Before the flood is actually "after"

[rebuilder 454]

.. and you omit that He was referring to the tribulation of the saints:

Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15
9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?

And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.

They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 2:21
"Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

You also omit that He said that for the elect's sake, the days will be shortened, and you also omit that He concluded what He was saying with this:

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

You omit a lot in order to pretend that tribulation and the three times in the New Testament that tribulation is described as GREAT tribulation is referring to the wrath/judgment of God that is to come upon the unbelieving world.

Omission is not your friend.

We all know there are saints on earth DURING THE TRIB.
We all know that.

We all know the great multitude came out of the trib and are in heaven during some point of the trib.
We all know that.
Maybe spell out what you believe and your timeline instead of refuting me for some hidden reason.
You are so busy defining what trib is and how many times it us in the bible, I can't see what you are getting at.
What are you saying???
You are mid trib?
post trib???
Are you a wrath vs trib type of position???
These modern terminologies are complex.
So really nobody is on the same page due to all the definitions.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually I never stated it. Jesus stated it, and I merely quoted what He said, which is written in black and white in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

So you are way off. Your arguing with Christ about whether He will gather His elect before or after the tribulation (which is the tribulation of the saints throughout the New Testament), is way off.

First read scripture and then quote the scriptures instead of making statements based on your own private interpretations of scripture so that we can quote scripture to show you why you are wrong.

Making statements based solely on your own private interpretations of scripture without quoting any scriptures in support of what you re saying is a bad habit you have, and no one will ever take you seriously while you continue on that trend.

You have been omitting both scripture and facts all along that don't agree with what you're saying.


Nice try but this thread is proof to all who read it of the fact that you're falsely accusing others of what only you have been doing.

Are not examples of the pre-tribulation-rapture-of-the-saints (the only people the tribulation is referring to). They are talking about pre- judgment/wrath raptures. Contrary to your false claim, this has been pointed out to you a number of times by a number of post-trib Bible believers.

You have not successfully proved pre-trib from scripture. You don't even try. All you do is repeatedly state what you believe scripture is saying, expressing your own private interpretation and either omitting or simply ignoring all scriptures and facts regarding scripture as you go along.

Anyway, time will tell. I pray to see you being resurrected or raptured with all of us, when the time comes.

we know he comes postrib.
Everyone says so.
The bible says there is a gathering DURING the trib in rev 14
The bible says there is a gathering before the trib in mat 24:38.
I have studied postrib rapture teachers.
2 of which I follow closely( Dr brown and Kent hovind)
I have the unique position of knowing postrib doctrine.
You have yet to calmly and directly address the verses that postribs seem to run from.
It is quite strange how unnerved they get

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually I never stated it. Jesus stated it, and I merely quoted what He said, which is written in black and white in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

So you are way off. Your arguing with Christ about whether He will gather His elect before or after the tribulation (which is the tribulation of the saints throughout the New Testament), is way off.

First read scripture and then quote the scriptures instead of making statements based on your own private interpretations of scripture so that we can quote scripture to show you why you are wrong.

Making statements based solely on your own private interpretations of scripture without quoting any scriptures in support of what you re saying is a bad habit you have, and no one will ever take you seriously while you continue on that trend.

You have been omitting both scripture and facts all along that don't agree with what you're saying.


Nice try but this thread is proof to all who read it of the fact that you're falsely accusing others of what only you have been doing.

Are not examples of the pre-tribulation-rapture-of-the-saints (the only people the tribulation is referring to). They are talking about pre- judgment/wrath raptures. Contrary to your false claim, this has been pointed out to you a number of times by a number of post-trib Bible believers.

You have not successfully proved pre-trib from scripture. You don't even try. All you do is repeatedly state what you believe scripture is saying, expressing your own private interpretation and either omitting or simply ignoring all scriptures and facts regarding scripture as you go along.

Anyway, time will tell. I pray to see you being resurrected or raptured with all of us, when the time comes.

"""You have been omitting both scripture and facts all along that don't agree with what you're saying"""
You are just repeating me.
You don't have verses that you can present to me that I run from.
Instead of just wildly ascribing omission, post your verses and I will gladly address them.
You seem to have such a bad attitude toward me.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Zao quote:
"""Nice try but this thread is proof to all who read it of the fact that you're falsely accusing others of what only you have been doing."""

SMH
the ENTIRE point of this thread is the words of Jesus "before the flood" and the authentication of Jesus as a before judgement return in his same analogy with Lot. ...To irrefutably confirm he ALSO COMES pretrib.
Now if you care to address that calmly, then show me where that is voided out using scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

"""You have been omitting both scripture and facts all along that don't agree with what you're saying."""
Address a verse you think is omitted calmly and directly and I will also address that same verse.

OK. Please address these verses:-

John 16:33; Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14; Revelation 2:21; Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 7:13-15.

 

[Zao is life]

You seem to have such a bad attitude toward me.

Naah, I'm just adjusting my way of speaking to you, to your way of speaking to me, that's all. I take it as friendly argument like friends who know one another well but disagree about something and start sparring verbally, but as friends and not as competitors.

I'll change the way I speak back to you when you use that sort of way with me, if you like.

 

[Zao is life]

Zao quote:
"""Nice try but this thread is proof to all who read it of the fact that you're falsely accusing others of what only you have been doing."""

SMH
the ENTIRE point of this thread is the words of Jesus "before the flood" and the authentication of Jesus as a before judgement return in his same analogy with Lot. ...To irrefutably confirm he ALSO COMES pretrib.
Now if you care to address that calmly, then show me where that is voided out using scripture.

There is no mention of tribulation - no use of what Jesus meant whenever He spoke of tribulation and what the apostles meant whenever they spoke of tribulation - in Jesus' examples of what came immediately before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the flood.

