Baptism in water vs Baptism in Holy Spirit

[dragonfly]

Hi Alan,

Jesus would have know Peter couldn't love with Agape if he wasn't born again

And Jesus did know that Peter couldn't yet love with 'Agape', because he wasn't born again, yet.

What's more, Peter knew that Peter couldn't yet love with 'Agape', and that's why he answered honestly, naming every time the only kind of love which he did have - philo.

Third time: 'And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love [philo] thee.

I don't think Jesus was 'playing games'. But, He was helping Peter again to understand his limitations, and that human affection, such as had made Peter offer to die for the Lord, and claim that he would never deny Him, didn't cut the necessary ice. All the disciples were in the same boat as Peter. Matthew 26:35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Do you think Peter had forgotten everything he'd ever learned from being with Jesus? I don't think he would have said 'thou knowest all things', if he still thought the Lord might have overlooked something, or, was judging unrighteously.



If your theory is correct, why didn't Peter reply using the word 'Agape', (as in earlier posts you suggested he had)?


Another question: if Peter had been born again in John 20, why was he going fishing in John 21:3?

 

[Alanforchrist]

Hi Alan,




And Jesus did know that Peter couldn't yet love with 'Agape', because he wasn't born again, yet.

What's more, Peter knew that Peter couldn't yet love with 'Agape', and that's why he answered honestly, naming every time the only kind of love which he did have - philo.

Third time: 'And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love [philo] thee.

I don't think Jesus was 'playing games'. But, He was helping Peter again to understand his limitations, and that human affection, such as had made Peter offer to die for the Lord, and claim that he would never deny Him, didn't cut the necessary ice. All the disciples were in the same boat as Peter. Matthew 26:35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Do you think Peter had forgotten everything he'd ever learned from being with Jesus? I don't think he would have said 'thou knowest all things', if he still thought the Lord might have overlooked something, or, was judging unrighteously.



If your theory is correct, why didn't Peter reply using the word 'Agape', (as in earlier posts you suggested he had)?


Another question: if Peter had been born again in John 20, why was he going fishing in John 21:3?

[1]Peter WAS born again in Jn 20: 22. When Jesus breathed the Spirit into him.

[2]You obviously think Jesus was playing games when He asked Peter, "Do you Agape" me.

[3]The disciples never knew about the agape love of God, It was a new word the Greeks had to make up to seperate the love of God from other loves, Thats why Peter never knew, or said he loved Jesus with the agape love.


[4]You put a lot of your pwn opinions in DON'Y YOU??.

 

[dragonfly]

Thanks Alan, I have no further comments to make. The Lord bless you.

 

[Alanforchrist]

Thanks Alan, I have no further comments to make. The Lord bless you.

Hi dragonfly,
God bless you.

 

[logabe]

Paul was speaking to the whole Corinth church in 1st Cor. 14. He was
judging them for the way they were holding services, because he was
the apostle (judge) of the gentile churches.

They were getting up and speaking with tongues... because they had the
Holy Ghost, but that doesn't mean you have the gift of tongues. Paul was
telling them to be silent in the church if they don't have that gift, because
it was causing confusion and the people coming in thought they were out
of their mind or mad as he referred to it.

In essense, Paul wanted order in the Corinth church so everyone could
benefit in understanding the mind of the Spirit. He was teaching them the
proper way to use this gift.

But the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking with tongues is different
than using the gift of tongues in a service. How? 1st Cor. 14:14-15 says,

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my
mind is unfruitful.
15 What is the outcome then ? I will pray with the
spirit and I will pray with the mind also ; I will sing
with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Paul is getting specfic and explaining how in worship this will edify you, but
it doesn't do much to the unbeliever because he or she hasn't been born of
the Spirit and it will become uncomfortable for the person that hasn't been
in that type of environment.

My question is... how can a person that is born of the Spirit pray in a tongue
or sing in a tongue, if he or she doesn't ever speak in tongues? Another
question is... in Acts 8:15-17, Philip had just baptised the people in Samaria,
but none of them had received the Holy Ghost. How did he know they hadn't
received it yet?

15 who came down and prayed for them that they
might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they
had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord
Jesus.
17 Then they began laying their hands on them,
and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't say what actually happened , but we do know something strange
was going on, because the next verse says Simon saw that the laying on of
hands produced the Holy Ghost and he wanted to pay for it. Well, the only
way we can verify truth is by looking @ other scriptures and see if we can
find what actually happened with the laying on of hands. Acts 19:5 says,

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in
the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them,
the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began
speaking with tongues and prophesying.

After they were born of water, Paul laid hands on them and they were born
of the Spirit. How did he know they were born of the Spirit? He heard them
speak with tongues and prophesy. Why did they have to speak with tongues?
Paul had already spoke to them about Jesus in their own tongue. Because that
is what happened when Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritians and
Simon wanted to buy the Holy Ghost. They spake with tongues and they were
excited about what God had just done for them.

