Asleep or Alive?

[Angelina]

There is a lot of theology out there regarding the matter of what happens when a believer dies.
This is what I believe but you are welcome to contest my thoughts or perhaps you have an opinion of your own - here goes! ;)

In the O/T the bible teaches that the people whom God chose to lead his people died and were buried. Whether they were kings, leaders or prophets. Peter said at Pentecost that David was dead and buried in the
tomb Acts2:29. David did not ascend into heaven but spoke out concerning Christ, saying:
‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” Act2 2:34-35

The story of Saul and the medium of Endor also gives an indication that Samuel ascended from the grave. " Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" 1 Samuel 28:13, 14, 15. When Saul asked the woman to describe what she was seeing, she replied "“I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”

There have only been two occasions in the bible where God took people while still in their physical bodies.Enoch - Genesis 5:24 and Elijah - 2 Kings 2: 11 but they did not physically die...

The bible tells us that Jesus was the first fruit of those who had fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:20, 21, 22, 23,

I do not believe that anyone had actually gone into heaven via physical death accept the son of man because death meant the grave. Christ had risen from the dead having fulfilled the requirements of the law. John3:13.

When addressing the crowd at Pentecost, Peter said, in reference to king David - "Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. Acts 2: 31-33

The book of Luke tells us that Jesus was hung on the cross between two criminals. One of these criminals hurled abuses at him while the other remarked “Don’t you fear God,” “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:42-43.

I was discussing the word "today" with a friend and we came to the conclusion that "today" was not relating to a specific day but rather "from this time forth"

Jesus spent three days in the heart of the earth just as Jonah spent three days and nights in the belly of the great fish. Matthew 12:40 1 Corinthians15:3-4

While there, he accomplished a number of things...Peter says "18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." 1 Peter 3: 18, 19, 20

Many of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised and came out of their graves after Christ was resurrected. This would have occurred after his three days in the heart of the earth. Matthew 27:50, 51, 52, 53

Ephesians 4
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high,He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill allthings.)

but what does "he led captivity captive" mean? :huh:

There are a lot of theories regarding this scripture. When someone is in captivity it usually means imprisoned. The verse tells us that he led them...he did not take them captive but led the imprisoned ones captive. This can mean a number of things. That he led the imprisoned ones out of captivity to be captive in Christ. Giving gifts to men may imply that his grace was extended to those who were imprisoned in the heart of the earth. This may also refer to the fact that he had the authority over those who were in captivity. Revelation 1:18 says " am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."

My belief is that the saints of God from the O/T who slept were raised after Christ's resurrection and he led the procession into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 22:32 says; ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
A question remains regarding Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...Galatians 3:8 says; And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” This was the line which the Messiah was born through and where the promises were made, by faith.

What of Lazarus, you may ask? The one whom Christ raised from the dead?....
John 11:4, 11, 12, 14,

41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

Did Lazarus physically die again? possibly but he would not have ended up back in the grave because Christ had died and rose again therefore all who are Christ's will rise just as he rose....

My belief is that those who die in Christ from that time forth [after Christ's resurrection] are not asleep...they are very much alive and well in the paradise of God...JMHO :)

 

[Thunderkat]

I have always thought about this as a topic without much weight. My wife believes in soul sleep and I have heard others say the soul doesn't sleep. I say it doesn't matter at all. If the soul is sleeping then passage of time will be quick and they will wake up not realizing how long they were asleep. If there is no soul sleep then the soul misses nothing. Either way the soul will not know a difference.

 

[Raeneske]

There is a lot of theology out there regarding the matter of what happens when a believer dies.
This is what I believe but you are welcome to contest my thoughts or perhaps you have an opinion of your own - here goes! ;)

In the O/T the bible teaches that the people whom God chose to lead his people died and were buried. Whether they were kings, leaders or prophets. Peter said at Pentecost that David was dead and buried in the
tomb Acts2:29. David did not ascend into heaven but spoke out concerning Christ, saying:
‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” Act2 2:34-35

It's important to know that the Bible says David has not ascended into heaven.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

What Peter is here speaking of speaks for not only the past, but of the present tense as well. David has not yet ascended into heaven.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Where is David? David is dead. David is buried.

