Arminius' conditional and Calvin's unconditional election are logically unsound

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AlfredPersson

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[SIZE=14pt]Election Conditioned On Love[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom 8:28 NKJ)[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=14pt]God called to those who loved God because “all things” work together for the good of those who love God and God’s calling is “a thing.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So Arminius’ election conditioned on foreseen faith and Calvin’s unconditional election are impossible as only a call to those who love God "before the foundation of the world...before Him in love" (Eph 1:4 NKJ) can be according to His purpose.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. (Rom 4:4 NKJ)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]In contrast to work which springs from the will and requires wages to be paid, love doesn’t spring from the will nor require wages be paid. As love does not require wages, any response to love is “of Him” being loved, according to the good pleasure of His will, by grace (undeserved kindness) and not of works.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]As election does not stand upon works, Arminius is wrong. As God loved Jacob, but Esau He hated, election cannot be unconditional, God saw something in Jacob and Esau that inspired these opposite responses. It is impossible God look upon Jacob and Esau and His emotion not “conspire with His wisdom---be against all reason”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Rom 9:11-13 NKJ)[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=14pt]In Rom 8:28 they love God, in Rom 9:13 God loves them. As Love is not a work and God is under no obligation to pay wages to those who love Him, His loving them back was the good pleasure of His will, “undeserved kindness” (grace) and mercy and not of him who wills or runs. Therefore there is no unrighteousness with God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." (Rom 9:11-15 NKJ) [/SIZE]
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[SIZE=14pt]As all things work together for the good to those who love God, and Mercy is a thing, God has mercy upon all those who love God. As love is not of the will, or of running, God’s mercy is entirely “of God” and not of those being shown mercy.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom 9:16-24 NKJ)
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[SIZE=14pt]God is Sovereign, no one resists His will, so how can He find fault? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Elementary, "What if" God gave these space to repent, endured them much long suffering although He knew ultimately these who hated Him before the foundation of the world would reject Him in this life---YET He waited patiently giving them all an equal opportunity to repent and be saved. What if God did that, is there still unrighteousness with God? Of course not! [/SIZE]
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[SIZE=14pt]9:22–24 Up to this point Paul had insisted that God acts in sovereign freedom. The clay has no right to question the intentions of the potter. But here he added another perspective. The “objects of wrath” are not summarily dismissed with no concern for their lot as those not chosen. That God exercised great patience with them indicates that there is more to be learned about why they “deserve wrath and are maturing for destruction” (v. 22, Berkeley). God’s sovereignty does not reduce humans to helpless automatons. Although it was God’s will to show his wrath against sin and make known his power, he nevertheless postponed action against those who will someday experience his judicial displeasure.28 Earlier we learned that God’s kindness was intended to lead the sinner to repentance (2:4). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Mounce, R. H. (1995). Romans (Vol. 27, p. 202). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]In v. 22 the crucial problem is to interpret correctly the expression “prepared for destruction.” Is Paul teaching a double predestination? This is improbable, because he avoids involving God in this case, whereas he is involved in showing mercy to the objects of his mercy (v. 23). Furthermore, God’s patience in bearing with the objects of his wrath suggests a readiness to receive such on condition of repentance (cf. 2:3, 4; 2 Peter 3:9). So “prepared for destruction” designates a ripeness of sinfulness that points to judgment unless there is a turning to God, yet God is not made responsible for the sinful condition. The preparation for destruction is the work of man, who allows himself to deteriorate in spite of knowledge and conscience. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Harrison, E. F. (1976). Romans. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Romans through Galatians (Vol. 10, p. 107). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]Note the following:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]a. God … bore with great patience[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The patience of God, his reluctance to punish sinners, is stressed in several passages; among them being Rom. 2:4—see p. 90; Gen. 6:3b; 18:26–32; Exod. 34:6; 1 Kings 21:29; Neh. 9:17b; Ps. 86:15; 10:8–14; 145:8, 9; Isa. 5:1–4; Ezek. 18:23, 32; 33:11; Luke 13:6–9; Rev. 2:21.