"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[amigo de christo]

You do not get to police when or how I engage. This is a public forum and I will address doctrinal error when it comes up. Scripture commands us to correct when God’s words are being redefined, not sit quietly for the sake of comfort ~Titus 1:9; ~2 Timothy 4:2.

Calling others “rants” is a cheap insult that sidesteps the actual content of the message. If your position is biblical, then engage Scripture, not attack tone ~Titus 3:2. Quotes don’t bow to other quotes. Scripture itself says there are some “who wrest the scriptures” to make them say what they want them to say ~2 Peter 3:16. Just because someone is skilled at twisting Scripture does not mean the rest of us have to listen. I will not.

Now let’s move on to the actual issue at hand. Your statement that “He shall become what or who He shall become” is not what God said. God said, “I AM THAT I AM,” then immediately rooted His name as unchanging: “This is my name for ever” ~Exodus 3:14–15. A name whose definition is never-ending becoming is not a name “for ever.”

Malachi 3:6 does not fit your framework. It refutes it. God says plainly, “I the LORD change not” ~Malachi 3:6. Scripture does not define God by an unchanging essence on one hand, then re-define His name as an ever-evolving concept on the other. That division is forced on the text, it is not drawn from it.

Scripture is also clear that false teachers are not to be welcomed or accommodated. We are commanded to mark them and expose them, not make room for them. “Beware of false prophets” ~Matthew 7:15. “There shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies” ~2 Peter 2:1. When someone remolds who God is, and denies the biblical identity of the Son, then that is crossing over into the realm of false teaching. That is a description that fits what you are teaching.

Jesus Himself said, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures” ~Matthew 22:29. The problem is not vocabulary or confidence, it is submission to what God has actually said. “Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God” ~1 John 4:1.

Understand this clearly. I will respond and post as I see fit. Scripture stands on its own. God has spoken, and I will not contort His words to make them agree with a system, a tradition, or a personal preference.

that is all they have my friend . cause doctrine THEY DO NOT HAVE .
its all emotions , its all tone it down , its all accusations they have . cause as i just wrote , ITS ALL THEY HAVE .
THEY have NOT the scriptures . For the scriptures EXPOSE THEM . they have only the victim card and that card
as will their house of cards come DOWN on the day of the LORD . FLOOD this place and flood it well
with all scriptures .

 

[amigo de christo]

At this point the issue is not evidence. It is authority.

You have been shown what the text actually says. From here there are only two paths. You either submit to what God has spoken, or you reshape His words to fit a framework you prefer. Scripture is clear that doing the latter is not harmless interpretation, it is self-idolatry.

God warns plainly, “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it” ~Deuteronomy 4:2. When someone takes God’s self-declaration and recasts it into a concept Scripture never states, that is adding. When God says “I AM” and a man insists “He really means something else,” that man has placed his reasoning above God’s voice.

The Bible does not allow us to reinvent God under the banner of study, history, or sincerity. “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man” ~Romans 1:22–23. That image does not have to be a statue. It can be an idea, a system, or a preferred explanation that replaces what God actually said.

Scripture gives the line in the sand. “Choose you this day whom ye will serve” ~Joshua 24:15. Either the God who speaks for Himself in His Word, or a god shaped by human reasoning. Both cannot rule at the same time.

You can submit to Scripture and stand with God, or you can reject it and stand against Him. God will not redefine Himself to make the second option safe.

There is only one god who would ever redefine GOD . And that ol serpent is not THE ONE the sheep do heed .
FLOOD th is place .
FLOOD it full with all scriptural reminders .

 

[amigo de christo]

At this point the issue is not evidence. It is authority.

You have been shown what the text actually says. From here there are only two paths. You either submit to what God has spoken, or you reshape His words to fit a framework you prefer. Scripture is clear that doing the latter is not harmless interpretation, it is self-idolatry.

God warns plainly, “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it” ~Deuteronomy 4:2. When someone takes God’s self-declaration and recasts it into a concept Scripture never states, that is adding. When God says “I AM” and a man insists “He really means something else,” that man has placed his reasoning above God’s voice.

The Bible does not allow us to reinvent God under the banner of study, history, or sincerity. “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man” ~Romans 1:22–23. That image does not have to be a statue. It can be an idea, a system, or a preferred explanation that replaces what God actually said.

Scripture gives the line in the sand. “Choose you this day whom ye will serve” ~Joshua 24:15. Either the God who speaks for Himself in His Word, or a god shaped by human reasoning. Both cannot rule at the same time.