The story of Saul and the medium of Endor also gives an indication that Samuel ascended from the grave. " Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" 1 Samuel 28:13, 14, 15. When Saul asked the woman to describe what she was seeing, she replied "“I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”

1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

There is no possible way that this is the real Samuel. This would mean that through the power of Satan, that woman brought back to the land of the living one who had been dead. But the Bible is very clear that once someone dies, they have nothing to do with us under the sun anymore. Speaking of the dead, Solomon says...

Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

There is no possible way that that was the real Samuel. What the woman saw was a demon, masquerading as Samuel.

There have only been two occasions in the bible where God took people while still in their physical bodies.Enoch - Genesis 5:24 and Elijah - 2 Kings 2: 11 but they did not physically die...

This seems to imply that God took others into heaven without their physical bodies. Yet we find no evidence of this in the Scriptures. Those who have gone to heaven have taken their physical bodies with them. Enoch and Elijah are examples of the two. Those who ascended with Christ too their bodies into heaven. Moses went into heaven with a physical body.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

There was a dispute over the physical body of Moses. Now, some may consider the souls under the altar in heaven to be evidence, but I must ask, do we really believe that there are souls underneath the altar in heaven? Notice how these souls are crying out about the avenging of blood, and notice a very similar thing happen in Genesis.

Revelation 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Genesis 4:9-10 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Obviously Abel's blood does not literally have a voice that is crying unto God from the ground. And we can understand this much. But a similar image is painted in Revelation, yet is not deemed symbolic, but is taken literally.

The book of Luke tells us that Jesus was hung on the cross between two criminals. One of these criminals hurled abuses at him while the other remarked “Don’t you fear God,” “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:42-43.


I was discussing the word "today" with a friend and we came to the conclusion that "today" was not relating to a specific day but rather "from this time forth"

The word today is the correct word choice, and is the correct understanding of Luke 23. The problem is not in the wording, but in the placement of the comma. Merely the misplacement of the comma causes issues. This you undeniably attest to, because you're trying to figure out how "today" doesn't mean on that very specific day. It does refer to that day, however, with the comma moved to the word after today, it makes much more sense.

Jesus spent three days in the heart of the earth just as Jonah spent three days and nights in the belly of the great fish. Matthew 12:40 1 Corinthians15:3-4

While there, he accomplished a number of things...Peter says "18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." 1 Peter 3: 18, 19, 20

Many of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised and came out of their graves after Christ was resurrected. This would have occurred after his three days in the heart of the earth. Matthew 27:50, 51, 52, 53

Christ did not do anything in the grave.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Christ was dead, meaning he slept in the grave, just like everyone else who dies. If there is no wisdom in the grave, nor knowledge, nor device, nor work, how can Christ possibly be working, and teaching knowledge, and have wisdom, in the grave?

Did Lazarus physically die again? possibly but he would not have ended up back in the grave because Christ had died and rose again therefore all who are Christ's will rise just as he rose....

My belief is that those who die in Christ from that time forth [after Christ's resurrection] are not asleep...they are very much alive and well in the paradise of God...JMHO :)

This seems to state that the state of the dead was different in the Old Testament, than it is now. It sounds very much like you're saying that those who died in the Old Testament went to their graves, and slept. But those in the New Testament don't go to their graves, and do not sleep. But if that's the case... why is death still referred to as sleep? Why does Christ say that the hour is coming when all that are in their graves shall hear His voice and come forth?

The belief that those who die immediately go to heaven or hell needs more thought. Are we really supposed to be teaching people that once the just die, they go to heaven, and at the resurrection they shall go back into their bodies to be resurrected, to go back to heaven again? Are we really supposed to be teaching people that once the wicked die, they go to hell to burn until they are resurrected for the great day of judgment, and then cast right back into the flames of hell? Don't answer that right away. Think about that.

I have always thought about this as a topic without much weight. My wife believes in soul sleep and I have heard others say the soul doesn't sleep. I say it doesn't matter at all. If the soul is sleeping then passage of time will be quick and they will wake up not realizing how long they were asleep. If there is no soul sleep then the soul misses nothing. Either way the soul will not know a difference.

This topic holds much weight for us. Doctrine is of much more importance than the world is currently trying to make it seem like.