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]b. vessels of wrath[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Who are these vessels of wrath? Some identify them with the prospective believers of Eph. 2:3. But is it not more natural, in the present context, to think of men like Pharaoh, the impenitent; in other words, of reprobates? It is comforting to know that, as remarked previously—see p. 321—God shows patience even with those who are ultimately lost! This explanation also harmonizes with the next point:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]c. prepared281 for destruction[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Paul does not state who it was that prepared these people or made them ripe for destruction. From 9:18 some have drawn the conclusion that it was God. But here in verse 22 we are not told that it was God. And even if it was God, then must we not assume that his action of hardening their hearts, and thus preparing them for destruction, followed, and was a punishment for their own action of hardening themselves? But it is not at all impossible that the apostle wishes to present a contrast between the present passage and verse 23, where the active agent is mentioned, in order to show that here, in verse 22, the people themselves—in co-operation with Satan!—were the active agents; as, for example, also in 1 Thess. 2:14b, 15, 16; whereas in Rom. 9:23 God is said to be the One who prepares, and there in a favorable sense; see below.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]d. choosing to show his wrath and to make known his power[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It is exactly to hardened sinners, men like Esau (9:13), Pharaoh (9:17, 18), and Judas the traitor (Luke 22:22; John 13:18; 17:12; Acts 1:15–20, 25), impenitents all; that is, to those people who to the very end refuse to respond favorably to God’s patient appeals, that God shows his wrath and makes known his power.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]e. (doing this), that is, bearing with great patience vessels of wrath, to make known the riches of his glory (lavished) upon vessels of mercy.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]This reason is co-ordinate with that mentioned above under d. Both modify the main clause (a. God bore with great patience).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It was exactly God’s great patience with Pharaoh and his people, his delay in pouring out upon them the full measure of the punishment they had deserved, that provided the opportunity to make known the riches of God’s glory lavished on the Israel of that early day. If Pharaoh had been immediately destroyed, who would have become aware of God’s mercy toward Israel? But as the ten plagues followed each other, one by one, that mercy became increasingly evident. Note the following:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]In connection with the fifth plague: “But the Lord will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that no animal belonging to the Israelites will die … All the livestock of the Egyptians died, but of the animals belonging to the Israelites died not one” (Exod. 9:4, 6).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]seventh plague: “Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel lived, was there no hail” (Exod. 9:26).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]ninth plague: “No one could see anyone else or leave his place for three days; but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings” (Exod. 10:23).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]tenth plague: “There will be loud wailing throughout all the land of Egypt … but among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal, that you may know that the Lord makes a distinction between the Egyptians and Israel … The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you” (Exod. 11:6, 7; 12:13).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The same principle is always operating. God is ever bearing with great patience vessels of wrath, to make known the riches of his glory lavished on vessels of mercy.- Hendriksen, W., & Kistemaker, S. J. (1953–2001). Exposition of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans (Vol. 12–13, pp. 328–329). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.
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KingJ

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AlfredPersson said:
[SIZE=14pt]As election does not stand upon works, Arminius is wrong. As God loved Jacob, but Esau He hated, election cannot be unconditional, God saw something in Jacob and Esau that inspired these opposite responses. It is impossible God look upon Jacob and Esau and His emotion not “conspire with His wisdom---be against all reason”.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
So, what you are saying is that if we had to kill some babies, some of them like Esau would go to hell? Clearly defies logic and where scripture points.

You are misrepresenting Arminianism. Election does not stand upon works.
  1. Salvation (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the graciously enabled faith (or unbelief) of man;
  2. the atonement is qualitatively adequate for all men, "yet that no one actually enjoys [experiences] this forgiveness of sins, except the believer..." and thus is limited to only those who trust in Christ;
  3. "That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will," and unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God’s will;
  4. The (Christian) grace "of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of any good", yet man may resist the Holy Spirit; and
  5. Believers are able to resist sin through grace, and Christ will keep them from falling, but whether they are beyond the possibility of ultimately forsaking God or "becoming devoid of grace", "must be more particularly determined
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism