Asleep or Alive?

[sjmopas]

I think Stephen is alive now not dead, that would defeat the purpose of Christ coming to giveeternal life. This was the great change from to the old(OT) to the new(NT).Stephen got the heavenly body as Paul talks about in 2Cor.5:1-3.Jesus came to destroy death of the soul - that is for the believers.

Hi Bible Gazer.

I was curious to know how it defeats Christ's gift of eternal life for Steven to be in the grave now? Also, what do you think eternal life is? Is it only our spirits that recieve eternal life, what happens to our bodies? If our bodies and spirits receive eternal life at the same time, then how does any true believer experience sickness, and death? There are specific gifts for specific times. As Christians we get to experience the gift of physical intimacy only after we have married our spouse. Isn't it possible that the application of the gift of eternal life has a specific time? Right now you and I have the hope that we will receive the promised gift (Ephesians 1:14), but unless Christ returns during our lifetime, you and I will die, so we know that our physical bodies have not been granted the gift of eternal life yet.

Well said Bible_Gazer,

John 14:2
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:42

There are a multitude of believers already in heaven...and more to come.

Revelation 69 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Note that these ones were slain for the word of God and the testimony they held, awaiting the number of their fellow servants and brethren to be killed as they were...had been completed. :huh:Revelation 79 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

These ones come out of the great tribulation.

Hi Angelina,

Just a few comment about the first two texts you quoted as proof that people are in heaven right now.

Jesus said that there are many dwellings in His Father's house, but He did not say that there were people dwelling in them. Actually Jesus is refering to a future dwelling in this passage.

You also mention Jesus' promise to the man on the cross. If Jesus intended for that man to go directly to a heavenly realm immediately after he closed his eyes in death, to be with Jesus, wouldn't Jesus have lied to Him? Jesus did not go to heaven until nearly 50 days later? The same day of His resurrection He tells Mary not to cling to Him because He had not ascended (John 20:17). Which Jesus was the theif with in Heaven?

 

[Angelina]

Greetings sj

Jesus said that there are many dwellings in His Father's house, but He did not say that there were people dwelling in them. Actually Jesus is refering to a future dwelling in this passage.

My point was "dwelling places" meaning more than one place in heaven...ie: paradise of God, Kingdom of heaven, throne-room etc

You also mention Jesus' promise to the man on the cross. If Jesus intended for that man to go directly to a heavenly realm immediately after he closed his eyes in death, to be with Jesus, wouldn't Jesus have lied to Him?

Not if his intention was what I believe he meant which was "from this day forth" rather than "this day"

Jesus did not go to heaven until nearly 50 days later? The same day of His resurrection He tells Mary not to cling to Him because He had not ascended (John 20:17). Which Jesus was the theif with in Heaven?

Please show me in the bible where it says that Jesus ascended 50 days after he was resurrected???

 

[sjmopas]

Greetings sj


My point was "dwelling places" meaning more than one place in heaven...ie: paradise of God, Kingdom of heaven, throne-room etc



Not if his intention was what I believe he meant which was "from this day forth" rather than "this day"


Jesus did not go to heaven until nearly 50 days later? The same day of His resurrection He tells Mary not to cling to Him because He had not ascended (John 20:17). Which Jesus was the theif with in Heaven?

Please show me in the bible where it says that Jesus ascended 50 days after he was resurrected???

In Acts 1:1-9, specifically verse 3, it says that after His resurrection Jesus appeared to His disciples for 40 days before ascending to Heaven. That's why I said, "...nearly 50 days", not 50 exactly. The point remains, if Jesus' statement meant that the man on the cross would be with Him in Heaven the same day of His death, why did He not fulfill that promise? That would make Him a liar.

 

[Angelina]

In Acts 1:1-9, specifically verse 3, it says that after His resurrection Jesus appeared to His disciples for 40 days before ascending to Heaven. That's why I said, "...nearly 50 days", not 50 exactly. The point remains, if Jesus' statement meant that the man on the cross would be with Him in Heaven the same day of His death, why did He not fulfill that promise? That would make Him a liar.

Exactly...and Jesus is not a liar therefore the wording in Luke 23:43 cannot mean that very day, however, it does fit in with the rest of what I had already stated. Please note the difference between Jesus resurrection in which he spent 3 days in the belly of the earth and Jesus ascension, Meaning after his resurrection he was seen by many just as you have pointed out.

 

[sjmopas]

Angelina, what are your thoughts on 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?