Revelation 2:14-15 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Christ had something against His people because they held to the doctrine of Balaam. Christ also made it a point to state that He hated the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Clearly then, there are doctrines we simply cannot hold to. We are thus two examples from the church of Pergamos.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

John warns us not to receive into our house, or bid those God speed who do not believe that Christ Jesus has come in the flesh. This can be denied in more ways than the obvious.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Sound doctrine is important.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Avoiding doctrines of devils is very important. And we are not to be carried away with divers doctrines.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Finally, it is important to note that some worship Christ in vain, because of the doctrines, which are the commandments of men.

 

[Thunderkat]

Well it appears I am not ready for these boards or maybe not meant to be here to begin with. Ok, sorry didn't mean to offend. Take care all.

 

[Raeneske]

Well it appears I am not ready for these boards or maybe not meant to be here to begin with. Ok, sorry didn't mean to offend. Take care all.

Wait hold on... no offense was taken! (:

 

[Angelina]

Thunderkat where did that come from? :huh: I am not always able to reply straight away due to my work schedule and I'm sorry that you feel somehow slighted in any way because it was certainly not my intention brother....I hope you come back!

Bless ya!

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Angelina, you are a true Berean and I commend you for your study habits. Please allow me to give a few more scriptures for your perusal.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel’s prophecy was to be sealed till the time of the end.

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
God told him that he shall rest (sleep or as we say, dead) and then he would stand with his lot (his kind, Jews that had died under the law) at the end of the days.

Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus tells his disciples they would sit with him and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
John sees in his vision the disciples sitting on the thrones where judgment was given to them. This also comfirms that Christians never die spiritually, just as Jesus had said “He that believeth on me shall never die.”
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrected were the Christians who died before Jesus returned in judgment.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead (Daniel and his kind) would not be raised until the last day.

This reply to a very complex subject is short, but the scripture (I believe) supports what has been presented. Jesus had told his disciples that the last day would be when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed (Mat 24). That happened in 70AD.

In summary, we are living in the age that will never end, the church age, and when we pass from this life we go right on to be with the Lord in heaven.
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

May our Lord continue to bless all believers with more and more of his truth!

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Hello Angelina

Just to add to this.

Here is an interesting scripture to help with those of the OT saints.

Malachi 3:16-17
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels;
and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Hebrews 11 mentions that the faithful came short of the promises when they died.

As far as the OT saints they are and some were in God's book of remembrance(God's - mind)

Until the resurrection as you mention - Matt. 27 = Mal. 3:17 the Jewels - Heb.11:35 the better resurrection

 

[HearGod]

There is a lot of theology out there regarding the matter of what happens when a believer dies.
This is what I believe but you are welcome to contest my thoughts or perhaps you have an opinion of your own - here goes! ;)

...

While there, he accomplished a number of things...Peter says "18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." 1 Peter 3: 18, 19, 20

[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]Angelina[/SIZE] quoted the 'souls" word only 1 time...

I have always thought about this as a topic without much weight. My wife believes in soul sleep and I have heard others say the soul doesn't sleep. I say it doesn't matter at all. If the soul is sleeping then passage of time will be quick and they will wake up not realizing how long they were asleep. If there is no soul sleep then the soul misses nothing. Either way the soul will not know a difference.

[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]Thunderkat [/SIZE]responded mentioning the "soul" word 6 times...

This topic holds much weight for us. Doctrine is of much more importance than the world is currently trying to make it seem like.

Revelation 2:14-15 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Christ had something against His people because they held to the doctrine of Balaam. Christ also made it a point to state that He hated the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Clearly then, there are doctrines we simply cannot hold to. We are thus two examples from the church of Pergamos.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

John warns us not to receive into our house, or bid those God speed who do not believe that Christ Jesus has come in the flesh. This can be denied in more ways than the obvious.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Sound doctrine is important.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Avoiding doctrines of devils is very important. And we are not to be carried away with divers doctrines.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Finally, it is important to note that some worship Christ in vain, because of the doctrines, which are the commandments of men.

I am not sure if [SIZE=11.818181991577148px]Raeneske [/SIZE]was off topic or not....

Well it appears I am not ready for these boards or maybe not meant to be here to begin with. Ok, sorry didn't mean to offend. Take care all.

No worries and fear not, my friend. What is your take on the definition or the Biblical usage/terminology of the word, "soul" ([SIZE=9.5pt]feminine noun [/SIZE]psyche of 1Peter 3:20 originally quoted by [SIZE=11.818181991577148px]Angelina[/SIZE])?

