Well Ive been banned from yet another Christian site.Here was the last straw,just want some opinions,was I wrong?The topic is satan and sinHere's how it wentn2thelight Did God know that satan would sin?My answer is that He did'nt what do you all thinkAlso do you all think that He knows who all will be saved?My answer to this is also no,any thoughts? Sosthenes Your argument denies that God is all omnicient.Satan is a cherub and doesn't know all things but he had access to heaven, conversations that he may have been privy to and maybe books that he may have been privy to. n2thelight Im not trying to deny God of anything,let me explainFirst I don't feel had He know He would have created satan in the first place,because had satan not sinned we never would have been made flesh.To the second part if He knows who will be saved,then this flesh age would not be necessary,for He could just put them all in the lake of fire now.SosthenesCare to explain a difficult verse like:Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].n2thelight Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."This verse has been badly translated from the Hebrew text. Lets take a close look at two words here, the words "create", and "evil". The verb "create" or "bara" in the Hebrew requires the rendering "to bring about". This word has to be determined in the context of it's use. The word "evil" is never rendered "sin", but "calamity". God brings calamity into our lives as the inevitable consequences of the sin that is committed. God is saying that if you chose to bring sin in your life, you can count on the calamity that will follow. God has not created the sin, or evil, but God has created the individuals that have turned to evil. Then when you get out of line, God provides the distress within your life to show you that you are out of line, and by that calamity you know it is time to repent and get back into line. If you are a child of God, you will pick up on those times when you are out of the will of God, and see the distress for what it is and thank Him for it. You will get back to where you should be, and then God will straighten you path and break down those bars and gates that are in your way. However it is all up to you. Truth_Sets_FreeThe bible isn't the book of angels, Genesis 5:1 says "this is the book of the generations of Adam", not the book of botany(plant life), not to mention studies of creations in other dimensions & worlds. Therefore it makes little difference right now in debating the logic behind satan's decision.Since we have no written law on the laws of angels we have no way to know he actually sinned. ("Where there is no law there is no sin" Rom 4:15) In this biblical definition Satan couldn't sin if he tried. We know he fell, but we dont know how much of God's plan that was. Satan still to this day only does what God allows him, we know that much. One thing for sure is God is making KINGS & PRIESTS for the NEXT AGE, to RULE and REIGN with HIM "ON HIS FATHER'S THRONE" IF WE "OVERCOME". So there must be Kingdoms & potential evil to conquer in all the universes, but only in this one do we have any "sons of God", those made in the very image of the creator of the universes. Only we out of all the many creations have fallen so far that we cannot see regular angels, except sometimes for a few moments when they materialize.In General:If both end up in the same outcome I see little worth in arguing over which side of the coin on this one is facing up at the moment. It is the same coin. One guy argues one thing that it says in one verse, but both seem to be so passionate for the same outcome in knowing it. There's probably a little of both, just some blow up one doctrine more than the other. One thing that can be very counter productive is when people have pet doctrines they spend all their time squabbling over such as which color did they paint Noah's ark.n2thelight Hello Truthsatan's sin was wanting to take over the throne of God,but I feel the worst was the fact that he convinced some of God's children to join him in that attempt,God could have destroyed satan right then and there but the same fate would have befallen those who followed him.This is the reason why we were made flesh with no remembrance of that time,to choose who we would follow,God or satan.As I have said I feel had satan not sinned we would not have been made flesh.satan's fall is written of in EzekielEzekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." As you can see satan was created perfect,he chose to become evilEzekiel 28:16 "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire." This was at a time before man was made fleshEzekiel 28:17 "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of the brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. This is why satan is also known as the son of perdition,which means one who will perish,he is the only one by name already sentenced to death.Truth_Sets_Free I doubt satan had a choice. Even with Man we know