You can submit to Scripture and stand with God, or you can reject it and stand against Him. God will not redefine Himself to make the second option safe.

have ya noticed that many do not like HIS WORDS and had rather sit under
another god who is always in the business of pleasing man .
that ol serpent has not been sleeping . he and his massive amount of co workers
have been real busy preaching to man that which pleases the f lesh of man .

 

[JustMe]

You do not get to police when or how I engage. This is a public forum and I will address doctrinal error when it comes up. Scripture commands us to correct when God’s words are being redefined, not sit quietly for the sake of comfort ~Titus 1:9; ~2 Timothy 4:2.

Calling others “rants” is a cheap insult that sidesteps the actual content of the message. If your position is biblical, then engage Scripture, not attack tone ~Titus 3:2. Quotes don’t bow to other quotes. Scripture itself says there are some “who wrest the scriptures” to make them say what they want them to say ~2 Peter 3:16. Just because someone is skilled at twisting Scripture does not mean the rest of us have to listen. I will not.

Now let’s move on to the actual issue at hand. Your statement that “He shall become what or who He shall become” is not what God said. God said, “I AM THAT I AM,” then immediately rooted His name as unchanging: “This is my name for ever” ~Exodus 3:14–15. A name whose definition is never-ending becoming is not a name “for ever.”

Malachi 3:6 does not fit your framework. It refutes it. God says plainly, “I the LORD change not” ~Malachi 3:6. Scripture does not define God by an unchanging essence on one hand, then re-define His name as an ever-evolving concept on the other. That division is forced on the text, it is not drawn from it.

Scripture is also clear that false teachers are not to be welcomed or accommodated. We are commanded to mark them and expose them, not make room for them. “Beware of false prophets” ~Matthew 7:15. “There shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies” ~2 Peter 2:1. When someone remolds who God is, and denies the biblical identity of the Son, then that is crossing over into the realm of false teaching. That is a description that fits what you are teaching.

Jesus Himself said, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures” ~Matthew 22:29. The problem is not vocabulary or confidence, it is submission to what God has actually said. “Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God” ~1 John 4:1.

Understand this clearly. I will respond and post as I see fit. Scripture stands on its own. God has spoken, and I will not contort His words to make them agree with a system, a tradition, or a personal preference.

Well great then David, I hope you don't do in the future as you have done up to now: as you said; "Scripture stands on its own. God has spoken, and I will not contort His words to make them agree with a system, a tradition, or a personal preference."

And just make sure it is God that has spoken and you have not confused it with yourself, and your own words.

Have a decent day and great holiday season.

 

[JustMe]

There is only one god who would ever redefine GOD . And that ol serpent is not THE ONE the sheep do heed .
FLOOD th is place .
FLOOD it full with all scriptural reminders .

Do you really know who is your one true, singular person, cardinal one God.? And it isn't his Son, either!

 

[JustMe]

have ya noticed that many do not like HIS WORDS and had rather sit under
another god who is always in the business of pleasing man .
that ol serpent has not been sleeping . he and his massive amount of co workers
have been real busy preaching to man that which pleases the f lesh of man .

Please stop with the childish idle talk. I wager you are the one that ignores much scripture over your god, created by men and their sayings.

When confronted with these scriptures below do you turn you head away and run, or truthfully acknowledge that Yeshua has a God already, with gladness and joy?

John 20:17, after His resurrection, Yeshua says to Mary Magdalene, “I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God”. This statement clearly identifies God as Yeshua’s Father who is the only one God. Do you deny this (y/n)?

Matthew 16:16-17, Peter confesses, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” and Jesus responds, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven”. Here, Yeshua acknowledges the Father as the source of revelation. Do you deny this fact that Yeshua has a God and he is his Father. (y/n)?

1 Corinthians 15:24-28, Paul writes about the end times, stating that “the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all”. Do you deny this fact that Yeshua has a God and he is his Father. (y/n)?

Now this is the type of flooding that's required from your post #65, the truth in scripture. Not the deliberate skewed and rigged scripture interpretation meant to deceive, that conforms to your man-made god and idol.

 

[bdavidc]

Well great then David, I hope you don't do in the future as you have done up to now: as you said; "Scripture stands on its own. God has spoken, and I will not contort His words to make them agree with a system, a tradition, or a personal preference."

And just make sure it is God that has spoken and you have not confused it with yourself, and your own words.

The issue is not that I’m turning God’s words into my own. The issue is that you are turning God’s words into what you want it to say.

I haven’t brought in scholars, traditions, philosophies, or private systems like you have. I’ve quoted Scripture plainly and let Scripture interpret Scripture ~1 Corinthians 4:6. But you, you keep redefining plain texts so they will fit your conclusions. That is not careful reading. That is twisting.

