Lol
You can not possibly make the 2 comings of mat 24 into one.
You can try.
But you stall out , because you omit "before the flood"
Before the flood is actually "after"
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You can not possibly make the 2 comings of mat 24 into one.
You can try.
But you stall out , because you omit "before the flood"
37 For just like the days of Noah[a] were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. 38 For in those days before the flood, people[b] were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. 39 And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away.[c] It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.
The same thing is going to happen again just look around the society
The churches have not warned them about what is going to be coming because most preached the rapture
There will be another flood only this flood will be lies
And most people as the Bible says, will worship the antichrist, so that means they will drowned in lies and Satan will take them all away
The ark is the armor of God
The same thing is going to happen again just look around the society
The churches have not warned them about what is going to be coming because most preached the rapture
There will be another flood only this flood will be lies
And most people as the Bible says, will worship the antichrist, so that means they will drowned in lies and Satan will take them all away
The ark is the armor of God
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
I'm not entirely certain how you are applying these things in these verses, but it seems rather clear to me that the following should be understood like such.
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The days of Noah included all of the following.
A) in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage
B) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The coming of the Son of man occurs while they are still doing the above per A). To show what I'm trying to get at here, let's assume A) involves them doing that for 10 years, for example. Obviously, per this scenario, the coming of the Son of man doesn't begin with the beginning of this 10 years, it is instead meaning at the end of this 10 years when the coming of the Son of man occurs.
And what happens to them at the end of this 10 years? Is it not B)? Once that happens to them they are obviously no longer doing what A) records.
Per this scenario it does not make sense, that at the end of this 10 years we are at the beginning of great tribulation rather than at the end of this age. And one reason why, all of the following has to be factored in and that it makes zero sense that these things would be happening to them prior to great tribulation beginning.
Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Per Pretrib, shouldn't these be raptured to heaven prior to great tribulation during the coming of the Son of man? How does it make sense to apply verses 45-47 to someone that has just been raptured to heaven? These verses sound like something that happens to someone in the end of this age, and that they are then rewarded with these things, such as, shall make him ruler over all his goods, during the millennium that follows. Clearly, it makes zero sense to apply verse 47 to that of a Pretrib rapture, since this would mean the ones meant in verse 47 would be in heaven per a Pretrib scenario.
One can't argue, and expect to be taken serious, that the coming involving verses 45-47 does not occur during the coming involving verse 39, when the following verses are clearly what happens to those that verses 45-47 are not including.
Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Obviously, what happens to these above during the coming of the Son of Man is not recorded in verses 45-47, it is recorded in verse 39---and took them all away.
Maybe you are unable to follow my train of thought since others have told me in the past that I'm hard to follow at times? Or, maybe you are able to follow my train of thought, except that you disagree with my reasoning of some of these things? Regardless what the case might be, at least I'm attempting to do what you insist Post Tribbers avoid, and that is, dealing with 'before the flood'.
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apply vs 38 to the verse that says "after the tribulation"..which is the second coming.
Show me how those 2 verses are the same coming.
Because "after the tribulation" is the second coming which would be "after the flood"
See what I mean?
Some are trying to say there is no difference. So they have to do something about the time frame.
They are painted into a corner.
They have no confusion at all about "after" being a setting.
But "before" to them, can not possibly be "before".
Now, when we see Lot depicted with Noah...it is truly game over, because how are they going to craftily make that one into a "after judgement" dynamic???????
Davy
Well-Known Member
There's only ONE event about Christ's future coming written in the Matthew 24 Scripture, as Jesus was answering His disciples question about the SIGN of His coming, and of the end of the world...
Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV
If you'd just try and stick to the actual written Bible Scripture, and quit listening to those pushing the false leaven of a pre-trib rapture theory, then you'd easily grasp what the Scripture clearly reveals as written.
you would need to actually address the verses, not omit them.
Omit means to leave out.
Or skip
Or hide
Ignore them is your strategy.
You just proved how you miss the target, then celebrate your ignoring of Gods word.
I just told you you can not unpack them
Then you demonstrated that very thing.
You have made yourself into a conveyer of a doctrine you can not possibly defend.
I totally understand what that must feel like.
I hold back as much as possible, because you have displayed an embarrassing lack of knowledge.
You are doing it to yourself by dodging every single time I call you out.
You painted yourself into the proverbial postribber corner.
How can you keep dodging?
We all know why
Davy
Well-Known Member
Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Brethren in Christ, the deceived who REJECT the above TIMING that Lord Jesus Christ Himself gave for His future coming and gathering of His Church, are only condemning themselves with mocking what He said. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes when Jesus returns after the "great tribulation" to gather His faithful saints who do... trust in His Word.
Over and over you post that Jesus comes after The trib.
Yep
You post that angels gather after THE trib
Yep
You post that angels gather from heaven
Yep.