Matthew 24
42 Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of man.
40 Then two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes.

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river Euphrates. And its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the rising of the sun might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!

It's talking about watching because judgment day is at hand, i.e the wrath of God is about to be poured out. It's not talking about tribulation. Tell us which of these verses talking about tribulation are talking about judgment day or the tribulation of the unbelieving world while the bowls of wrath being poured out:

John 16:33; Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14; Revelation 2:21; Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 7:13-15.

Also tell us why you believe that "immediately after the tribulation of those days" in Matthew 24:29 means "immediately before the tribulation of those days".​

 

[Zao is life]

We all know the great multitude came out of the trib and are in heaven during some point of the trib.
We all know that.

No we do not "all know that". That's your own false assumption. No one will be taken out of the trib before the day of the resurrection, when Christ returns - because the trib does not refer to God's wrath being poured out upon the unbelieving world. "The trib" mentioned in scripture - i.e the great tribulation - is the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast, nothing else.

You are so busy defining what trib is and how many times it us in the bible, I can't see what you are getting at.

You are SO confused because you think that the Bible refers to the persecution and affliction of the saints at the hand of the world (and at the hand of the beast at the end of the age) as "tribulation" + the Bible refers to the wrath of God coming upon the world as "The Tribulation".

You are VERY confused because you cannot see that the New Testament makes a very clear and consistent distinction between tribulation/great tribulation, and God's wrath/judgment.

What are you saying???
You are mid trib?
post trib???
Are you a wrath vs trib type of position???
These modern terminologies are complex.

I'm not interested in modern terminologies because your terminology that has you so confused, is modern terminology.

The Bible was written in Greek. It has been translated into almost every language under the sun, including English. The words that are translated into English variously as tribulation, affliction, persecution are ALWAYS talking about the tribulation of believers at the hand of unbelievers, including when the tribulation is described as GREAT tribulation - except twice: Once where we are told that God will repay the world with tribulation when Christ returns, for the tribulation it brought upon the saints, and when Paul says there will be tribulation and affliction on all who do evil.

Likewise The words translated as wrath (and talking about God's wrath coming upon the world in judgment in the day of wrath) are NEVER talking about tribulation (because tribulation is always talking about what the saints endure in the world at the hands of unbelievers and the beast at the end of the age.

Your modern terminology calls wrath "tribulation", and the wrath of God being poured out upon the world, your modern terminology calls "The Trib", and it has you TOTALLY confused. Read Revelation 16 and about the seven bowls of WRATH and see if that chapter ever uses the world tribulation.

So really nobody is on the same page due to all the definitions.

Exactly - because they use modern terminology just like you do.



The Song of Moses was sung on the other side of the Red Sea, just after the people had been delivered. The day of deliverance was the day of the destruction of Pharoah's armies and kingdom. Same day.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The words " The rapture" originates from a translation of the words translated as "Being caught up" in 1 Thess 4:17 - nowhere else, and no other verse. There is only one rapture day and it's the same as the resurrection day, and it's the same day that Christ returns, which comes immediately after (and ends) the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast:

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No we do not "all know that". That's your own false assumption. No one will be taken out of the trib before the day of the resurrection, when Christ returns - because the trib does not refer to God's wrath being poured out upon the unbelieving world. "The trib" mentioned in scripture - i.e the great tribulation - is the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast, nothing else.

You are SO confused because you think that the Bible refers to the persecution and affliction of the saints at the hand of the world (and at the hand of the beast at the end of the age) as "tribulation" + the Bible refers to the wrath of God coming upon the world as "The Tribulation".

You are VERY confused because you cannot see that the New Testament makes a very clear and consistent distinction between tribulation/great tribulation, and God's wrath/judgment.

I'm not interested in modern terminologies because your terminology that has you so confused, is modern terminology.

The Bible was written in Greek. It has been translated into almost every language under the sun, including English. The words that are translated into English variously as tribulation, affliction, persecution are ALWAYS talking about the tribulation of believers at the hand of unbelievers, including when the tribulation is described as GREAT tribulation - except twice: Once where we are told that God will repay the world with tribulation when Christ returns, for the tribulation it brought upon the saints, and when Paul says there will be tribulation and affliction on all who do evil.

Likewise The words translated as wrath (and talking about God's wrath coming upon the world in judgment in the day of wrath) are NEVER talking about tribulation (because tribulation is always talking about what the saints endure in the world at the hands of unbelievers and the beast at the end of the age.

Your modern terminology calls wrath "tribulation", and the wrath of God being poured out upon the world, your modern terminology calls "The Trib", and it has you TOTALLY confused. Read Revelation 16 and about the seven bowls of WRATH and see if that chapter ever uses the world tribulation.


Exactly - because they use modern terminology just like you do.

View attachment 44512

The Song of Moses was sung on the other side of the Red Sea, just after the people had been delivered. The day of deliverance was the day of the destruction of Pharoah's armies and kingdom. Same day.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The words " The rapture" originates from a translation of the words translated as "Being caught up" in 1 Thess 4:17 - nowhere else, and no other verse. There is only one rapture day and it's the same as the resurrection day, and it's the same day that Christ returns, which comes immediately after (and ends) the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast:

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

As you just posted after the trib angels gather from heaven.
The rapture has Jesus gathering from earth.
Two different comings or gatherings as you pointed out.
I am not hung up on trying to find 4 or 5 meanings for the word tribulation. That is your basis for all end times

My basis is the bride and groom.
The facts of mat 24:38 and rev 14:14 are not addressed in any of your sentences.
Nor can you honestly refute what is written.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No we do not "all know that". That's your own false assumption. No one will be taken out of the trib before the day of the resurrection, when Christ returns - because the trib does not refer to God's wrath being poured out upon the unbelieving world. "The trib" mentioned in scripture - i.e the great tribulation - is the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast, nothing else.