The Bible is not unclear about this. “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” ~2 Peter 1:20. When someone takes what God has plainly said and twists it into something else, that is private interpretation, no matter how confident it sounds.

Scripture even tells us why this keeps happening. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” ~1 Corinthians 2:14. When truth is rejected, the text gets bent to make rejection feel justified.

If someone is actually willing to read what Scripture says in context, the truth is there. God did not stutter. He did not leave His identity vague. He did not ask us to fix His words. But Scripture also says that those who refuse the truth will “wrest the scriptures” to suit themselves ~2 Peter 3:16.

So no, this is not me inserting myself into the text. This is me refusing to edit God so His Word will agree with man. Scripture stands on its own. God has already spoken. And I will continue to say exactly what the Bible says, whether it is accepted or not.

 

[bdavidc]

When confronted with these scriptures below do you turn you head away and run, or truthfully acknowledge that Yeshua has a God already, with gladness and joy?

You shout about childish talk, but your voice drips with accusation and contempt. Scripture calls that. “Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be” ~James 3:10. That is not zeal for truth. It is venom.

Now, to your verses. None of them prove what you want. All of them show how you misapply Scripture.

Yes, Jesus says, “My God” in John 20:17. Scripture already explains why. He truly became man. He is the mediator. “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” ~1 Timothy 2:5. Calling the Father “my God” does not deny His deity. It affirms the incarnation. You keep pretending Scripture does not teach that, but it does.

Matthew 16 does not work for you either. Peter confessed Jesus as “the Son of the living God.” Scripture never teaches “Son of God” means “not God.” Scripture says the opposite. “In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” ~Colossians 2:9. Sonship speaks of relationship, not created status. You insert that idea. The Bible does not.

1 Corinthians 15 is about role and order, not nature. The Son’s willing submission in redemption does not make Him less than God. Scripture already settled this. “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God” ~Philippians 2:6. Equality of nature. Submission of role. Both taught. You deny one to preserve your system.

You keep demanding yes or no answers as if Scripture were a courtroom trap. God’s Word does not submit to your framing. Scripture says Jesus is sent. Scripture says He obeys. Scripture says He prays. Scripture says He submits. Scripture also says He is eternal. Creator. Worshiped. Called God ~John 1:1; ~John 20:28; ~Hebrews 1:8. I affirm all of it. You accept only the parts that fit your doctrine.

That is the issue. Not confusion. Not ignorance. It is you believing you know more than God. Hmm, now who does that remind you of?

Scripture warns about this very behavior. “There shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies” ~2 Peter 2:1. When someone denies who the Son truly is while claiming fidelity to Scripture, that is false teaching. And when it is delivered with accusation and contempt, Scripture calls it corrupt speech ~Ephesians 4:29.

You are not correcting error. You are redefining Christ. And that puts you squarely in the category Scripture warns believers to mark and reject ~Romans 16:17.

So hear this plainly. No one is running from Scripture. We actually are submitting to all of it. You are the one twisting it to say what you want. And I will continue to call that out, plainly and publicly, because Scripture commands it.

 

[JustMe]

You shout about childish talk, but your voice drips with accusation and contempt. Scripture calls that. “Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be” ~James 3:10. That is not zeal for truth. It is venom.

Now, to your verses. None of them prove what you want. All of them show how you misapply Scripture.

Yes, Jesus says, “My God” in John 20:17. Scripture already explains why. He truly became man. He is the mediator. “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” ~1 Timothy 2:5. Calling the Father “my God” does not deny His deity. It affirms the incarnation. You keep pretending Scripture does not teach that, but it does.

Matthew 16 does not work for you either. Peter confessed Jesus as “the Son of the living God.” Scripture never teaches “Son of God” means “not God.” Scripture says the opposite. “In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” ~Colossians 2:9. Sonship speaks of relationship, not created status. You insert that idea. The Bible does not.

1 Corinthians 15 is about role and order, not nature. The Son’s willing submission in redemption does not make Him less than God. Scripture already settled this. “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God” ~Philippians 2:6. Equality of nature. Submission of role. Both taught. You deny one to preserve your system.

You keep demanding yes or no answers as if Scripture were a courtroom trap. God’s Word does not submit to your framing. Scripture says Jesus is sent. Scripture says He obeys. Scripture says He prays. Scripture says He submits. Scripture also says He is eternal. Creator. Worshiped. Called God ~John 1:1; ~John 20:28; ~Hebrews 1:8. I affirm all of it. You accept only the parts that fit your doctrine.

That is the issue. Not confusion. Not ignorance. It is you believing you know more than God. Hmm, now who does that remind you of?

