Attributes of ... THE TWO WITNESSES ... of Rev. 11

[Arnie Manitoba]

Earlier I had felt they were "men" because the 1984 NIV refers to them as "these men" .... but I have found that the new NIV does not use the word "men" ..... nor do any other translations .......

I had always assumed they were men .... but now having second thoughts.

And then there is the verse below that says the can make fire come out of their mouths.

Rev 11:5 ..... If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.

 

[forrestcupp]

Earlier I had felt they were "men" because the 1984 NIV refers to them as "these men" .... but I have found that the new NIV does not use the word "men" ..... nor do any other translations .......

I had always assumed they were men .... but now having second thoughts.

And then there is the verse below that says the can make fire come out of their mouths.

Rev 11:5 ..... If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.

It's pretty wild sounding, isn't it? Though, I think if they were some sort of dragon monster, it doesn't seem like they could be a real witness. I still think they are men with miraculous powers.

Which verse is it in the 1984 NIV that says men? I'd like to see what the Greek texts say.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

It's pretty wild sounding, isn't it? Though, I think if they were some sort of dragon monster, it doesn't seem like they could be a real witness. I still think they are men with miraculous powers.

Which verse is it in the 1984 NIV that says men? I'd like to see what the Greek texts say.

I'm with you on men with miraculous powers.

try look up the Greek and let us know .... it is Rev 11:6
thanks

Here are a few comparison versions .... only one says "men"
NIV 1984 .............. 6 These men have power
NIV ....................... 6 They have power
KJV ...................... 6 These have power
NASB .................. 6 These have the power
YOUNGS ............ 6 These have authority
KNOX ..................6 These two have it in their power

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A couple of other verses that makes me think they are men
Rev 11:10 ........ these two prophets
Rev 11:11 ....... and they stood on their feet

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Maybe related .... Zechariah 4:11-14 .... also mentions two olive trees as "anointed witnesses"
But it also says 2 olive branches
Lampstands are mentioned as well

11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”
12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”
13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?”
“No, my lord,” I said.
14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.”

 

[day]

The prophet Zechariach speaks of two olive trees that stand before God and who's oil drains into the golden lampstand in the temple.
David referred to God's word as a lamp unto his feet and a light unto his path.
Jesus said the scriptures (Old Testament) testified of him and the disciples and other believers were his witnesses (New Testament).

Could the people of the Scriptures, specifically Messianic Jews (Old Testament) and Christian Gentiles (New Testament) be the two witnesses?
Their power is from God, their witness is of the one true God and his Son, Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
The world today is becoming more and more hostile to the presence of these two groups and persecution is increasing around the world. It is the worlds final rejection of God. And just as the stoning of Stephen sealed the Sanhedrin's rejection of Jesus and their authority was taken away and the people scattered, so the world's destruction of Judeo-Christian believers seals its rejection of salvation. God's people are then caught up into heaven and the earth destroyed (7 bowls).

(This would be a type of post-tribulation rapture. No "Left Behind" second chances!)

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Could the people of the Scriptures, specifically Messianic Jews (Old Testament) and Christian Gentiles (New Testament) be the two witnesses?

You are reading my mind. ...... cool ..... !!!!

I had actually contemplated the possibility of the Messianic Jew & Gentile being the two witnesses

I think Arnold Fruchtenbaum mentions that in a book of his I am reading. I will check.

 

[forrestcupp]

try look up the Greek and let us know .... it is Rev 11:6
thanks

Here are a few comparison versions .... only one says "men"
NIV 1984 .............. 6 These men have power
NIV ....................... 6 They have power
KJV ...................... 6 These have power
NASB .................. 6 These have the power
YOUNGS ............ 6 These have authority
KNOX ..................6 These two have it in their power

-----------------------------------------------

A couple of other verses that makes me think they are men
Rev 11:10 ........ these two prophets
Rev 11:11 ....... and they stood on their feet

The Greek word is οὗτοι. It's a masculine word that just means "these" and it's referring to whatever preceded it. It could either be referring to people or things. In context, it's probable that "these men" would be a good translation. I'd say that like you mentioned, verse 10 is a good case for them being men.