You are SO confused because you think that the Bible refers to the persecution and affliction of the saints at the hand of the world (and at the hand of the beast at the end of the age) as "tribulation" + the Bible refers to the wrath of God coming upon the world as "The Tribulation".

You are VERY confused because you cannot see that the New Testament makes a very clear and consistent distinction between tribulation/great tribulation, and God's wrath/judgment.

I'm not interested in modern terminologies because your terminology that has you so confused, is modern terminology.

The Bible was written in Greek. It has been translated into almost every language under the sun, including English. The words that are translated into English variously as tribulation, affliction, persecution are ALWAYS talking about the tribulation of believers at the hand of unbelievers, including when the tribulation is described as GREAT tribulation - except twice: Once where we are told that God will repay the world with tribulation when Christ returns, for the tribulation it brought upon the saints, and when Paul says there will be tribulation and affliction on all who do evil.

Likewise The words translated as wrath (and talking about God's wrath coming upon the world in judgment in the day of wrath) are NEVER talking about tribulation (because tribulation is always talking about what the saints endure in the world at the hands of unbelievers and the beast at the end of the age.

Your modern terminology calls wrath "tribulation", and the wrath of God being poured out upon the world, your modern terminology calls "The Trib", and it has you TOTALLY confused. Read Revelation 16 and about the seven bowls of WRATH and see if that chapter ever uses the world tribulation.


Exactly - because they use modern terminology just like you do.

View attachment 44512

The Song of Moses was sung on the other side of the Red Sea, just after the people had been delivered. The day of deliverance was the day of the destruction of Pharoah's armies and kingdom. Same day.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The words " The rapture" originates from a translation of the words translated as "Being caught up" in 1 Thess 4:17 - nowhere else, and no other verse. There is only one rapture day and it's the same as the resurrection day, and it's the same day that Christ returns, which comes immediately after (and ends) the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast:

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

quote
"""The words " The rapture" originates from a translation of the words translated as "Being caught up" in 1 Thess 4:17 - nowhere else, and no other verse. There is only one rapture day and it's the same as the resurrection day, and it's the same day that Christ returns, which comes immediately after (and ends) the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast:
29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other"""


1) the AC kills all refusing the mark
2) you have posted angels gathering FROM HEAVEN and call it the rapture.
3) you omit Lot and Noah.

That is WHY you center your doctrine on a definition of a word.
...and why nobody knows what your timeline is.
None of your theories refutes rev14:14, or mat 24:38
Rev 19 is the second coming on white horses.
No doubt you think that is the rapture

 

[rebuilder 454]

No we do not "all know that". That's your own false assumption. No one will be taken out of the trib before the day of the resurrection, when Christ returns - because the trib does not refer to God's wrath being poured out upon the unbelieving world. "The trib" mentioned in scripture - i.e the great tribulation - is the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast, nothing else.

You are SO confused because you think that the Bible refers to the persecution and affliction of the saints at the hand of the world (and at the hand of the beast at the end of the age) as "tribulation" + the Bible refers to the wrath of God coming upon the world as "The Tribulation".

You are VERY confused because you cannot see that the New Testament makes a very clear and consistent distinction between tribulation/great tribulation, and God's wrath/judgment.

I'm not interested in modern terminologies because your terminology that has you so confused, is modern terminology.

The Bible was written in Greek. It has been translated into almost every language under the sun, including English. The words that are translated into English variously as tribulation, affliction, persecution are ALWAYS talking about the tribulation of believers at the hand of unbelievers, including when the tribulation is described as GREAT tribulation - except twice: Once where we are told that God will repay the world with tribulation when Christ returns, for the tribulation it brought upon the saints, and when Paul says there will be tribulation and affliction on all who do evil.

Likewise The words translated as wrath (and talking about God's wrath coming upon the world in judgment in the day of wrath) are NEVER talking about tribulation (because tribulation is always talking about what the saints endure in the world at the hands of unbelievers and the beast at the end of the age.

Your modern terminology calls wrath "tribulation", and the wrath of God being poured out upon the world, your modern terminology calls "The Trib", and it has you TOTALLY confused. Read Revelation 16 and about the seven bowls of WRATH and see if that chapter ever uses the world tribulation.


Exactly - because they use modern terminology just like you do.

View attachment 44512

The Song of Moses was sung on the other side of the Red Sea, just after the people had been delivered. The day of deliverance was the day of the destruction of Pharoah's armies and kingdom. Same day.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The words " The rapture" originates from a translation of the words translated as "Being caught up" in 1 Thess 4:17 - nowhere else, and no other verse. There is only one rapture day and it's the same as the resurrection day, and it's the same day that Christ returns, which comes immediately after (and ends) the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast:

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

mat 24 :29-31 is also rev 19. The second coming in war, judgement, and power.

No matter how hard you stretch it, rev 14:14 can not POSSIBLY be the same thing.
Nor can mat 24:38 be mat 24:29.
Will not work.
That one you can not change.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are acting as if any old "fact" establishes the principle you wish to base on that fact? This has not been proven, that the fact of Noah gathering his family inside the ark *before the Flood* means that the Church will be gathered up before Armageddon!

That's like my saying, "Yesterday I came inside my house before it rained, and that proves the Church will be brought to heaven before Christ's coming in judgment." How can my coming inside before a rain relate to Christ's deliverance of the Church from judgment?

Sometimes God protects people, and at other times He causes His saints to be martyrs! Nothing is proven by those who are protected! At one point in Samson's life God protected him from judgment. At another point in Samson's life God allowed him to die a martyr.