ro 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."Pro 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."So even if our own heart isn't the way God would have us, still God will direct our steps.God works in us to DO His Good Pleasurehl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.I know there are different realms, different laws that govern those realms, that we will only know about in such verses you quoted but not know all the rules until we get our glorified bodies and are in all the HEAVEN(S) plural. Shamayim is the word for heaven used every time in the bible and it is PLURAL. Paul said he went to the "third heaven". Moses made the 3 compartments of the tabernacle "after the pattern of the heavens". That's the higher heavens, when I also know there are lower heavens. In Psalms it talks about the heavens of the heavens, and in Isaiah that his train fills the heavens of the heavens. So within one heaven there could be dozens more heavens.Anyhow, all-in-all this subject of satan's psyche and the laws governing the devil makes no difference in the end. The bible says the devil has to ask God for permission before he does anything. We also know he's just another angel doing work for getting God's people to be overcommers. Well they need something to overcome. I think some enlightenment can be gained on the mistake the devil made, wanting to live outside of God's will when he said he coveted & strived to be like the stars (sons of God) and had pride. I think anyone can take any of the verses dealing with the nature of satan and say we dont want to be like him. I would also say ya you dont want to be like those Pharisees where in John 8:44 Jesus said they were not only the seedline of the serpent dragon, (matt 23:33, Luke 3:7, etc etc) but also were "of their father the devil, he was a murderer from the beginning (speaking of the seedline of cain who first slew innocent able , and then Jesus indicted the pharisee's ancestors with all the righteous blood shed upon the face of the earth, including killing all the prophets(Matthew 23:35, Paul also reiterated this.1Th 2:15 "Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:" The only thing we can glean of this perhaps is there are powers in high places that Jesus said are in league with the devil on this earth. Yet this will never have any more power than Jesus will allow and we have the victory.Given Yes. God is all that is good. Satan is all that is evil. God's goodness could not be known to men without something they could compare it with and see the difference. In order for God's goodness to be manifest there had to be evil.God created Satan in perfection, giving him wisdom and a position of power but also knowing that in time Satan's mind would lead him on a quest to become greater than God and when that moment came, Satan became evil and all that he did was evil because evil can do no good thing.Since God is all that is good and good can do no evil, God now had a being who was evil but yet under His control. Satan could do the things God needed done but, being good, could not do them Himself.For example, God can not tempt a man to do evil and oppose His will.You may wonder why God would do this thing but when you consider that the only thing God wants from man is a people who will love Him because they want to love Him and not because He requires them to love Him. He wants a people He can call His own People. He wants people who have chosen Him over anything or anyone else and so, Satan came to be. Satan 's purpose is to glean from the sea of humanity that group of people God wants to call His own people. Then, in the end, with it's purpose fulfilled, evil must be destroyed. Of course, God knows those who will choose Him but He does not direct them to do so and the choice is theirs to maken2thelight Here is my positionWe all have free will even satan had free will.I don't think God needed evil to show His goodnessWe were all very happy when we were created,and Im talking abot a time before we were made flesh.So my bottom line is had satan not sinned we would not have been made fleshGiven God didn't need evil to show His goodness, men needed evil to see God's goodness. Dave Good answer GivenAmenn2thelightsatan became evil before man was made fleshGiven Did God make all of the things we needed before He made us or after ?This is my answer to that last question and why I got bannedQuote from: n2thelight on Yesterday at 10:44:51 PMI would say after,because as you can see in Job,we were with Him when He creared the earthJob 38 1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? ReplyI can't see where this is proving anything of us being here when God Created the Earth, evidently you don't believe Genesis on Creation. I have had it with your theology that goes against the scriptures. All you have managed to do is confuse people with your teachings which is not allowed on my board.QuoteAnd I would like to add,that God did not craete the earth void and without form,He created it perfectIn Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."ReplyTo be inhabited not inhabited all in one motion.QuoteAfter satan rebelled God destroyed the earth,all souls went back to Heaven to be born of woman in the fleshReplyAgain you must not believe Genesis this is hogwashQuoteWe were not in flesh bodies when God created the earth for us to dwell on.ReplyNothing in the bible about this all speculationQuoteWhen you look at a globe, can you not see how all the continents fit together like a puzzle?ReplyThis can be accounted for by the floodQuoteWhen He destroyed the earth they broke apart as they are now,that is also the time that the dinosaurs became extinct,which was millions of years ago.ReplySo you have smeared our belief with your heresy for the last time you will not be able to reply back to this in fact I think I will take out your posting privileges. You have read my articles of faith this is what we will abide by, I will not stand here and let you spread your heresys all over my board.May the holy spirit open your eyes so you can get away from the false doctrine you seem to follow.Good byeDaveNow my question is this,did I not present my position in a respectful manner?