Scripture warns about this very behavior. “There shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies” ~2 Peter 2:1. When someone denies who the Son truly is while claiming fidelity to Scripture, that is false teaching. And when it is delivered with accusation and contempt, Scripture calls it corrupt speech ~Ephesians 4:29.

You are not correcting error. You are redefining Christ. And that puts you squarely in the category Scripture warns believers to mark and reject ~Romans 16:17.

So hear this plainly. No one is running from Scripture. We actually are submitting to all of it. You are the one twisting it to say what you want. And I will continue to call that out, plainly and publicly, because Scripture commands it.

So David, can you be so kind and respond to the four questions posed in post #66 without adding a single words to it. This will serve as a type of gauge or benchmark in truthfulness. Thanks..

 

[Marvelloustime]

that is all they have my friend . cause doctrine THEY DO NOT HAVE .
its all emotions , its all tone it down , its all accusations they have . cause as i just wrote , ITS ALL THEY HAVE .
THEY have NOT the scriptures . For the scriptures EXPOSE THEM . they have only the victim card and that card
as will their house of cards come DOWN on the day of the LORD . FLOOD this place and flood it well
with all scriptures .

@amigo de christo

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Show me clear scriptural evidence of the Son's divinity, and then I will listen.

Simply inserting the idea of the Son's divinity into scripture, such as in John 1:1, John 19:30, or Hebrews 1:8, is insufficient for obvious reasons.

To see the depth in scripture, to discern it, one needs to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. Are you? Maybe you believe you are. Has He confirmed His presence to you? He is the Comforter, the Helper, the Counselor, sent by both the Father and the Son. Did you ask for the Spirit?
We are to be "baptized by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". If it was just the Father that we needed to be baptized in, then it would not say otherwise. Something to think about.

Moving on. The scriptures mentioned are there and there are more, but they are deep and you are just scratching the surface.
For instance, when Jesus claimed that "I and the Father are ONE", that identifies Him as equal to the Father. He did not imply just being one in purpose, but in Spiritual form, mind, will, nature, attributes. His power, authority and glory( He temporarily relinquished while on earth).
A mere human, even a prophet or angel could not make that claim, nor the numerius other claims He did.
To be the "exact expression and radiance of God" doesn't mean similar or a close resemblance of; it means a perfect and pure manifestation in all ways; including His omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.
Another scripture you left out was
Col. 1:16-17, where it claims JESUS IS THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS PHYSICAL OR SPIRITUAL ON EARTH OR IN HEAVEN. Visible, invisible ...
E V E R Y T H I N G! That includes angels. SO that eliminates the possibility of Him creating Himself.
You've already wrestled with that one, distort it, avoid it and will likely remain unable to grasp it. However, seems to be forgiveness for that in this verse: Jesus did claim the "He didn't regard equality with God something to be grasped". He knew man would struggle with this concept; and He us merciful about our not being able to grasp such concepts - I think. ??
In John 1:14, after the first few verses identify Jesus as the Word and the Word is God, it says God became flesh and dwelt among us.
>Can't quite see the depth in that?
>> Col. 2:9 "In Him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form".
There it is right there ... you can't see it?

 Titus 2:13 Refers to "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".

Isaiah 9:6 A prophesy of the coming Messiah describes Him as the Mighty God ...
> That verse btw speaks of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as ONE.

John 14: 9 Jesus tells Philip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father," showing Jesus as the perfect revelation of God.
NO PROPHET OR ANGEL COULD CLAIM THAT.
I gave you a list of the I am Jesus claim to be. Let's just look at one.
"I am the way, the truth and the life ..."
That is certainly drawing attention to Himself. If He just came to speak about His Father, He would not make this claim.
>>He would have said the Father is the way, the truth, the life ... put faith in God, not me ... for He alone is the source of Life and truth. I'm just here to be a sacrifice for you and to pont you to the Father - worship Him, praise Him, love Him physically and spiritually.<<
But He drew the attention to Himself. We are to have faith in HIM! IF HE WASN'T GOD, HE WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED US TO BELIEVE IN HIM AS THE FOCUS OF OUR FAITH..IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS! The whole New Testament. "He is concealed in the OT and revealed om the NT"
... but you cannot accept or receive this.
No man or angel could take on the sins of the world; past, present and future ( in trillions and btw knowledge of each one of them) AND WASH THEM AWAY UNLESS HE WAS GOD.
NO ONE COULD BE GIVEN ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH UNLESS HE POSSESED OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPRESENCE AND OMNIPOTENCE.

 

[JustMe]

@amigo de christo
View attachment 76042

Oh, its back again,....

