in inserting vowels to make it a word which may be pronounced?
A: Yes. The Masoretic text contains the vowels. That is the traditional text.

Q: Do you, yourself, speak Aramaic?
A: No.

And HIs answer to whether he could translate the passage in Genesis tells all we need to know! The translators ansd the editor (Franz) of those translations were all pseudo scholars.

I took Greek and Hebrew in bible school but would never dare say I could render accurate translations. I can look and use the grammatic tools well, but it takes years of linguist study to faithfully translate anything.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Wrong again.
1 Corinthians 15 clearly says there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. Jesus is the first fruits of a resurrection from a physical (earthly) body to a spiritual (heavenly) body. Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom.

If Jesus took his blood and flesh back, what was sacrificed? Your belief strips us of the redemptive sacrifice. I do not expect anyone who believes in a 3 headed God who eternally tortures people to have understanding into spiritual matters.

Yes and He displayed that heavenly body on earth!

It is a physical body restored to perfection like Asam was prior to sin. See! All we need is teh bible to tell us what things are. but we do not know all the whats of how that glorified body works.

Jesus being the first fruit of the resurrection from the dead- As it is written also in 1 Cor. 15:

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We live and die in bodies of corruption, but we will stand again (resurrected) in incorruptible bodies. these bodies will undergo a change. same body with changes made!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why then did you capitalize God? Is it not a grammatical error on your part sir? Ho did not preceed theos there as it did earlier in the verse, so why did you not consistently render it accurately Ron. Is it not to support your own belief in reality?

YOu are a careless reader. I already explained that.

I rendered it according to proper rules of Greek to Enjglish translation and did not transliterate it. Transliteration most times is incorrect grammar in English. But teh construct in Greek shows how we properly tranlsate. I cannot write the lengthy rules of why you are straining at gnats again!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What is the best way to show honor to the son sir? Are Jehovah's witnesses doing that Ron? Be honest please.

By denying the physical resurrection of Jesus- they are dishonoring both Father and Son. As I told you several times, JW's have an enormous zeal for God, but it is not with correct knowledge of the truth as to who Jesus is and what He accomplished at Calvary.

Most JW's are filled with "good works" and seek to know the Scriptures (though through an abomination called the New 'World Translation).

Sadly JW's who die in the belief of Jesus the Watchtower teaches will stand before the Lord just like this:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is as honest as I can make it.

Also this:

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Men like Russel, Rutherford, Franz and those who bring in lots of people into the Watchtower face a terrifying wake up call before the throne of God!