Cheerio!

 

[Xhavon]

The Promise of Christ is "The Resurrection from the dead". This is at Christs return to earth, from heaven. When he raises his saints up into the air of earth to reign with him here for a thousand years. God is Spirit as Christ said. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Heaven is Gods throne where the Spirit of God sits. 49 'Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest?
Those who were of The Spirit of God: Enoch, Elijah, Elisha, Christ and some who have not been reported to man were taken back into the Spirit of God in the sky. They are not walking around like the flesh here on earth nor is heaven a place that the flesh can imagine or that has been accurately reported by those of the flesh. The "kingdom of God", "The kingdom of Heaven" are here on earth. They start in the physical with the thousand year reign of Christ and the first resurrection from the dead at Christ's return.

As far as those who are asleep in Christ this is why it is worded that way in scripture.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
12Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Angelina]

Hey everyone, thanks for your input in this thread...Hi Raen!

1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

There is no possible way that this is the real Samuel. This would mean that through the power of Satan, that woman brought back to the land of the living one who had been dead. But the Bible is very clear that once someone dies, they have nothing to do with us under the sun anymore. Speaking of the dead, Solomon says...

1. Lets begin with the word [gods] used in the KJV. As you know only one rose from the ground and not a group/plural.

1Sa 28:13 And the kingH4428 saidH559 unto her, Be notH408 afraid:H3372 forH3588 whatH4100 sawestH7200 thou? And the womanH802 saidH559 untoH413 Saul,H7586 I sawH7200 godsH430 ascendingH5927 out ofH4480 the earth.H776 (KJV)
The hebrew word being used here is ĕlôhı̂ym - el-o-heem'
H430 - 'ĕlôhı̂ym el-o-heem' Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
H433 ĕlôahh 'ĕlôahh el-o'-ah, el-o'-ah (The second form is rare); probably prolonged (emphatically) from H410; a deity or the deity: - God, god. See H430.
H410 'êl ale: Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in “-el.”

The KJV uses the word "gods' throughout the O/T as a comparison to the God of Israel meaning foreign gods or Idols. I believe that the medium (witch) was referring to a deity foreign to her own beliefs and cultural background

There is no possible way that that was the real Samuel. What the woman saw was a demon, masquerading as Samuel.

2. Do you agree that if this were a demon or Satan that he would not be able to tell the truth? John 8:44

1 Samuel 28
15... And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
16 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

Yet we can see that what was spoken through the prophet Samuel came to pass...

1 Samuel 31
1. Now the Philistines fought against Israel; and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell slain on Mount Gilboa. 2 Then the Philistines followed hard after Saul and his sons. And the Philistines killed Jonathan, Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul’s sons. 3 The battle became fierce against Saul. The archers hit him, and he was severely wounded by the archers.
4 Then Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and abuse me.”
But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. 5 And when his armorbearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword, and died with him. 6 So Saul, his three sons, his armorbearer, and all his men died together that same day.

The word today is the correct word choice, and is the correct understanding of Luke 23. The problem is not in the wording, but in the placement of the comma. Merely the misplacement of the comma causes issues. This you undeniably attest to, because you're trying to figure out how "today" doesn't mean on that very specific day. It does refer to that day, however, with the comma moved to the word after today, it makes much more sense.

It cannot mean today as a specific day otherwise the bible is lying in relation to Jesus spending three days in the heart of the earth. I would rather believe that "today" refers to "from this time forth" as opposed to believing that Jesus was not telling the truth in Matthew 12:40, Matthew 26:61, John 2:19, 21, or his disciples 1 Corinthians 15:3-4...or perhaps we are supposed to ignore such scriptures for the sake of our doctrine? Consider... :huh:
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Hi Rocky!

This reply to a very complex subject is short, but the scripture (I believe) supports what has been presented. Jesus had told his disciples that the last day would be when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed (Mat 24). That happened in 70AD.
In summary, we are living in the age that will never end, the church age, and when we pass from this life we go right on to be with the Lord in heaven.
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
May our Lord continue to bless all believers with more and more of his truth!

Sorry brother I do not believe in Preterism otherwise we would be living in an ideal world right now but as you can see...sin and corruption still exists and believers still have a down payment [deposit] awaiting what is to come 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14.

Jesus needs to appear again and that has not happened yet...