I have encountered this prominently displayed scripture before. It's unfortunate that neither the poster nor any associate or 'friend' has ever provided an explanation for it. Such an explanation would reveal the depth and breadth of understanding of this particular scripture that is intentionally and conspicuously presented on the screen for a particular reason, yet the explanation is always absent. So why display it at all?! It become meaningless.

I will add its meaning for you, so that you can remember it and discuss it among yourselves as an example of the truth in writing, although this word is not from the written scripture; and I am not attempting any humor here either.

I already anticipate that you might think this verse is almost entirely about Yeshua the Messiah, the Son of God, and you would be correct.

However, it is not the logos word in the way you might assume, and perhaps you are now racing to reflect on John 1:1 and similar passages to align 'this word' as the Christ? Yeshua was never the entity called the word or logos, ever. It was something placed in him for the first time at his baptism and then permanently as a solo act after his resurrection to immortality. God's word was then instilled in his Son, permanently. Today, he is permanently the word OF God. This was primarily done because God, his Father, granted his Son the authority to judge humanity independently of God, his Father—a significant responsibility. And there are other reasons.

...a brief commentary for you

Hebrews 4:12 identifies "the word of God" as Yeshua the Christ, not the Bible or a collection of scriptures. This interpretation is based on the argument that the passage could not refer to the New Testament canon, as many of its books had not yet been written by the time Hebrews was composed around 68-70 AD.

The passage is understood as referring to a living, active entity, which aligns with the post-resurrection Christ who is described as the one to whom believers must give account.

The Greek text of verse 13 uses a relative pronoun ("his") rather than the word for "God" (theos), suggesting that the subject remains "the word of God" rather than shifting to God.

The imagery of the "sharp sword" that divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, is interpreted as a metaphor for Yeshua's role in judgment, separating the righteous from the unrighteous, much like a priest using a two-edged sword to distinguish sacred from profane offerings.

This reflects Jesus' function as the high priest after the order of Melchizedek, who can sympathize with human weaknesses while also judging hearts.

The passage emphasizes that Yeshua, having been raised from the dead and exalted to the right hand of God, is now the living embodiment of God's word or logos, the one who speaks and acts with divine authority, as the sole agent for his God, his Father.

Yeshua became the "word of God" in his resurrected and exalted state, not during his earthly ministry, and this title reflects his new role as judge and high priest, not a pre-existent divine nature. Yeshua was never born with a divine nature either.

Again, the phrase "the word of God is living and active" is understood as describing Yeshua's current, dynamic role in heaven, not the fixed nature of written scripture.

This interpretation aligns with the broader theme of Hebrews, which encourages believers to hold firmly to their confession of faith in Christ, who surpasses the old covenant and its laws.

-----------------

 

[JustMe]

To see the depth in scripture, to discern it, one needs to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. Are you? Maybe you believe you are. Has He confirmed His presence to you? He is the Comforter, the Helper, the Counselor, sent by both the Father and the Son. Did you ask for the Spirit?
We are to be "baptized by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". If it was just the Father that we needed to be baptized in, then it would not say otherwise. Something to think about.

Moving on. The scriptures mentioned are there and there are more, but they are deep and you are just scratching the surface.
For instance, when Jesus claimed that "I and the Father are ONE", that identifies Him as equal to the Father. He did not imply just being one in purpose, but in Spiritual form, mind, will, nature, attributes. His power, authority and glory( He temporarily relinquished while on earth).
A mere human, even a prophet or angel could not make that claim, nor the numerius other claims He did.
To be the "exact expression and radiance of God" doesn't mean similar or a close resemblance of; it means a perfect and pure manifestation in all ways; including His omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.
Another scripture you left out was
Col. 1:16-17, where it claims JESUS IS THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS PHYSICAL OR SPIRITUAL ON EARTH OR IN HEAVEN. Visible, invisible ...
E V E R Y T H I N G! That includes angels. SO that eliminates the possibility of Him creating Himself.
You've already wrestled with that one, distort it, avoid it and will likely remain unable to grasp it. However, seems to be forgiveness for that in this verse: Jesus did claim the "He didn't regard equality with God something to be grasped". He knew man would struggle with this concept; and He us merciful about our not being able to grasp such concepts - I think. ??
In John 1:14, after the first few verses identify Jesus as the Word and the Word is God, it says God became flesh and dwelt among us.
>Can't quite see the depth in that?
>> Col. 2:9 "In Him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form".
There it is right there ... you can't see it?

 Titus 2:13 Refers to "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".

Isaiah 9:6 A prophesy of the coming Messiah describes Him as the Mighty God ...
> That verse btw speaks of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as ONE.