You rightly pointed out that Jesus compared his 2nd Coming to the Flood of Noah. But you aren't showing the proper comparison that Jesus was making between the two! He did *not* speak of the gathering of Noah's family *before* the Flood as an indication God's People will be gathered to heaven *before* his Coming.

On the contrary, Jesus identified his Coming as the very event at which two things will happen simultaneously: He will come to Judge the world, and he will come to gather his people. There is no gathering *before* his Coming. There is no gathering *before* judgment.

You are building a theological system off of non-explicit statements. You should build theology based on explicit biblical statements. Does the Bible state that the Church will be gathered *before* Armageddon? No. Nowhere does the Bible state, explicitly, that the Church will be caught up to heaven *before* the 2nd Coming.

On the contrary, it is explicitly said that Jesus' 2nd Coming will be to gather his people. So his people cannot be gathered up *before* his Coming.

Furthermore, Dan 7 makes it very clear in the only history in the Bible (apart from Revelation) that details eschatological development the Son of Man will come to deliver his people from the Antichrist. The deliverance of the saints is simultaneous with the establishment of God's Kingdom when the Son of Man comes down from heaven.

2 Thes 2 makes the clear assertion that we must *not* accept any sense of the Kingdom of God's inception, nor the deliverance of the Church, until the Antichrist is actually destroyed at Christ's Coming. How you cannot see this is unfathomable to me were it not for the fact that an entire generation of Christians in the US have been influenced by John Darby, Edward Irving, and the Scofield Reference Bible.

It's time we get back to the Bible, and leave out Bible notes that contradict what the Bible actually says! What the Bible says about Noah's Flood is that this wicked world will be judged in the same way that the Flood destroyed a wicked civilization. This is all Jesus was saying, that he will come to bring about this judgment against the wicked world. His Coming is made to be simultaneous with this judgment against the world, and the gathering of the Church is made to be simultaneous with his Coming--not preliminary to it.

In other words, the account of Jesus' Coming and its comparison with the Flood aligns the gathering of the Church with the actual *Coming of Christ,* and not with some preliminary event. And the focus is on the judgment of the world at his Coming, and on the wickedness in the world preliminary to that judgment.

You are absolutely twisting the story, emphasizing things that the account did *not* emphasize or even say! Instead of emphasizing the wickedness of the world preliminary to the judgment, which actually precipitates the judgment, you are emphasizing a supposed "gathering of the Church" before that judgment.

As I said, the gathering of the Church is explicitly aligned with the actual Coming of Christ, and not before. Shame on you for corrupting the word of God!

LOL
THE LOT analogy ..ahem..that you left out was made by Jesus as a parallel and authenticates a pre judgement removal.
You really despise it.
How shameful
SMH

 

[Randy Kluth]

LOL
THE LOT analogy ..ahem..that you left out was made by Jesus as a parallel and authenticates a pre judgement removal.
You really despise it.
How shameful
SMH

You laugh, but the Lot analogy is saying the same thing that the Noah analogy did, namely that the wicked state of the world is what precipitates judgment. Instead, you emphasize something that Jesus does not use as a parallel, namely that the rescue of Lot indicates a preliminary deliverance of the Church *before* that judgment. Shame on you for adding to the word of God!

In both cases, the Flood and Lot, the deliverance of the Church is equated with the deliverance of the Church *at* the moment of judgment when Christ returns. That is, the gathering of the Church, is associated with Christ's Coming itself, and not with some preliminary event.

Obviously, Noah's deliverance and Lot's deliverance fit their own circumstances, but the comparison is made that deliverance will take place according to the particular context of each crisis. As the Flood took place, and as the fire broke out in Sodom, so Christ's Coming will bring judgment upon the whole world.

But unlike Noah, Christ will not deliver his people via an ark, prepared in advance. Rather, the Church will have been prepared through centuries of Christian evangelism.

And unlike Lot, Christ will not deliver his people by removing them from the corrupt city. Rather, the Church will escape the world by Christian sanctification, by "coming out from among them."

You should draw proper parallels, rather than confuse the different contexts for deliverance. Clearly, in the gathering of the Church, this deliverance takes place *at the Coming of Christ.*

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

[Zao is life]

quote
"""The words " The rapture" originates from a translation of the words translated as "Being caught up" in 1 Thess 4:17 - nowhere else, and no other verse. There is only one rapture day and it's the same as the resurrection day, and it's the same day that Christ returns, which comes immediately after (and ends) the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast:
29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other"""


1) the AC kills all refusing the mark
2) you have posted angels gathering FROM HEAVEN and call it the rapture.
3) you omit Lot and Noah.

That is WHY you center your doctrine on a definition of a word.
...and why nobody knows what your timeline is.
None of your theories refutes rev14:14, or mat 24:38
Rev 19 is the second coming on white horses.
No doubt you think that is the rapture

First, before Tim La Haye and others began to call the coming wrath/judgment of God "The Tribulation", Bible scholars always understood that tribulation is always talking about what is being experienced by the saints in the world.

Once Tim La Haye and others developed the habit of falsely calling the coming of God's wrath/judgment upon the world "The Tribulation", their terminology spread rapidly in many churches, so that within a generation no one taught by them understood the difference anymore between the tribulation of the saints and the wrath of God, teaching a false eschatology in the process, and confusing many (such as yourself).

"At that time" [tóte] in the following verses is referring to the time of the end, the sign of His coming and of the end of the age that the apostles asked for:

Matthew 24
9 At that time [tóte] shall they deliver you up to tribulation [thlîpsis], and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and at that time [tóte] shall the end come.