Hebrews 9:28
...so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

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Hi Bible_Gazer, Nice to hear from you again :)
Amen!
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Hello HearGod, welcome to CyB

While there, he accomplished a number of things...Peter says "18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." 1 Peter 3: 18, 19, 20

You emphasized the word "souls" here. I believe that the bible was referring to living people. The Greek word for souls is psuchē

1 Peter 3:20
G5590 souls - psuchē
G5590 From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

The Greek word for spirit is pneuma

1 Peter 3:19
G4151 spirits - pneuma
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

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Greetings Xhavon, Welcome to CyB,

The Promise of Christ is "The Resurrection from the dead"

The promise of Christ is eternal life in Christ - Titus 1:2, John 17:3, John 20:31, Romans 6:23, 1 Timothy 1:16, 1 John 2:25, Jude 1:21,

When he raises his saints up into the air of earth to reign with him here for a thousand years.

Are you speaking of rapture??? I'm not a rapture believer brother because I am becoming more and more convinced that there is not going to be any rapture. I love this quote from Leonard Ravenhill who said: “Today’s church wants to be raptured from responsibility.” J/K

Those who were of The Spirit of God: Enoch, Elijah, Elisha, Christ and some who have not been reported to man were taken back into the Spirit of God in the sky. They are not walking around like the flesh here on earth nor is heaven a place that the flesh can imagine or that has been accurately reported by those of the flesh. The "kingdom of God", "The kingdom of Heaven" are here on earth. They start in the physical with the thousand year reign of Christ and the first resurrection from the dead at Christ's return.

Are you saying that the Messiah was a prophet just like the other prophets of God?

The "kingdom of God", "The kingdom of Heaven" are here on earth. They start in the physical with the thousand year reign of Christ and the first resurrection from the dead at Christ's return.

Christ has already risen from the dead that is why we as believer's are saved. The whole gospel message centers on Christ's death and his resurrection from and dead.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Colossians 2
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

The bible also says in Luke that the Kingdom is within you....21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (KJV)

I think it's says that because the Holy Spirit dwells within the believer and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 8:11

Bless y'all! :)

 

[Xhavon]

Greetings Xhavon, Welcome to CyB,


The promise of Christ is eternal life in Christ - Titus 1:2, John 17:3, John 20:31, Romans 6:23, 1 Timothy 1:16, 1 John 2:25, Jude 1:21,


Are you speaking of rapture??? I'm not a rapture believer brother because I am becoming more and more convinced that there is not going to be any rapture. I love this quote from Leonard Ravenhill who said: “Today’s church wants to be raptured from responsibility.” J/K


Are you saying that the Messiah was a prophet just like the other prophets of God?


Christ has already risen from the dead that is why we as believer's are saved. The whole gospel message centers on Christ's death and his resurrection from and dead.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Colossians 2
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

The bible also says in Luke that the Kingdom is within you....21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (KJV)

I think it's says that because the Holy Spirit dwells within the believer and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 8:11

Bless y'all! :)

Eternal life in Christ of course. Starting for those who sleep in Christ with the resurrection from the dead. Also for those who are alive at His coming to be caught up into the air of earth and changed from fleshly to spiritual.

There is no rapture. The catching up to meet the Lord in the air has nothing to do with a rapture theory or any theory. As far as I can see it is plainly stated in scripture what will happen.

i am "Not" saying that Messiah, the Son of God, God come in the flesh was a prophet.
1 Timothy 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

It was because of what the Lord did, after them, that they were able to be anything in their time.

Christ did not die and go to heaven. He brought Himself back to Life before he ascended into heaven.
Enoch was alive when He was taken as was Elijah and the others.
​No one dies and goes anywhere until they are resurrected from the dead. Even Christ's two Prophets to come will die and be resurrected back to life before they ascend into the Sky.

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

 

[Angelina]

Hi Xhavon,

Eternal life in Christ of course. Starting for those who sleep in Christ with the resurrection from the dead. Also for those who are alive at His coming to be caught up into the air of earth and changed from fleshly to spiritual.