John 14: 9 Jesus tells Philip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father," showing Jesus as the perfect revelation of God.
NO PROPHET OR ANGEL COULD CLAIM THAT.
I gave you a list of the I am Jesus claim to be. Let's just look at one.
"I am the way, the truth and the life ..."
That is certainly drawing attention to Himself. If He just came to speak about His Father, He would not make this claim.
>>He would have said the Father is the way, the truth, the life ... put faith in God, not me ... for He alone is the source of Life and truth. I'm just here to be a sacrifice for you and to pont you to the Father - worship Him, praise Him, love Him physically and spiritually.<<
But He drew the attention to Himself. We are to have faith in HIM! IF HE WASN'T GOD, HE WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED US TO BELIEVE IN HIM AS THE FOCUS OF OUR FAITH..IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS! The whole New Testament. "He is concealed in the OT and revealed om the NT"
... but you cannot accept or receive this.
No man or angel could take on the sins of the world; past, present and future ( in trillions and btw knowledge of each one of them) AND WASH THEM AWAY UNLESS HE WAS GOD.
NO ONE COULD BE GIVEN ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH UNLESS HE POSSESED OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPRESENCE AND OMNIPOTENCE.

Nice try Ronald. It does not come close to any proof text or even one logical plausible argument of a divine Messiah.

For one, making one equal to God, his Father is a key to the answer that would favor my arguments. If you delved into this expression and meaning further, you might stumble of some gems underfoot.

Thanks, although the contents of this post does not move me at all. The only force and power that does move me is the current and constant presence of spirit of God within Christ's spirit and mine.

I will do commentaries on the things you have written here. It just takes some time to process your lengthy post, drawn from several different scripture passages. And again, all this scripture does not point to a divine Christ at all.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again bdavidc,

You have been shown what the text actually says.

Time for me to move on and leave you to your conviction. I have given substantial evidence that the translation "I will be" is correct. I could quote other advocates of this as the correct translation, but I consider that I have stated sufficient evidence. Robert Alter has half a page of small print discussing this issue. Perhaps two more.

The Englishman's Concordance has a listing of many of the occurrences of Ehyeh. It groups them under various headings and places Exodus 3:14 under the heading Future Tense. All the other verses in this section of the list are translated into the English as future tense.

I retired at 60 and only then connected to the Internet. On the recommendation of a Trinitarian workmate I considered a particular Forum and the first thread that I noticed was a long running thread on The Understanding of the Yahweh Name. The person who started the thread advocated "I will be", and he was opposed by three Trinitarians who advocated "I AM". The thread ran for 143 posts and at the end two of the Trinitarians agreed with "I will be". That was over 20 years ago, but I checked recently with one of these who is still active on that forum and is a specialist in the Hebrew language, and he agreed that he still endorses "I will be". I have a copy of that thread and it is useful for reference.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JustMe]

Greetings again bdavidc,

Time for me to move on and leave you to your conviction. I have given substantial evidence that the translation "I will be" is correct. I could quote other advocates of this as the correct translation, but I consider that I have stated sufficient evidence. Robert Alter has half a page of small print discussing this issue. Perhaps two more.

The Englishman's Concordance has a listing of many of the occurrences of Ehyeh. It groups them under various headings and places Exodus 3:14 under the heading Future Tense. All the other verses in this section of the list are translated into the English as future tense.

I retired at 60 and only then connected to the Internet. On the recommendation of a Trinitarian workmate I considered a particular Forum and the first thread that I noticed was a long running thread on The Understanding of the Yahweh Name. The person who started the thread advocated "I will be", and he was opposed by three Trinitarians who advocated "I AM". The thread ran for 143 posts and at the end two of the Trinitarians agreed with "I will be". That was over 20 years ago, but I checked recently with one of these who is still active on that forum and is a specialist in the Hebrew language, and he agreed that he still endorses "I will be". I have a copy of that thread and it is useful for reference.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor, an excellent post of a positive nature. Thank you for your input. It builds confidence in knowing that God does intervene in the affairs of his people, even in ways you just described with the internet connection....

Bless you and don't you dare go away. Your experience is too valuable to kept be to yourself.

 

[bdavidc]

So David, can you be so kind and respond to the four questions posed in post #66 without adding a single words to it. This will serve as a type of gauge or benchmark in truthfulness. Thanks..

No. I am not playing word-trap games. Scripture is not a courtroom trick where you get to force yes or no answers while ignoring everything else God has said. Jesus shut that tactic down every time it was used because it is dishonest ~Matthew 22:46.

Your questions are designed to make someone deny either the incarnation or the deity of Christ. I will do neither. The Bible says Jesus humbled Himself and submitted in His earthly mission, and the Bible also says He is fully God, eternal, Creator, and worthy of worship ~Philippians 2:6; ~Colossians 2:9; ~Hebrews 1:8. I affirm all of it.