15 When all of you therefore [oûn] shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand)
16 at that time [tóte] let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

21 For at that time [tóte] shall be great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

29 Immediately after the tribulation [thlîpsis] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And at that time [tóte] shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpázō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The word "harpazo" (caught up) is also translated as "rapture".

NO ONE REMAINS ON THE EARTH WHEN THE FINAL BOWL OF THE WRATH OF GOD IS POURED OUT AND THE WORLD AND THE BEAST ARE JUDGED - JUST LIKE NO ISRAELITES REMAINED IN THE SEA WHEN PHARAOH'S ARMIES WERE DROWNED.

What do you think the words "the rapture" are referring to, if not to the saints being caught up before the final bowl of wrath (the judgment of the beast and his armies at Armageddon) is poured out?

Where were the saints till this occurs?

In exactly the same way that the Israelites were still in Egypt and being afflicted by Pharaoah while the plagues were being poured out upon Egypt, but escaped through the very sea that Pharaoh's armies were judged in, so the saints remain in the world and are being afflicted by the beast until the day of the resurrection/rapture - and the same day is when the 7th trumpet sounds and the final bowl of wrath (last of the seven plagues) is poured out.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

They came out of the great tribulation that they had been in and gone through while they were being afflicted by Pharaoh the beast.

How?

Those who had already fallen asleep in Christ will rise first, and then those who are still alive and remain will be caught up (raptured) together with them, to meet the Lord in the air, just like the scripture says:

29 Immediately after the tribulation [thlîpsis] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And at that time [tóte] shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The great tribulation ends, and the wrath/judgment of God comes upon the beast at that point - because "The Tribulation"/Great Tribulation is referring to the affliction of the saints at the hand of the beast.

Matthew 24:38 is not talking about BELIEVERS/THE SAINTS.

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of man.

NOAH KNEW PERFECTLY WELL THE FLOOD WAS COMING. IT'S NOT REFERRING TO BELIEVERS WHO WERE IN THE ARK:

3 Also take of the fowls of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For in seven more days I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights. And I will destroy from off the face of the earth every living thing that I have made.
5 And Noah did according to all that the LORD commanded him.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened up.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In this same day, Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark. -- Genesis 7

The account does not tell us whether Noah was going in and out of the ark for seven days while he was driving in animals of every kind, or whether he somehow managed to drive the animals into the ark all on the 7th day, but what the account DOES tell us is that Noah was not caught unawares - as you imply Jesus' references to the flood in Matthew 24:38 and to Lot imply.

Lot also knew what was coming. He was not caught unawares, either.

It's very to difficult to understand why you seem to think that Jesus' reference to the unbelievers in Noah's day and in Lot's day being caught totally unawares, somehow refers to the saints being caught totally unaware of what is going on, and of the fact that the return of Christ is near.

Why do you think He repeatedly told us all to watch?

How can saints who are hiding when all are being killed for refusal to worship the beast be unaware of the judgment that's coming and the resurrection and rapture that will come immediately before the final bowl of wrath?
​

You have not proved anything you have asserted in your OP. Jesus was not implying that Noah and Lot were totally unaware of what was about to come upon the world/Sodom & Gomorrah. He was talking about unbelievers being caught unaware. The Two Witnesses will also be making all the saints totally aware, that we can be assured of.

Once you understand the difference between the (great) tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast and the wrath/judgment of God, maybe then your confusion will lift. I pray that it will, for your sake.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No we do not "all know that". That's your own false assumption. No one will be taken out of the trib before the day of the resurrection, when Christ returns - because the trib does not refer to God's wrath being poured out upon the unbelieving world. "The trib" mentioned in scripture - i.e the great tribulation - is the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast, nothing else.

You are SO confused because you think that the Bible refers to the persecution and affliction of the saints at the hand of the world (and at the hand of the beast at the end of the age) as "tribulation" + the Bible refers to the wrath of God coming upon the world as "The Tribulation".

You are VERY confused because you cannot see that the New Testament makes a very clear and consistent distinction between tribulation/great tribulation, and God's wrath/judgment.

I'm not interested in modern terminologies because your terminology that has you so confused, is modern terminology.

The Bible was written in Greek. It has been translated into almost every language under the sun, including English. The words that are translated into English variously as tribulation, affliction, persecution are ALWAYS talking about the tribulation of believers at the hand of unbelievers, including when the tribulation is described as GREAT tribulation - except twice: Once where we are told that God will repay the world with tribulation when Christ returns, for the tribulation it brought upon the saints, and when Paul says there will be tribulation and affliction on all who do evil.

Likewise The words translated as wrath (and talking about God's wrath coming upon the world in judgment in the day of wrath) are NEVER talking about tribulation (because tribulation is always talking about what the saints endure in the world at the hands of unbelievers and the beast at the end of the age.

Your modern terminology calls wrath "tribulation", and the wrath of God being poured out upon the world, your modern terminology calls "The Trib", and it has you TOTALLY confused. Read Revelation 16 and about the seven bowls of WRATH and see if that chapter ever uses the world tribulation.


Exactly - because they use modern terminology just like you do.

View attachment 44512

The Song of Moses was sung on the other side of the Red Sea, just after the people had been delivered. The day of deliverance was the day of the destruction of Pharoah's armies and kingdom. Same day.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The words " The rapture" originates from a translation of the words translated as "Being caught up" in 1 Thess 4:17 - nowhere else, and no other verse. There is only one rapture day and it's the same as the resurrection day, and it's the same day that Christ returns, which comes immediately after (and ends) the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast:

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Moses represents the first coming
...Joshua the second coming.
I don't know your timeline
You keep posting where angels gather the elect from heaven and I suppose you are trying to transpose that on to the rapture????