Thanks for clearing that up...I really do not believe that this is what Paul meant when he spoke about those who had fallen asleep. He said that of those who sleep in death, who are Christ's... will return with him because Christ died and rose again. so those who have fallen asleep or died in Christ will return with him. He also goes on to say that those who are still alive when the Lord returns will not precede those who have fallen asleep/died in Christ. So those who are left at his coming will be caught up with those who are with him in the air and live with him forever....I do not believe that those who have died in Christ are in the grave but they will return with him from heaven.

Please note: Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Christ did not die and go to heaven. He brought Himself back to Life before he ascended into heaven.

The bible clearly says that God raised Jesus from the dead. Acts 2:32, Acts 4:10, Acts 5:30, Acts 13:33, Romans 10:9, Galatians 1:1 Although he had the authority to lay his life down and take it up again...John 10:18

Enoch was alive when He was taken as was Elijah and the others.

Yes they were however, if they didn't die...how could they then be resurrected? :huh: Unless of course, Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses?

Even Christ's two Prophets to come will die and be resurrected back to life before they ascend into the Sky.No one dies and goes anywhere until they are resurrected from the dead.

I partly agree with your statement here...you cannot be prosecuted for an offense [in a legal sense] until you go before a court of law. This will happen at the judgment seat of God. 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20: 11, 12, 13, 14, 15

Bless you!

 

[Xhavon]

It says "the dead in Christ will rise first". To me that means that they are dead until they are resurrected back to life. It happens in a moment as the lightning shines from the east to the west. In the twinkling of an eye.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Christ had the Spirit of God so whether we say God resurrected Him back to life or He resurrected himself back to life doesn't matter. I posted the scripture that says Christ was God.
1 Timothy 3
16 ---------------- God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.


Enoch and Elijah and the others will end up being like those who are alive at His coming. They will be translated into a heavenly form and never die.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

IF we read Romans 6 there is a death that is not in the graveyard.
If we be risen in Christ then the old man is dead.
This is consider a first resurrection, the new man.
If we be this as Stephen was when they stoned him to death for
he was risen first into heaven and he will come back with Jesus to get the other saints
that will be caught up to meet him and them in the air.

1thess. 4 is talking to a young church and the people who died before them,
they wonder what will become of them.

 

[Angelina]

Well said Bible_Gazer,

John 14:2
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:42

There are a multitude of believers already in heaven...and more to come.

Revelation 6
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Note that these ones were slain for the word of God and the testimony they held, awaiting the number of their fellow servants and brethren to be killed as they were...had been completed. :huh:

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

These ones come out of the great tribulation.

 

[Xhavon]

IF we read Romans 6 there is a death that is not in the graveyard.
If we be risen in Christ then the old man is dead.
This is consider a first resurrection, the new man.
If we be this as Stephen was when they stoned him to death for
he was risen first into heaven and he will come back with Jesus to get the other saints
that will be caught up to meet him and them in the air.

1thess. 4 is talking to a young church and the people who died before them,
they wonder what will become of them.

Stephen will be resurrected back to life at Christ's return. Along with the twelve apostles Abraham, David, Daniel and so on. Pluss the one hundred and forty four thousand Saints of Christ.
They are coming with Him because it happens in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the Last trumpet. As the Lightning shines from the east to the west. Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The first resurrection was the child that Elijah brought back to life. The second Resurrection was Lazarus who Christ brought back to life.
Luke 20:35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

 

[Angelina]

Stephen will be resurrected back to life at Christ's return. Along with the twelve apostles Abraham, David, Daniel and so on. Pluss the one hundred and forty four thousand Saints of Christ.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are already in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 12
26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 13
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

I think Stephen is alive now not dead, that would defeat the purpose of Christ coming to give
eternal life. This was the great change from to the old(OT) to the new(NT).
Stephen got the heavenly body as Paul talks about in 2Cor.5:1-3.
Jesus came to destroy death of the soul - that is for the believers.

 

[Xhavon]

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are already in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 12
26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Luke 13
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

God has everyone who is worthy written in the palm of his hand. They will surly live again because there is no one who can stop him from resurrecting them back to life. Heaven is Gods Throne. The kingdom of Heaven is a kingdom here on earth ruled by The one sitting on the throne. That kingdom begins when Christ takes up his great power and reigns. After all of the evil of this present world is cleansed by the baptism of fire.

12Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise.
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
rev 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Isaiah 49:15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child, And not have compassion on the son of her womb?
Surely they may forget, Yet I will not forget you.
16 See, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands; Your walls are continually before Me.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."