This has already been answered. I am standing on Scripture. You are trying to slice it until it fits your system. I will not cooperate with that.

 

[bdavidc]

Greetings again bdavidc,

Time for me to move on and leave you to your conviction. I have given substantial evidence that the translation "I will be" is correct. I could quote other advocates of this as the correct translation, but I consider that I have stated sufficient evidence. Robert Alter has half a page of small print discussing this issue. Perhaps two more.

The Englishman's Concordance has a listing of many of the occurrences of Ehyeh. It groups them under various headings and places Exodus 3:14 under the heading Future Tense. All the other verses in this section of the list are translated into the English as future tense.

I retired at 60 and only then connected to the Internet. On the recommendation of a Trinitarian workmate I considered a particular Forum and the first thread that I noticed was a long running thread on The Understanding of the Yahweh Name. The person who started the thread advocated "I will be", and he was opposed by three Trinitarians who advocated "I AM". The thread ran for 143 posts and at the end two of the Trinitarians agreed with "I will be". That was over 20 years ago, but I checked recently with one of these who is still active on that forum and is a specialist in the Hebrew language, and he agreed that he still endorses "I will be". I have a copy of that thread and it is useful for reference.

Kind regards
Trevor

It does not matter how many people agree with you. Truth is not decided by consensus. Scripture says, “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4. A crowd can agree and still be wrong. Agreement does not turn opinion into truth.

You have not given evidence from the text itself. You have given appeals to scholars, concordances, old forum threads, and specialists. None of that is Scripture. Scripture interprets Scripture ~1 Corinthians 4:6. If a claim cannot be shown from the passage in question, it is not biblical proof.

In Exodus 3:14 God does not leave His name open to academic debate. He explains it Himself. He says, “I AM THAT I AM,” then commands Moses to say, “I AM hath sent me unto you,” and then seals it with, “This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations” ~Exodus 3:14–15. The text gives no future-tense meaning. God roots His name in His self-existence, not in what He will become.

Appealing to other uses of ehyeh does not overturn the context. Words take meaning from context, and here the context is God revealing His eternal name. Scripture reinforces this when God says, “I am the LORD, I change not” ~Malachi 3:6, and when Jesus claims that same divine name, saying, “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58.

Moving on may be convenient, but it does not resolve error. When someone continues to replace God’s own explanation with human opinion, the issue is no longer translation preference. It is refusal to submit to what God has said. Scripture is clear about that. “Repent ye therefore, and be converted” ~Acts 3:19.

 

[JustMe]

@Ronald David Bruno Here's a commentary on the Son, being like or equal with his Father, who is the one God. I said this subject stood out and I wanted to get to it...I did not address John 10:30 per se, although its interpretation is of the same as the other scripture, in spirit.

I did not address John 10:30 in this commentary. I shall add something at the end for John 10:30, real time, with some haste.

Yeshua like or equal to God​

Yeshua’s statements and actions in the Gospel of John indicates a unique, exalted role rather than divine equality in essence or nature of his Father. When Yeshua is described as being "equal with God" in John 5:18, the context reveals that the local religious authorities perceived him as claiming divine prerogatives—such as performing works on the Sabbath and referring to God as his own Father—actions they believed only God could legitimately perform. However, this perception does not equate to Yeshua claiming to be God in substance or essence or nature, but rather asserting a delegated authority as an agent and a unique relationship with his Father.

This is supported by Yeshua consistently affirming his dependence on the Father, stating, “The Son can do nothing by himself, unless he sees the Father doing it” (John 5:19), and “I can do nothing on my own” (John 5:30).

This functional and real dependence is thus seen as wholly incompatible with full, independent deity. Such statements are affirming a subordinate role, where Yeshua acts in accordance with the Father’s will and is empowered by Him. Again, Yeshua is employed as God’s agent as he also has his Father’s word literally inside of him.

In John 17:3, Jesus refers to the Father as “the only true God” and himself as “whom you have sent,” supporting the view that only the Father is the true God, and Jesus is a distinct, created agent.

In Philippians 2:6–8, where Jesus is said to have “emptied himself” and taken the form of a servant, is evidence that he did not possess a so-called pre-existent divine nature but was exalted after his obedience and death. The exaltation of Yeshua to the highest place and the bestowal of the name above every name (Philippians 2:9) is seen as a reward for his obedience, not a reconfirmation of his inherent divinity.