 

[rebuilder 454]

You laugh, but the Lot analogy is saying the same thing that the Noah analogy did, namely that the wicked state of the world is what precipitates judgment. Instead, you emphasize something that Jesus does not use as a parallel, namely that the rescue of Lot indicates a preliminary deliverance of the Church *before* that judgment. Shame on you for adding to the word of God!

In both cases, the Flood and Lot, the deliverance of the Church is equated with the deliverance of the Church *at* the moment of judgment when Christ returns. That is, the gathering of the Church, is associated with Christ's Coming itself, and not with some preliminary event.

Obviously, Noah's deliverance and Lot's deliverance fit their own circumstances, but the comparison is made that deliverance will take place according to the particular context of each crisis. As the Flood took place, and as the fire broke out in Sodom, so Christ's Coming will bring judgment upon the whole world.

But unlike Noah, Christ will not deliver his people via an ark, prepared in advance. Rather, the Church will have been prepared through centuries of Christian evangelism.

And unlike Lot, Christ will not deliver his people by removing them from the corrupt city. Rather, the Church will escape the world by Christian sanctification, by "coming out from among them."

You should draw proper parallels, rather than confuse the different contexts for deliverance. Clearly, in the gathering of the Church, this deliverance takes place *at the Coming of Christ.*

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

no, there is no shame in the facts of Lot or Noah, you may find shame in Gods word but I am not the slightest moved by your little shame dynamic.
Yes we all see there is a falling away before the rapture.
And as you pointed out we will see him revealed PRETRIB.
You accurately say "revealed", which is one thing you got correct.
The timeline is not modified in the pretrib rapture model. We BOTH AGREE the AC is revealed first.
It could be for a day or 3 days , then the rapture.
But pretrib none the less.

Quote
"""And unlike Lot, Christ will not deliver his people by removing them from the corrupt city. Rather, the Church will escape the world by Christian sanctification, by "coming out from among them."""

The WORD OF GOD says this ,INSTEAD of your "commentary"
Like 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Nothing of Lot staying in that location and just being "Spiritually separated"
Nothing art all.
In fact we "could" apply you theory in the precedeing peacetime before the angels came and delivered him forcefully.
But that was ...AS THE BIBLE SAYS ...peacetime.
Normal life and activities.
So no, maybe try another anti bible theory.
I will again return to the Word and easily see the bible refute you.

Maybe re read this also.
Pay attention to the setting ,which destroys your theory.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Amazing that all that is before the flood setting.
Your postrib model is after the flood setting

 

[rebuilder 454]

First, before Tim La Haye and others began to call the coming wrath/judgment of God "The Tribulation", Bible scholars always understood that tribulation is always talking about what is being experienced by the saints in the world.

Once Tim La Haye and others developed the habit of falsely calling the coming of God's wrath/judgment upon the world "The Tribulation", their terminology spread rapidly in many churches, so that within a generation no one taught by them understood the difference anymore between the tribulation of the saints and the wrath of God, teaching a false eschatology in the process, and confusing many (such as yourself).

"At that time" [tóte] in the following verses is referring to the time of the end, the sign of His coming and of the end of the age that the apostles asked for:

Matthew 24
9 At that time [tóte] shall they deliver you up to tribulation [thlîpsis], and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and at that time [tóte] shall the end come.

15 When all of you therefore [oûn] shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand)
16 at that time [tóte] let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

21 For at that time [tóte] shall be great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

29 Immediately after the tribulation [thlîpsis] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And at that time [tóte] shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpázō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The word "harpazo" (caught up) is also translated as "rapture".

NO ONE REMAINS ON THE EARTH WHEN THE FINAL BOWL OF THE WRATH OF GOD IS POURED OUT AND THE WORLD AND THE BEAST ARE JUDGED - JUST LIKE NO ISRAELITES REMAINED IN THE SEA WHEN PHARAOH'S ARMIES WERE DROWNED.

What do you think the words "the rapture" are referring to, if not to the saints being caught up before the final bowl of wrath (the judgment of the beast and his armies at Armageddon) is poured out?

Where were the saints till this occurs?

In exactly the same way that the Israelites were still in Egypt and being afflicted by Pharaoah while the plagues were being poured out upon Egypt, but escaped through the very sea that Pharaoh's armies were judged in, so the saints remain in the world and are being afflicted by the beast until the day of the resurrection/rapture - and the same day is when the 7th trumpet sounds and the final bowl of wrath (last of the seven plagues) is poured out.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

They came out of the great tribulation that they had been in and gone through while they were being afflicted by Pharaoh the beast.

How?

Those who had already fallen asleep in Christ will rise first, and then those who are still alive and remain will be caught up (raptured) together with them, to meet the Lord in the air, just like the scripture says:

29 Immediately after the tribulation [thlîpsis] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And at that time [tóte] shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The great tribulation ends, and the wrath/judgment of God comes upon the beast at that point - because "The Tribulation"/Great Tribulation is referring to the affliction of the saints at the hand of the beast.

Matthew 24:38 is not talking about BELIEVERS/THE SAINTS.

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of man.

NOAH KNEW PERFECTLY WELL THE FLOOD WAS COMING. IT'S NOT REFERRING TO BELIEVERS WHO WERE IN THE ARK:

3 Also take of the fowls of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For in seven more days I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights. And I will destroy from off the face of the earth every living thing that I have made.
5 And Noah did according to all that the LORD commanded him.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened up.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In this same day, Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark. -- Genesis 7

The account does not tell us whether Noah was going in and out of the ark for seven days while he was driving in animals of every kind, or whether he somehow managed to drive the animals into the ark all on the 7th day, but what the account DOES tell us is that Noah was not caught unawares - as you imply Jesus' references to the flood in Matthew 24:38 and to Lot imply.