ro 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."Pro 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."So even if our own heart isn't the way God would have us, still God will direct our steps.God works in us to DO His Good Pleasurehl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.I know there are different realms, different laws that govern those realms, that we will only know about in such verses you quoted but not know all the rules until we get our glorified bodies and are in all the HEAVEN(S) plural. Shamayim is the word for heaven used every time in the bible and it is PLURAL. Paul said he went to the "third heaven". Moses made the 3 compartments of the tabernacle "after the pattern of the heavens". That's the higher heavens, when I also know there are lower heavens. In Psalms it talks about the heavens of the heavens, and in Isaiah that his train fills the heavens of the heavens. So within one heaven there could be dozens more heavens.Anyhow, all-in-all this subject of satan's psyche and the laws governing the devil makes no difference in the end. The bible says the devil has to ask God for permission before he does anything. We also know he's just another angel doing work for getting God's people to be overcommers. Well they need something to overcome. I think some enlightenment can be gained on the mistake the devil made, wanting to live outside of God's will when he said he coveted & strived to be like the stars (sons of God) and had pride. I think anyone can take any of the verses dealing with the nature of satan and say we dont want to be like him. I would also say ya you dont want to be like those Pharisees where in John 8:44 Jesus said they were not only the seedline of the serpent dragon, (matt 23:33, Luke 3:7, etc etc) but also were "of their father the devil, he was a murderer from the beginning (speaking of the seedline of cain who first slew innocent able , and then Jesus indicted the pharisee's ancestors with all the righteous blood shed upon the face of the earth, including killing all the prophets(Matthew 23:35, Paul also reiterated this.1Th 2:15 "Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:" The only thing we can glean of this perhaps is there are powers in high places that Jesus said are in league with the devil on this earth. Yet this will never have any more power than Jesus will allow and we have the victory.Given Yes. God is all that is good. Satan is all that is evil. God's goodness could not be known to men without something they could compare it with and see the difference. In order for God's goodness to be manifest there had to be evil.God created Satan in perfection, giving him wisdom and a position of power but also knowing that in time Satan's mind would lead him on a quest to become greater than God and when that moment came, Satan became evil and all that he did was evil because evil can do no good thing.Since God is all that is good and good can do no evil, God now had a being who was evil but yet under His control. Satan could do the things God needed done but, being good, could not do them Himself.For example, God can not tempt a man to do evil and oppose His will.You may wonder why God would do this thing but when you consider that the only thing God wants from man is a people who will love Him because they want to love Him and not because He requires them to love Him. He wants a people He can call His own People. He wants people who have chosen Him over anything or anyone else and so, Satan came to be. Satan 's purpose is to glean from the sea of humanity that group of people God wants to call His own people. Then, in the end, with it's purpose fulfilled, evil must be destroyed. Of course, God knows those who will choose Him but He does not direct them to do so and the choice is theirs to maken2thelight Here is my positionWe all have free will even satan had free will.I don't think God needed evil to show His goodnessWe were all very happy when we were created,and Im talking abot a time before we were made flesh.So my bottom line is had satan not sinned we would not have been made fleshGiven God didn't need evil to show His goodness, men needed evil to see God's goodness. Dave Good answer GivenAmenn2thelightsatan became evil before man was made fleshGiven Did God make all of the things we needed before He made us or after ?This is my answer to that last question and why I got bannedQuote from: n2thelight on Yesterday at 10:44:51 PMI would say after,because as you can see in Job,we were with Him when He creared the earthJob 38 1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? ReplyI can't see where this is proving anything of us being here when God Created the Earth, evidently you don't believe Genesis on Creation. I have had it with your theology that goes against the scriptures. All you have managed to do is confuse people with your teachings which is not allowed on my board.QuoteAnd I would like to add,that God did not craete the earth void and without form,He created it perfectIn Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."ReplyTo be inhabited not inhabited all in one motion.QuoteAfter satan rebelled God destroyed the earth,all souls went back to Heaven to be born of woman in the fleshReplyAgain you must not believe Genesis this is hogwashQuoteWe were not in flesh bodies when God created the earth for us to dwell on.ReplyNothing in the bible about this all speculationQuoteWhen you look at a globe, can you not see how all the continents fit together like a puzzle?ReplyThis can be accounted for by the floodQuoteWhen He destroyed the earth they broke apart as they are now,that is also the time that the dinosaurs became extinct,which was millions of years ago.ReplySo you have smeared our belief with your heresy for the last time you will not be able to reply back to this in fact I think I will take out your posting privileges. You have read my articles of faith this is what we will abide by, I will not stand here and let you spread your heresys all over my board.May the holy spirit open your eyes so you can get away from the false doctrine you seem to follow.Good byeDaveNow my question is this,did I not present my position in a respectful manner?