 

[Born_Again]

Well, this is certainly an interesting debate...... I have a question though, based off of what i have read from all the posts.... If we receive eternal life, but suffer a mortal death and dont actually dwell anywhere, then what happens? If nothing happens, then whats the point other than just a better way of living while we are on this Earth. If we die, do we just push daisys until the He returns??? What happens to our Souls, do they just chill and read a book?

Please keep in mind, I know the answers to my questions, it's just interesting to see others takes on things.... I also urge everyone to be careful about mis-reading His word and bending it.... He is not a huge fan of that, Though I dont have it on hand, there is scripture stating such.... So, please, play on...

 

[sjmopas]

Born_Again,

it seems that there is really two views being discussed here, perhaps with slight variations of either view. If I have understood correctly we are talking about whether believers who die go directly to a heavenly realm, in the presence of God, or they remain in their graves, dead, only to regain any form of conciousness, spiritual or physical, at Christ's second coming.

Each person has been sharing their perspective, and supplying some or all of the verses that lead them to their conclusions.

At this point of my life I have not been convinced that the scriptures teach that believers are immediately transfered into the presence of God in a concious state. There are plenty of verses and passages that seem to point to an immediate transfer from the moment of death to heaven, but there are just as many verses and passages that seem to point to the other. Based off of a study of those scriptures, it seems to me that God has appointed a time for everything, and that He appointed believers to receive eternal life at the 2nd coming of His Son.

Like I said, this is where I am at with this specific topic at this point in my life. God may lead me, through many different ways, to a differnet perspective in the future, but this is the what I believe scripture, as a whole, has to say about the topic.

Is your view that believers remain unconcious in every way until Christ's 2nd coming or do you believe they are immediatly transfered to a heavenly realm in the presence of God; or do you have an altogether different view?

 

[Born_Again]

The way I see it, if we dont go upon mortal death, it seems there would be some sort of description of what we would do in the interim. It is my belief that we join upon mortal death. That being said, scripture does support the idea that we are all judged at the same time, i.e. 2nd coming. If that is true, is time irrelevant after death so we dont realize it's been that long.

I guess, my question is, if we do not join Him after mortal death, what happens in between? Should we be burried with a good book to keep us busy?

 

[sjmopas]

Born_Again,

I believe scripture does describe what happens in the period between death and Christ's 2nd coming. It describes it in a way that leads some to call it soul sleep; I don't like that term, I think it seperates me as a whole person. Even though people are both physical and spiritual, there is no point in scripture, that I am aware of, I could be wrong on this, where we are taught that we have a spiritual conciousness without physical conciousness. There are verses that sound like this is true, but you have to isolate them from their immidiate context and the rest of the council of God.

I believe that when we die we lose all awareness, physicaly, mentaly, and spiritually. Basically we return to the level of awareness we had before we were born. My hope in Christ is that, when He returns He will return conciousnes to me, and give me the gifts I hoped in Him for: eternal life, both spiritually and physically, and grant me a place in His presence.

There are some who say we will not have physical bodies, but the NT says we will be like Him, and when He rose from the dead He definately had a physical body; although different from the physical bodies we know as fallen creatures.

I can't help but answer your last question. If we do not join the Lord immidaitely after we die, I would recomend a comfortable mattress, and a down pillow. =)

 

[Born_Again]

Born_Again,

I believe scripture does describe what happens in the period between death and Christ's 2nd coming. It describes it in a way that leads some to call it soul sleep; I don't like that term, I think it seperates me as a whole person. Even though people are both physical and spiritual, there is no point in scripture, that I am aware of, I could be wrong on this, where we are taught that we have a spiritual conciousness without physical conciousness. There are verses that sound like this is true, but you have to isolate them from their immidiate context and the rest of the council of God.

I believe that when we die we lose all awareness, physicaly, mentaly, and spiritually. Basically we return to the level of awareness we had before we were born. My hope in Christ is that, when He returns He will return conciousnes to me, and give me the gifts I hoped in Him for: eternal life, both spiritually and physically, and grant me a place in His presence.

There are some who say we will not have physical bodies, but the NT says we will be like Him, and when He rose from the dead He definately had a physical body; although different from the physical bodies we know as fallen creatures.

I can't help but answer your last question. If we do not join the Lord immidaitely after we die, I would recomend a comfortable mattress, and a down pillow. =)

Thank you for the reply. Its interesting to see how much we really don't know about that particular part.

And I will definitely need an adjustable mattress!