And it could be figurative for messianic jews and gentiles, and speaking of a post-trib rapture, but I tend to think it's talking about two men who are prophets. One good case for that is that 1 Cor. 12:29 asks "are all prophets?", so I don't think it's just a general lumping together of all Christians. That's a pretty interesting thought, though.

About the post-trib rapture thing, reading through the end time prophecies almost looks like there will be multiple raptures.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Recently on this forum there have been discussions about Elijah and the two witnesses etc.

Around the world we often have folks claiming to be them

I feel it is correct to assume that the two witnesses will be prophesying in Jerusalem , nowhere else.

Does anyone agree ?

thanks

 

[stefen]

no..! as per Revelation 11:10 looks like whole earth will rejoice for their death. Because they have tormented whole earth when they were preaching. But they will be killed at Jerusalem.

If you say this.. i will agree..!

Thanks

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

stefen ... you made me stop and think for a minute ..... it mentions that the city (jerusalem) will be trodden by the gentiles for 42 months (1260 days)

my mind had played a trick on me and I had assumed it also meant the two witnesses were in the city for that period of time. Thank you.

So in reality the location of the 2 witnesses is only stipulated as ..... “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”

So yes, we are pretty much in agreement ..... and yes I agree they will be killed in Jerusalem ..... as far as how the whole world sees them ..... who knows ..... TV maybe ..... or supernaturally somehow.

As far as tormenting the whole earth ..... I suppose it is by shutting off the rain , creating plagues etc.

 

[stefen]

Yeah..! I agree to that now

The curse mentioned in those verses are like which was happened in Elijah and Moses days..! I am also in the confusion that, one is Elijah (or his spirit) and other is moses or enoch?. I have some valid points for these three. But there must be something which is not known to me too, have to discuss it and clarify.

 

[forrestcupp]

Yeah..! I agree to that now

The curse mentioned in those verses are like which was happened in Elijah and Moses days..! I am also in the confusion that, one is Elijah (or his spirit) and other is moses or enoch?. I have some valid points for these three. But there must be something which is not known to me too, have to discuss it and clarify.

In my opinion, there is more evidence for Moses than Enoch. It's true that Enoch didn't die, and that it's appointed once to die and then the judgment. But then there are the facts that Moses was at the transfiguration, and the Witness's power was to turn water into blood. It just looks more like Moses to me.

My opinion is that the Witnesses will mostly be ministering in Jerusalem, but that it will be such a big deal that the whole world will be watching it on TV. I guess we won't know for sure until it happens. It's fun to think about, though.

 

[stefen]

Dear Bro Forestcupp, are we twins?? Why do u think the same I think?? Anyhow, happy to listen to my mind words..! But here I got this doubt yesterday is that, when Jesus's second coming, we will be transformed and will be taken to heaven, once we hear the trumpet sound. In this sequence, as per the universal law, we should also die, as we born in this earth. But we are also taken into heaven as like Elijah only. How can we explain this?

 

[forrestcupp]

But here I got this doubt yesterday is that, when Jesus's second coming, we will be transformed and will be taken to heaven, once we hear the trumpet sound. In this sequence, as per the universal law, we should also die, as we born in this earth. But we are also taken into heaven as like Elijah only. How can we explain this?

Yeah, I don't really know how to explain that. I guess there have to be exceptions to the Hebrews 9:27 rule.

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

There have to be exceptions in the case of the miraculous, because of all of the people in the Bible who were raised from the dead. They ended up dying twice. So maybe there are exceptions for some people to not die at all. Everyone has an appointment for death, but some people miss their appointment.

 

[stefen]

As Bible says..! We will be transformed (into hidden man) and will be taken up when we hear the trumpet in the second coming of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that, 2 people will be at farm, one will be taken and another will be left. So, in this case, we won't taste death.

Jesus will come again as how he was gone up to heaven. Do Elijah also will come, how he have taken to heaven??