All that is after The trib
Yep
Then you post, that in your mind, against the facts of those verses, that the rapture , a gathering FROM EARTH, NOT HEAVEN, by aJesus not angels, in a pretrib setting, with normal life and commerce, can only be falsely applied to the opposite setting or a postrib setting.
Then you commence to dispense of those peacetime pretrib rapture settings, by bizarre reframing and clever disguising.
So many witnesses against you, and yet you are supposedly oblivious.
How embarrassed you must be.
The Light
Well-Known Member
There are two raptures. The days of Noah represents the pre trib rapture and the days of Lot represents the pre wrath rapture at the 6th seal. (which is after the tribulation) This is why there appears to be a contradiction.
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The only Rapture that I see during the trib is revelation 14:14. That is a gathering of the Jews. But the one in Luke 17 and the one in Matthew 24 have the exact same setting, and they have the same Dynamic of one's taken and one is left. So it pretty much has to be a pre-trib rapture in both instances.
I see it only fitting a Pre-trib rapture because of the setting the setting is off on anything but a pre-trib rapture.
The Light
Well-Known Member
You are correct that the gathering in Rev 14 is the gathering of the Jews (from the earth). This is the seed of the woman. The woman, the nation of Israel, is not gathered during this 2nd rapture, only her seed. The woman is in her place of protection during the 1-year wrath of God. The woman, Israel, flees to this place of protection during the tribulation and is there during wrath........protected.
The Jews were supposed to be the 1st harvest, but they served other gods. The Gentiles are now the 1st harvest. The fig tree has two harvests as there are two raptures.
Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
The rapture that you see in Rev 14 is not during the tribulation. It is immediately after the tribulation. The tribulation ends at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. So the rapture in Rev 14 is this...........................
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here are the signs of the sun, moon and stars in Rev 6 showing us that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 6 which is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14, BEFORE WRATH.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Tribulation and wrath are NOT the same thing. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. God cuts the days short and Jesus returns for the harvest. This is the second harvest as the fig tree has two harvests. One like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood and one like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction comes.
When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals as the wrath God is over at the 7th trumpet. At the 7th trumpet, Jesus returns, Armegeddon is over and Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth. Then back to the seal in Rev 13 and 14. Then back in the wrath in Rev 15 and 16.
The Church is raptured pretrib before the tribulation. The seed of the woman is raptured immediately after the tribulation and then wrath begins. Only the Woman, Israel, in her place of protection is on the earth during the wrath of God............and unbelievers.
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"""The Church is raptured pretrib before the tribulation. The seed of the woman is raptured immediately after the tribulation and then wrath begins. Only the Woman, Israel, in her place of protection is on the earth during the wrath of God............and unbelievers."""
I agree.
But Luke 17, acts 1, and matt 24, and matt25 have the setting of the return (rapture) as free commerce, marrying, peacetime, normal life.
The midrib model ( modern term is "prewrath") is not plausible. No free commerce, and The AC chasing after those refusing the mark.
The Light
Well-Known Member
I am not explaining myself well.
There are two raptures. The Church is raptured before the tribulation (tribulation is not the wrath of God). This is when men are marrying and normal life. After the Church is gone the tribulation will begin shortly after.
Lets look at your comment ..............."The midrib model ( modern term is "prewrath")"
This is an incorrect statement though this is what most people think. Tribulation and wrath are completely separate events. So mid trib is not pre wrath. Post Trib is Pre-Wrath. The tribulation is OVER before the wrath of God begins.
You can present plenty of evidence that there is a pretribulation rapture. But have you noticed that there is plenty of scriptures that say a rapture is after the tribulation................immediately after the tribulation
There is both a pretrib rapture of the Church (Noah in the ark 6 days before the flood )and a pre wrath rapture (The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came) of the Jews (seed of the woman Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth.
Pre wrath is also Post trib. But many people think that Post trib means at the end of the trumpets. Post trib-Pre wrath is at the sixth seal and not end of the trumpets.
It would be more correct to say this instead---Great tribulation and the wrath of God are NOT the same thing.
But God is not the only one that has wrath. satan also has wrath, great wrath, and that his great wrath is involving great tribulation. Thus it would be more correct to say this---great tribulation and the great wrath of satan are the same thing. While great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing.
Therefore, it is not entirely correct that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.
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Some of this I agree with you about, meaning only what I underlined.
As to a supposed mid trib possibility, there is no such thing as mid trib to begin with. Mid trib is the same thing as pretrib. And here is why. Great tribulation is not 7 years, thus 84 months, it's only 42 months. Midtrib conflates Daniel's 70th week with that of great tribulation. Mid trib has the rapture taking place in the middle of the 70th week which is not the same thing as the rapture taking place in the middle of great tribulation.