Lot also knew what was coming. He was not caught unawares, either.

It's very to difficult to understand why you seem to think that Jesus' reference to the unbelievers in Noah's day and in Lot's day being caught totally unawares, somehow refers to the saints being caught totally unaware of what is going on, and of the fact that the return of Christ is near.

Why do you think He repeatedly told us all to watch?

How can saints who are hiding when all are being killed for refusal to worship the beast be unaware of the judgment that's coming and the resurrection and rapture that will come immediately before the final bowl of wrath?
​

You have not proved anything you have asserted in your OP. Jesus was not implying that Noah and Lot were totally unaware of what was about to come upon the world/Sodom & Gomorrah. He was talking about unbelievers being caught unaware. The Two Witnesses will also be making all the saints totally aware, that we can be assured of.

Once you understand the difference between the (great) tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast and the wrath/judgment of God, maybe then your confusion will lift. I pray that it will, for your sake.

None of that changes the fact they both are prejudgment dynamics.
We all see that the wicked were present.
So nothing there in what ever you think you proved.
All the components are STILL THERE
You can try and add to it, or remove an item.
I will just bring you back to the facts.
Anytime I see lahaye, invoked, I know they are outta gas.
Psssst...that idea that nobody was pretrib in ancient times was debunked thoroughly YEARS AGO.
Irenaeus wrote a book "Against Heresies" , in the timeline you invoke.
Do you ascribe to all the heresies of the ancient dead church fathers?
You act like they are deities and ANYTHING They believed has to be true???
Really????

Quote
"""It's very to difficult to understand why you seem to think that Jesus' reference to the unbelievers in Noah's day and in Lot's day being caught totally unawares, somehow refers to the saints being caught totally unaware of what is going on, and of the fact that the return of Christ is near.""""
Noah was aware
Lot may have been, but it appears he was not.
All 10 of the virgins were aware.
The saints or should I say the remnant or wise virgins are aware

I think you are not understanding before the flood or before lot was removed.
Peacetime vividly depicted.
Both dealt with concerning a placement, a removal to another location...PREJUDGEMENT.
Then we see "...in that day one taken, the other left behind."
Pretrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

First, before Tim La Haye and others began to call the coming wrath/judgment of God "The Tribulation", Bible scholars always understood that tribulation is always talking about what is being experienced by the saints in the world.

Once Tim La Haye and others developed the habit of falsely calling the coming of God's wrath/judgment upon the world "The Tribulation", their terminology spread rapidly in many churches, so that within a generation no one taught by them understood the difference anymore between the tribulation of the saints and the wrath of God, teaching a false eschatology in the process, and confusing many (such as yourself).

"At that time" [tóte] in the following verses is referring to the time of the end, the sign of His coming and of the end of the age that the apostles asked for:

Matthew 24
9 At that time [tóte] shall they deliver you up to tribulation [thlîpsis], and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and at that time [tóte] shall the end come.

15 When all of you therefore [oûn] shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand)
16 at that time [tóte] let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

21 For at that time [tóte] shall be great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

29 Immediately after the tribulation [thlîpsis] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And at that time [tóte] shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpázō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The word "harpazo" (caught up) is also translated as "rapture".

NO ONE REMAINS ON THE EARTH WHEN THE FINAL BOWL OF THE WRATH OF GOD IS POURED OUT AND THE WORLD AND THE BEAST ARE JUDGED - JUST LIKE NO ISRAELITES REMAINED IN THE SEA WHEN PHARAOH'S ARMIES WERE DROWNED.

What do you think the words "the rapture" are referring to, if not to the saints being caught up before the final bowl of wrath (the judgment of the beast and his armies at Armageddon) is poured out?

Where were the saints till this occurs?

In exactly the same way that the Israelites were still in Egypt and being afflicted by Pharaoah while the plagues were being poured out upon Egypt, but escaped through the very sea that Pharaoh's armies were judged in, so the saints remain in the world and are being afflicted by the beast until the day of the resurrection/rapture - and the same day is when the 7th trumpet sounds and the final bowl of wrath (last of the seven plagues) is poured out.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

They came out of the great tribulation that they had been in and gone through while they were being afflicted by Pharaoh the beast.

How?

Those who had already fallen asleep in Christ will rise first, and then those who are still alive and remain will be caught up (raptured) together with them, to meet the Lord in the air, just like the scripture says:

29 Immediately after the tribulation [thlîpsis] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And at that time [tóte] shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The great tribulation ends, and the wrath/judgment of God comes upon the beast at that point - because "The Tribulation"/Great Tribulation is referring to the affliction of the saints at the hand of the beast.

Matthew 24:38 is not talking about BELIEVERS/THE SAINTS.

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of man.

NOAH KNEW PERFECTLY WELL THE FLOOD WAS COMING. IT'S NOT REFERRING TO BELIEVERS WHO WERE IN THE ARK:

3 Also take of the fowls of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For in seven more days I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights. And I will destroy from off the face of the earth every living thing that I have made.
5 And Noah did according to all that the LORD commanded him.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened up.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In this same day, Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark. -- Genesis 7

The account does not tell us whether Noah was going in and out of the ark for seven days while he was driving in animals of every kind, or whether he somehow managed to drive the animals into the ark all on the 7th day, but what the account DOES tell us is that Noah was not caught unawares - as you imply Jesus' references to the flood in Matthew 24:38 and to Lot imply.

Lot also knew what was coming. He was not caught unawares, either.

It's very to difficult to understand why you seem to think that Jesus' reference to the unbelievers in Noah's day and in Lot's day being caught totally unawares, somehow refers to the saints being caught totally unaware of what is going on, and of the fact that the return of Christ is near.

