"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[saved by grace 101]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is correct and is also what is taught in Protestantism.

You seem to like the verses that SEEM to state that it is not obligatory to obey the 10 comamndments.




John 14:15 JESUS SAID
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


I asked you once before and you did not reply.

Here is my question again:

WHAT COMMANDMENTS WAS JESUS REFERRING TO?


When Jesus stated
NOT ALL THOSE WHO CRY LORD, LORD ARE GOING TO HEAVEN,
BUT THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER.
Matthew 7:21

What did JESUS MEAN by this statement?


And here is what Romans 7:4-6 means:

New Living Translation
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.

We have died to the POWER of the Law.
As you stated in your explanation of the NC.
We are now united with Jesus....and so NOW we can produce a harvest of good deeds.

We are STILL required to do good deeds - to obey the commandments of Jesus...
but we now have the ABILITY to obey with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Paul made it very clear in all his writings that the sinful will not go to heaven:

Galatians 5:13-21
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

John14:15 refers to Christ's commands in the gospels. I thought we agreed, the more you love others the more you are in line with those commands
I believe it is not obligatory to obey the TC?
Have you not read what I have previously stated? The law which was once engraved in stone is now in the heart of a believer. We do not have to say now, you MUST obey the TC, it is a case of believers wanting to live in their heart as God desires them to live. You MUST old coven ant, you want to, New Covenant.
You can only die to the power of the law if you die to justification of obeying it
Concerning your verses from Galatians
Do we then make void the law by faith/righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law? God forbid: Yea: We establish the law
I have a question
If you believed as a christian you have no justification of obeying the moral law, would you then happily go out and sin as much as you liked?

 

[saved by grace 101]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is correct and is also what is taught in Protestantism.

You seem to like the verses that SEEM to state that it is not obligatory to obey the 10 comamndments.




John 14:15 JESUS SAID
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


I asked you once before and you did not reply.

Here is my question again:

WHAT COMMANDMENTS WAS JESUS REFERRING TO?


When Jesus stated
NOT ALL THOSE WHO CRY LORD, LORD ARE GOING TO HEAVEN,
BUT THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER.
Matthew 7:21

What did JESUS MEAN by this statement?


And here is what Romans 7:4-6 means:

New Living Translation
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.

We have died to the POWER of the Law.
As you stated in your explanation of the NC.
We are now united with Jesus....and so NOW we can produce a harvest of good deeds.

We are STILL required to do good deeds - to obey the commandments of Jesus...
but we now have the ABILITY to obey with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Paul made it very clear in all his writings that the sinful will not go to heaven:

Galatians 5:13-21
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why is the power of sin the law?
You said the catechism of the catholic church is correct. That stated break one of the commands you break them all.
If your justification hinges on obeying them, an example:
A young teenager who has just reached puberty believes they must obey the TC to remain justified in God's sight. Before them stands the tenth commandment:
Thou shalt not covet/thou shalt not desire what is not yours to desire/thou shalt not lust/thou shalt not dwell on any impure thought. What will the young teenager think?
''''I must not lust, I must not dwell on any impure thought, I don't want to go to hell, I must not have impure thoughts''
What do you think will be the result? Can you escape thinking of what you fear, or will thoughts of what you fear consume you? What would you fear more than being cast into hell? The more you fear the more you concentrate on what you fear
Hence: The power of sin is the law
And it is biblical, In Rom7:7-11 Paul is speaking of the time the law came to him, as a thirteen year old when he made a commitment to God:
Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet/one of the Ten Commandmants.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7&8

There is n o watered down version of the TC in the bible, only the true version!

 

[GodsGrace]

@saved by grace 101

We seem to agree.
Not sure where we disagree.

Won't have time till later.
Maybe a simple question would be this, but I will address your posts later.
Are we required to obey God after salvation??

 

[saved by grace 101]

@saved by grace 101

We seem to agree.
Not sure where we disagree.

Won't have time till later.
Maybe a simple question would be this, but I will address your posts later.
Are we required to obey God after salvation??

You didnt answer my question, please answer it first. If you believed you had no justification as a christian of obeying the moral law, would you then go out and happily sin as much as you like?

 

[XtraPercept]

SOME DO say that they can live as they wish and still be saved.

Those filled with the Spirit do live precisely as they please; in obedience to God.

 

[XtraPercept]

Are we required to obey God after salvation??