When I received the Holy Ghost... I was scared at first , but when God spoke
to me and confirmed what He had just done, I began to speak with tongues &
prophesy and I was very excited.

When God baptises you in the Holy Ghost, you will speak in a different tongue,
but it will be to edify you. Jude said, building up your most Holy Faith, praying
in the Holy Ghost. But in a church... if you don't have an interpreter and God
gives you a tongue without the interpretation you should keep your peace and
order should be preserved in the service.

When Paul was teaching them about speaking in tongues correctly, he referred
them to Isa. 28:11-12,

11 Indeed, He will speak to this people Through
stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
12 He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest
to the weary," And, "Here is repose," but they
would not listen.

If we read John 14:26, Jesus tells us the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, it
will teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance, whatsoever He
has said to us. That is the purpose of the Holy Ghost, not speaking in tongues,
although you will, but the soul purpose is to understand the report. Isa. 28:9
says,

9 "To whom would He teach knowledge, And to
whom would He interpret the message ? Those
just weaned from milk ? Those just taken from
the breast ?

If God hasn't given you a prayer language... just ask and you will receive. Isn't
that what Jesus said? The Holy Ghost is fantastic!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Ah, I guess this is what I wanted to know. Yes, Jesus is my Savior and Lord, so I was a bit confused about this whole subject. The baptism in Holy Spirit seems to be very controversial. I attend a Baptist church, and they believe you're already baptized in Holy Spirit when accepting Jesus.

But then what are the gifts of the Holy Spirit? What does it mean "Baptized with Holy Spirit and the fire"?

Hi Shy,

When one first comes to the Lord they are very interested in how they can please the Lord. This is natural and also helps you learn about God. We don't need to go into detail but there is a difference in 'gift' (singular) and 'gifts' (plural).

Gift - Gift of God is eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
According to scripture one is given this gift when they have been born again of the water and the Spirit. Jesus told Nicodemius that he must be born again or he could not enter into the kingdom of God.
Baptizm in water and the Holy Ghost;
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Gifts - Gifts are given to the members of the church for their edification.
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Your hunger for God is a great help. Be patient and pray. If you haven't already found out, God is going to direct your path.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Shy, do you recall the account of the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist?

John 1:32-33

Elsewhere, it says that Jesus submitted to baptism to fulfill all righteousness. Water baptism is an outward sign of the interior, yes. Many from the Pentecostal tradition, and even the precursor Wesleyan tradition (John Wesley remains one of my top extra-Biblical reading choices for his passion) will say that Spirit baptism is something special that you have to work towards. They base it on passages like the one from Acts 8:14-17.

I think there is a mistaken assumption that it takes the right person to lay hands on someone to baptize in the Spirit. This passage was less of a reference to a required act so much as it was a response to the command that Jesus issued - that which we call the Great Commission. In the case of Jesus, the Holy Spirit descended at his baptism.

In Acts 10:44-48, the Holy Spirit baptism occurred when the people first heard the Word of God preached by Peter.

So, we have multiple accounts of it happening at differing times. Also note that there is no specific pattern, other than it occurs for believers. It may occur when they first hear the gospel proclaimed, but then it may take some time and may precede or follow water baptism.

I think the message in all of this is that it's not in response to our own works - be it sanctification or a certain "Holy mind" for lack of a better term. It occurs as God determines it should occur. I do not see a pattern of preparing ourselves for anything.

There's no extra work of the spirit other than being saved. These scriptures you refer to are historical and such actions were required at the commencement of the church to usher in and confirm the change in the covenant to all who believe. These were exceptions not the rule.

In Fact were were baptized into christ at the point of salvation, this in effect is the baptism of the spirit there's no other. As you rightly stated, water baptism is an expression of our salvation in Christ before the world.

[1]Peter WAS born again in Jn 20: 22. When Jesus breathed the Spirit into him.

[2]You obviously think Jesus was playing games when He asked Peter, "Do you Agape" me.

[3]The disciples never knew about the agape love of God, It was a new word the Greeks had to make up to seperate the love of God from other loves, Thats why Peter never knew, or said he loved Jesus with the agape love.


[4]You put a lot of your pwn opinions in DON'Y YOU??.

[1]Peter WAS born again in Jn 20: 22. When Jesus breathed the Spirit into him.

[2]You obviously think Jesus was playing games when He asked Peter, "Do you Agape" me.

[3]The disciples never knew about the agape love of God, It was a new word the Greeks had to make up to seperate the love of God from other loves, Thats why Peter never knew, or said he loved Jesus with the agape love.


[4]You put a lot of your pwn opinions in DON'Y YOU??.

Again, Agape is NO special love. It's not a God given love that ONLY christians have, anyone and everyone exercise's this at some point.