In John 3:13, where Yeshua says, “No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man,” it is argued that this statement is cryptic and not a literal claim to pre-existence, but rather a way of emphasizing, via idioms, his unique divine commission and authority as the Messiah, not a claim to be God. The language of the Gospel of John, while rich in symbolism, should be interpreted in light of the broader biblical context, which consistently presents God as one, and Yeshua as a human being uniquely anointed and elevated by God for his purpose of executing his plan of salvation through his Son.

(Joh 5:18) For this cause the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath law, but he called God his own Father, making himself seem like God.

(Joh 5:19) Jesus therefore answered and said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you: The Son can do nothing of himself but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever works He does, these the Son does in like manner.

(Joh 5:30) I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.

(Joh 17:3) And this is everlasting life, that they should know You, the only true God, and him whom You sent, Jesus Christ.

(Php 2:6) Who, though being in the mental image of God, did not consider grasping at being equal with God,

(Php 2:7) but poured himself out, taking the mental attitude of a servant, and was the made just the same as all ordinary men.

(Php 2:8) And being perceived as a normal man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
------------------------------------------------

(Joh 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

(Joh 10:24) The Jews surrounded him and said to him: How long do you hold us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.

(Joh 10:25) Jesus answered them: I told you and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify of me.

(Joh 10:26) But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.

(Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.

(Joh 10:28) And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.

John 10:30 carries a similar meaning and understanding as the scripture mentioned above. They complement each other. The context here is very important. Take note of the initial question by the religious leaders, the familiar question, "Are you the Messiah?" (verse 24c). It is important to observe that the question was not "Are you God?" Yeshua clarified how he and his Father work together as one in purpose, but not in nature or essence. The authorities either did not comprehend or believe that the word of God, the logos of God, was present in Yeshua and operated within him closely. Many Christians also miss this crucial point, elevating Yeshua as a deity or divine being instead of recognizing that God, his Father, was always in his Son. Yeshua stated that all his work was his Father's work, as he approved it (verse 25b). Finally, Yeshua provides an example of how he and his Father are one (verses 27-29). His Father gives his chosen ones to his Son, and his Son cares for and protects them to grant them eternal life, like a good shepherd..

These verses do not indicate that Yeshua claims to be God, like his Father. Nothing could be further from the truth.
------------------

Later dude..

 

[JustMe]

No. I am not playing word-trap games. Scripture is not a courtroom trick where you get to force yes or no answers while ignoring everything else God has said. Jesus shut that tactic down every time it was used because it is dishonest ~Matthew 22:46.

Your questions are designed to make someone deny either the incarnation or the deity of Christ. I will do neither. The Bible says Jesus humbled Himself and submitted in His earthly mission, and the Bible also says He is fully God, eternal, Creator, and worthy of worship ~Philippians 2:6; ~Colossians 2:9; ~Hebrews 1:8. I affirm all of it.

This has already been answered. I am standing on Scripture. You are trying to slice it until it fits your system. I will not cooperate with that.

The scripture I gave are stand-alone, without my influence or any artificial input. There's been no attempt to read-into scripture either. I have more of the same if you do not like the sound of those given here. You also might have just shown your true colors, as you apparently will only select and approve scripture that you deem supportive of a belief system not found in scripture.

Anyway, I would not get too bend out shape over it. Who am I to dictate what you should believe anyway. Pick and choose the verses you like and put aside the rest. I really do not care, as I'm not qualified to judge anyone, including yourself.

Later then...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Nice try Ronald. It does not come close to any proof text or even one logical plausible argument of a divine Messiah.

For one, making one equal to God, his Father is a key to the answer that would favor my arguments. If you delved into this expression and meaning further, you might stumble of some gems underfoot.

Thanks, although the contents of this post does not move me at all. The only force and power that does move me is the current and constant presence of spirit of God within Christ's spirit and mine.

I will do commentaries on the things you have written here. It just takes some time to process your lengthy post, drawn from several different scripture passages. And again, all this scripture does not point to a divine Christ at all.

If it is true that you have the Spirit within you, don't you think He would reveal the truth to you? As a loving God would teach us all truth, wouldn't this truth be fundamental and important for all to understand? Why then would He reveal to 97+% of the Body of Christ ( 2.7 billion) this truth if it were false? Even Spock would tell you, "You must be mistaken and your presumptions/ theory, illogical! Furthermore it is illogical that the Father could grant anyone to have all authority in heaven and earth unless they were also God! And frankly Captain Kirk, this would be impossible!" Lol
Grok would tell you that and he it doesn't ha e spiritual discernment.
But I knew my post wouldn't persuade you. You just asked and I delivered. There is always that pervading wall we bump up against. As I said, when you see Him you'll bow to your knees and all of a sudden know the truth. Go your way, God bless.