Obedience to God is not only part of salvation, but the very indication of it.

 

[XtraPercept]

You will perfectly obey the law?

My apologies, I missed this.

Didn't Jesus say something to the effect of, "be perfect, therefore, as your Father is perfect?"

So my answer is yes, someday.

I am not presently perfected but have sufficient personal experience to support my certainty that I will not be harmed by the second death.

 

[saved by grace 101]

My apologies, I missed this.

Didn't Jesus say something to the effect of, "be perfect, therefore, as your Father is perfect?"

So my answer is yes, someday.

I am not presently perfected but have sufficient personal experience to support my certainty that I will not be harmed by the second death.

So the christian can perfectly obey the letter Paul stated kills, the ministry of death and condemnation? He stated that to born again christians in the present tense. And John stated if we(he included himself in the we) claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I think it is good to reflect on what would be involved in order to reach sinless perfection

 

[XtraPercept]

So the christian can perfectly obey the letter Paul stated kills, the ministry of death and condemnation? He stated that to born again christians in the present tense. And John stated if we(he included himself in the we) claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I think it is good to reflect on what would be involved in order to reach sinless perfection

The letter is what you are getting hung up on, this notion of "perfection at present" being part of the equation.

It only looks that way because parts of the formula being applied are incomplete or inaccurate.

That's why the Apostles say things like "we who are being saved" and often use a present progressive tense in words most people don't understand as applicable like that today.

It's not obedience to the letter being preached, it is the Spirit of the letter which guides us into the obedience being taught.

Those being saved preach the Spirit who saves them, moment by moment as a Shepherd who guides His sheep by rod and staff.

 

[saved by grace 101]

The letter is what you are getting hung up on, this notion of "perfection at present" being part of the equation.

It only looks that way because parts of the formula being applied are incomplete or inaccurate.

That's why the Apostles say things like "we who are being saved" and often use a present progressive tense in words most people don't understand as applicable like that today.

It's not obedience to the letter being preached, it is the Spirit of the letter which guides us into the obedience being taught.

Those being saved preach the Spirit who saves them, moment by moment as a Shepherd who guides His sheep by rod and staff.

But to be perfect in respect of not committing sin would require perfectly obeying the letter

 

[XtraPercept]

But to be perfect in respect of not committing sin would require perfectly obeying the letter

David said there are limits to all perfection. God has no limits.

What is it to be perfect? Who determines that definition?

We are being perfected. Can you imagine what that looks like?

Such an imagination, Biblically founded, would not be vain; indeed, it would lead to reverence for God, which is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[saved by grace 101]

David said there are limits to all perfection. God has no limits.

What is it to be perfect? Who determines that definition?

We are being perfected. Can you imagine what that looks like?

Such an imagination would certainly not be vain; indeed, it would lead to reverence for God, which is the beginning of wisdom.

In theory it might sound plausible, but not in practice

 

[XtraPercept]

In theory it might sound plausible, but not in practice

The only thing to practice is belief. We have no power otherwise.

You are assuming responsibility for that which you cannot control, so of course the practice as you attempt it will fail.

God is all-powerful; believe Him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

As to the rest of what you wrote, I will ask you, a catholic, what is the core foundation upon which the new covenant stands?

The same as it is for ALL Christianity:
The atoning Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now – if you don’t mind – I’d like to get back on topic . . .

 

[saved by grace 101]

The only thing to practice is belief.

We have no power otherwise.

As a minister of fifty years stated:
''If we all followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all'

 

[XtraPercept]

As a minister of fifty years stated:
''If we all followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all'

You are not making the point here you seem to presume to be.

Your quote is in express agreement with everything I have been saying.

 

[saved by grace 101]

The same as it is for ALL Christianity:
The atoning Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now – if you don’t mind – I’d like to get back on topic . . .

Your church really should have explained it to you Heb10:15-18

 

[saved by grace 101]

You are not making the point here you seem to presume to be.

Your quote is in express agreement with everything I have been saying.

So what is theoretically possible, if we do not allow for human frailties, will never be the reality

 

[XtraPercept]

So what is theoretically possible, if we do not allow for human frailties, will never be the reality

What is possible is inaccessible to you because you simply refuse to believe it.

 

[saved by grace 101]

What is possible is inaccessible to you because you simply refuse to believe it.

So did John:
If we(John includes himself in the we) claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8