IOW, just like pretrib, mid trib has the rapture taking place prior to the beginning of great tribulation. Obviously, unless one lacks good common sense altogether, thus disagrees with the following, any proposed rapture theory that precedes the beginning of great tribulation, no matter what title one wants to call that theory, it is clearly pretrib since that is what pretrib means. It means a rapture that precedes the beginning of great tribulation.
Per Daniel's 70th week there is no great tribulation involving the first half. Great tribulation is only involving the 2nd half and that mid trib has the rapture occurring in the middle of the 70th week, not in the middle of great tribulation, but prior to the beginning of great tribulation. The middle of great tribulation is not at the beginning of it, lol, it would be 21 months into it being when the actual middle of it is.
Great tribulation is 42 months, the middle of that would be 21 months later, duh. That's not where Midtrib places the rapture, though. Mid trib places the rapture prior to the beginning of great tribulation, not 21 months later instead, where the true middle of great tribulation is located. Therefore, once again, midtrib is the same thing as pretrib since both views propose that the rapture precedes the beginning of great tribulation.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Your summation is correct. The only error is see is not underlining everything I wrote...........LOL
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The 42 months that Satan is allowed is neither God's wrath, nor any tribulation or persecution of any church redeemed.
The church is not on earth during Satan's 42 months also what Jesus called the time of the abomination of desolation. Matthew 24:15-20 is not before the GT. It is after Jacob's trouble.
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"
These 42 months cover Revelation 17-19 and include the 7 vials in chapter 16 for the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay lifeless in Jerusalem. As soon as the 42 months ends, Satan is given authority to kill the 2 witnesses, and that is when the 7 vials are poured out on his empire.
Only those beheaded leave the flesh behind during this time the mark is handed out (the 42 months of the 8th king, and his 10 leaders of 10 sections of the map). It is the choice between losing one's head or receiving the mark and removed from the Lamb's book of life. People may die, but they their souls go to sheol or death. During those last 42 months the final harvest gathered during the Trumpets and Thunders, the sheep and the wheat, are waiting on the sea of glass in heaven per Revelation 15.
So they left individually transported by angels one at a time during the Trumpets and Thunders.
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."
These all had the victory over Satan and where never subjected to those 42 months. They already had permanent incorruptible physical bodies.
The beheaded were souls waiting elsewhere to be judged, and given the first resurrection after Armageddon, and Satan is bound in the pit.
The wheat are gathered last per Matthew 13. So the last of them go through the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders, which information was sealed up until the 6th Trumpet sounds. The 7 Thunders take place between the 6th and 7th Trumpets. They take place between the 2nd and 3rd woes. The 42 months of abomination of desolation is the 3rd woe, when Satan has 100% control of earth's kingdoms and governmental power to do as he pleases. That is why the beheaded are told to flee Jerusalem. People need to make an informed decision to choose God or Satan, not forced one way or the other.
Davy
Well-Known Member
WOW! You just keep digging YOUR ditch deeper and deeper!
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
You FORGOT to read the Mark 13 version, which covers Paul's 1 Thess.4;17 verse.
So I will SAY IT AGAIN:
1. Matthew 24:31 "... from one end of heaven to the other." = 1 Thess.4:13-16 about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him FROM HEAVEN (after they are resurrected first).
2. Mark 13:27 "... from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." = 1 Thess.4:17 with the "caught up" event, what some call the 'rapture' of the Church, but is actually ONLY about the gathering of the saints STILL ALIVE ON EARTH at that same event of Christ's future return.
Yes we know there is a gathering AFTER THE GT.
Thank you for pointing out 1 of 3 gatherings.
It is as if you think that going back for the stragglers after main harvest is main harvest.since you have no idea of the dynamic of harvest.
Yes there is a harvest after the main harvest of the church.( the one you think is the main harvest)
Maybe study harvest.?
Maybe study what the word , "brefore" means?
Maybe pay attention to the setting of the rapture, since you misplace the rapture?
But pointing out one of 3 gatherings is ok.
Just center your misplacement there, and pretend the other verses don't exist?
Oh, wait, you are doing that already.
Carry on Mr omit.
Keep showing your misplacement.
In your mind, what is it that leads you to believe that the church and the seed of the woman, that these are not one and the same?
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I take it that you are drawing some of your conclusions from this verse. And if yes, one is to seriously believe the following?
which keep the commandments of God. This does not fit the church, this only fits the seed of the woman.
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This too does not fit the church. No one per the church at any time whatsoever, past, present, or future, could possibly have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Only the seed of the woman can have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
One thing that is pretty clear to me and has been pretty clear to me for quite some time now, is this. Pretribbers are nothing but a bunch of deceivers with their phony Pretrib rapture nonsense. Not only did Paul warn us to let no man deceive us by any means, Jesus warned us as well. Pretribbers ignore these warnings because they are among the ones attempting to deceive others with their unbiblical nonsense. No wonder they ignore these warnings. And would have us believe that the church is not even here during great tribulation, that those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, that these are not even meaning the church. So on and so on.
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