 

[101G]

2 all, GINOLJC

I would like to open up the discussion again.

THE OP
Revelation 11 descriptions of The Two Witnesses ......

I believe the two witness are John the Baptist,(Elijah), and Jesus the Christ, (Moses)

We are told the length of time .... they will prophesy for 1,260 days
TRUE, 3 and 1/2 years, the time of their PUBLIC MINISTRY. John and Jesus public ministry was 3 1/2 years.

They are in Jerusalem ...... 2 They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
a. TRUE. b.?

We are told what they will wear ..... clothed in sackcloth
TRUE, but not physical clothing, but spiritual clothing, as the saints are dressed in righteousness. which is their works, or deeds. so shall it be their work in sackcloth, which is their prophetic testimony. "REPENT" for the kingdom is at hand. Matthew 3:1 " In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". did our Lord preach the same message?. Matthew 4:14 "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

again John and Jesus.
They are chosen ...... 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses
Appoint is to anoint. both John and Jesus was anoint with the Holy Oil, (which is the Holy Spirit, God himself)

They have great power ...... 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
Power here is authority. we should know our Lord's authority. but what about John's authority, both in the same verses of scriptures. Matthew 21:23 "And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?. 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

they Both have the authority from the same source to do what they was doing, the ETERNAL SPIRIT, GOD.

Now, lets clearly see John's Power, or authority Luke 1:11 "And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

again, John and Jesus

They are prophets ...... these two prophets
TRUE, John as a PROPHET: Matthew 21:26 "But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet". Luke 7:28 "For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he".

Jesus as a Prophet: Matthew 21:9 "And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. 10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? 11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee". Acts 7:37 "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear".

again John and Jesus.
They are men ......
No brainier here

Also described as lampstands and trees .... 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Both, John and Jesus are lampstands. and lampstand signify, "LIGHT" first, Jesus, as LIGHT, John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life".

Now John: John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

again John and Jesus as LIGHTS, or LAMPSTANDS


They cannot be harmed while they testify .... 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.
FIRE: Jeremiah 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them". Jeremiah 23:28 "The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD".

Then will be killed and raised up again ..... 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet,
Killed physically. but their bodies?. "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves". the answer is spiritual, as well as the question is. one don't bury living men, only dead ones. what do I mean. John and Jesus was the only living men in Jerusalem at that time. because they was the only ones "BORN WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEM". they was born, or come into this world ALIVE TO THE LIVING ONE. and because of, "sin in the world", their bodies are dead to the world. what do I mean. teach by example, Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness". by sin being in the world, and not in the flesh, their bodies was "DEAD TO THE WORLD BECAUSE OF SIN IN THE WORLD". Jesus had not condemn sin in the flesh as of yet. and because the Spirit was in them they was alive to God, the Eternal Spirit, because he was in them. but their flesh bodies was dead to the world because of sin in the world. can this be supported by scripture, YES. a disciples wanted to follow Jesus, but he wanted to do something first. lets pick up the story. Matthew 8:18 "Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side. 19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead". now we can understand this statement Jesus made, "let the dead bury their dead". because all men was dead in the world because of sin, which sin was in the world. only John and Jesus was "ALIVE" in the world. but their bodies DEAD to the world because of SIN in the WORLD. hence their "dead" bodies was seen for 3 1/2 days which signify the 3 1/2 years of their "PUBLIC MINISTRY". Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?". 2 Corinthians 4:10 "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh".

as I said one don't bury ALIVE MEN, and when physically dead, they was not buried. yes they was raised again, we know of our Lord resurrection. what of the resurrection outside, and after our Lord?. Matthew 27:50 " Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many".

It appears the people will hate them ...... 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
Matthew 28:11 "Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. 12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, 13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. 14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. 15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day".

Except for here ....... 13 ... and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Matthew 28:16 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted".

so lets compare John the Baptist,(Elijah), and Jesus the Christ, (Moses), again in new LIGHT.

be blessed.