Why do you think He repeatedly told us all to watch?

How can saints who are hiding when all are being killed for refusal to worship the beast be unaware of the judgment that's coming and the resurrection and rapture that will come immediately before the final bowl of wrath?
​

You have not proved anything you have asserted in your OP. Jesus was not implying that Noah and Lot were totally unaware of what was about to come upon the world/Sodom & Gomorrah. He was talking about unbelievers being caught unaware. The Two Witnesses will also be making all the saints totally aware, that we can be assured of.

Once you understand the difference between the (great) tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast and the wrath/judgment of God, maybe then your confusion will lift. I pray that it will, for your sake.

"""You have not proved anything you have asserted in your OP. Jesus was not implying that Noah and Lot were totally unaware of what was about to come upon the world/Sodom & Gomorrah. He was talking about unbelievers being caught unaware. The Two Witnesses will also be making all the saints totally aware, that we can be assured of."""
I don't need to "prove" the setting is pre judgement. A six year old can comprehend it.
I don't need to prove Noah is depicted by Jesus as a pre judgment setting because it says right there they were doing normal peacetime activities until the flood came. Noah was already in the ark when the flood came. So a little child can see Noah is used by Jesus as a prejudgment dynamic.
Likewise with lot.
Jesus used him in Luke 17 right alongside Noah. They both are depicted in prejudgment settings.

both go to another location prejudgment.
So I don't need to prove anything I just post the facts that are there and watch you refute the Bible

 

[rebuilder 454]

Before is not before.
Before is after.
It really means after!!!!
Huh????????
Noah is delivered after the flood.
Lot is removed after Sodom burned
Got it!!!!!!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

no, there is no shame in the facts of Lot or Noah, you may find shame in Gods word but I am not the slightest moved by your little shame dynamic.

We disagree. In focusing upon things not in God's word, you ignore what the real focus was. That is distracting others away from the word of God. You change the word of God into your *own word.*

So you just ignore the points? Was the comparison between the Flood/Sodom and Judgment at Christ's Coming about *when* the gathering of the Church would be? Or, was it to show that things would get worse and that the wicked world is what precipitates these great judgments?

As I showed you, it was already understood that the gathering of the Church takes place *at Christ's Coming,* and not before. So that was *not* being compared with *when Lot was taken out of Sodom,* or *when Noah started building the ark.* The deliverance of all 3 occasions from judgment were not comparing when the righteous were gathered relative to the judgment, but rather, the fact that the righteous will be distinguished from the wicked in these judgments.

Yes we all see there is a falling away before the rapture.

Yes, the Antichristian movement has been here from the time of ancient Rome, and has picked up steam in modern times when Enlightenment Philosophy began to seriously poison Christian Europe. And now, it is overtaking European Christianity entirely, leaving a rather small remnant of faithful Christians. This is the "falling away" that will result in the appearance of Antichrist himself.

Christ's Coming takes place to *destroy him.* That is explicitly being said in 2 Thes 2, which is a confirmation of what Daniel showed in Dan 7. The Kingdom comes when the Son of Man is revealed from heaven to destroy the Little Horn/the Antichrist.

And as you pointed out we will see him revealed PRETRIB.

I did not point out that we will see the Antichrist Pretrib. I view the "Great Tribulation" as defined by Jesus in Luke 21, which is the NT Jewish Diaspora. That has been happening all through NT history, namely the exile of the Jewish People. It is the greatest punishment the Jewish People have ever had to suffer.

The Antichrist comes towards the end of this long period, just as Israel is beginning to regather as a nation--Eze 36-37. The reign of Antichrist, commonly called "the Great Tribulation" is mis-named. His revelation includes a 3.5 year period of uncontested reign on earth, controlling a political base in Europe, the former home of Christianity.

At the end of this period, I think he will lose his base in the world, with nations of the East opposing him in the Middle East. And Christ will come to unleash great judgment, a global nuclear war. Christ's actual appearance takes place at some point in the midst of this war, I believe.

You accurately say "revealed", which is one thing you got correct.
The timeline is not modified in the pretrib rapture model. We BOTH AGREE the AC is revealed first.
It could be for a day or 3 days , then the rapture.
But pretrib none the less.

Sorry, read and memorize 2 Thes 2. I did--that's what made me a confirmed Postrib.

Quote
"""And unlike Lot, Christ will not deliver his people by removing them from the corrupt city. Rather, the Church will escape the world by Christian sanctification, by "coming out from among them."""

The WORD OF GOD says this ,INSTEAD of your "commentary"
Like 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Nothing of Lot staying in that location and just being "Spiritually separated"

"Remember Lot's wife." What do you think that spoke to regarding "separation from wicked Sodom?" You say this is "nothing" about being spiritually separated??????

Maybe re read this also.
Pay attention to the setting ,which destroys your theory.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Amazing that all that is before the flood setting.
Your postrib model is after the flood setting

You've missed the point. Each context had its own sequence of events, which was *not* the point. To confuse Lot coming out of Sodom with Christians facing a nuclear judgment at Christ's Coming is a mistake that is not at point here. Obviously, they each had their own context and arrangement.

The spiritual points that Christ was making in this comparison had to do with our need to stand against universal wickedness--a lonely walk that the Christian must yield to. The world gets worse and the Christian has to hold his ground.

The deliverance from Sodom is different for Lot than it will be for Christians who are delivered at Christ's Coming. But the spiritual lesson is the same. That is what you're getting away from.

You're focusing on the timing of these varied events, which are being compared for their spiritual lessons. You're turning it into an argument for Pretrib, which is explicitly condemned in 2 Thes 2 by the Apostle Paul!