Being Born Again, Is A Change In Body Not In Mind

[bro.tan]

Lets continue the lesson, brothers and sisters. Take a look at these next verses.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Paul simply means bring this sinful body under control and then you will be led by the word of God. As long as you follow the word of God you are considered a son or daughter of God. This spirit is simply the word of God, not that you are a spirit being.

After reading these verses you will see as Solomon says it is a time for everything. Take a look at what Paul is saying.

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Our bodies must be changed and this will not take place until the first resurrection. This is why Paul makes these statements. We ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. He did say waiting correct? Even Job was aware of this. Take a look.

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

 

[bro.tan]

Lets continue, but first lets start at ....


Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Our bodies must be changed and this will not take place until the first resurrection. This is why Paul makes these statements. We ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. He did say waiting correct? Even Job was aware of this.

Take a look.

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Take a look at Philippians and you will see Job and Paul are on the same page.
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Now we know we must be changed physically, let's see when this will take place what type of body we will have and why. Paul will show you this in I Corinthians the 15th chapter. Take a close look and you will understand why the Lord said in John chapter 3 flesh and blood can not see the kingdom of God.

Pay close attention, Paul will repeat himself several times.

I Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Why would Paul mention the dead being raised?

I Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Look at verse 50, notice what it says "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". Remembers Jesus said something similar to this in John chapter 3. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. This is the Fathers Kingdom, which Jesus spoke of. During the Lord's thousand-year reign with the saint, flesh and blood beings will still be on the earth along with spirit beings. There will be only spirit beings after the second resurrection.

Remember what Nicodemus asked the Lord? He asked Him, " how could a man be born again when he was already old?" And the Lord answered by saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

In order for you to be born again you must be changed into a spiritual body.

 

[bro.tan]

Now read this next verse and you will understand what Jesus was saying.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This time hasn't came to pass as of yet. You must be a spirit being to worship the Father. Now, you should understand the statement Paul made in I Corinthians chapter 15, "Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.” Let's go to one last set of verses.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Take a look at the 9th verse, "shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? God the Father is the father of spirits, and in order for you to worship Him you must be a spirit. No one has been born again except the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which is the Lord from heaven, Jesus.

Read the book for yourself and don’t allow someone to kill you. Meaning the second death which is the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone were there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Remember the next life is forever, this one (meaning the flesh) is temporary.

May the Lord add a blessing to the reading of His word, in Jesus name. Amen

 

[veteran]

We must not forget this...

2 Cor 5:14-21
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him Which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
(KJV)

Gal 6:14-15
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
(KJV)

The idea of the "new creature" (actually creation per Greek ktsis), has... already begun in part. And that part is about a change within to our spirit, even while still in flesh bodies during this present world. The redemption of our body Paul spoke of is about the change from our corruptible bodies to incorruptable spiritual bodies at Christ's second coming. That part is still waiting today, and won't happen until Christ's return when this present world age will pass away.

Our Lord Jesus contrasted this present new creature change when He showed how the blind scribes and Pharisees who were yet alive in the flesh, but were like whited sepulcres that are full of dead men's bones inside. He was pointing to their still spiritually dead spirit inside their flesh. But those who have believed on Christ Jesus and His resurrection are not still dead inside with their spirit, but have already become "a new creature" like Paul says. That is a literal regeneration, but not to the body, but to our soul and spirit inside our body. That's also why Christ taught those who die in Him don't go into condemnation, but now pass from death unto life (John 5).

 

[bro.tan]

We must not forget this...

2 Cor 5:14-21
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him Which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
(KJV)

Gal 6:14-15
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
(KJV)

The idea of the "new creature" (actually creation per Greek ktsis), has... already begun in part. And that part is about a change within to our spirit, even while still in flesh bodies during this present world. The redemption of our body Paul spoke of is about the change from our corruptible bodies to incorruptable spiritual bodies at Christ's second coming. That part is still waiting today, and won't happen until Christ's return when this present world age will pass away.

Our Lord Jesus contrasted this present new creature change when He showed how the blind scribes and Pharisees who were yet alive in the flesh, but were like whited sepulcres that are full of dead men's bones inside. He was pointing to their still spiritually dead spirit inside their flesh. But those who have believed on Christ Jesus and His resurrection are not still dead inside with their spirit, but have already become "a new creature" like Paul says. That is a literal regeneration, but not to the body, but to our soul and spirit inside our body. That's also why Christ taught those who die in Him don't go into condemnation, but now pass from death unto life (John 5).

I understand what you are saying, and I want to point out something. Jesus said in Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. So to become a new creature, such things have to take place such the as baptismIn order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus. Then you start to become a new creature, walking in newness a life.

 

[veteran]

I understand what you are saying, and I want to point out something. Jesus said in Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. So to become a new creature, such things have to take place such the as baptismIn order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus. Then you start to become a new creature, walking in newness a life.

It's still much more simple, because the malefactor crucified with our Lord Jesus that believed obviously didn't have a chnce to 'prove' his worthiness, yet Christ told him he'd be with Him in Paradise that day. So it's not by becoming worthy. It's not by following God's law, but by being justified by Faith on The Saviour Jesus Christ, believing as Abraham did. It is then that The Holy Spirit will begin to show the new believer how to live if followed, and as they increase in understanding by staying in God's Word thereafter. It's not about being perfect, but being accounted as perfect through Christ's Blood shed on the cross for sin. What Paul taught in Galatians, especially in chapter 3, is very important, and along with the Book of Romans is the foundation of Christian doctrine.

 

[bro.tan]

It's still much more simple, because the malefactor crucified with our Lord Jesus that believed obviously didn't have a chnce to 'prove' his worthiness, yet Christ told him he'd be with Him in Paradise that day. So it's not by becoming worthy. It's not by following God's law, but by being justified by Faith on The Saviour Jesus Christ, believing as Abraham did. It is then that The Holy Spirit will begin to show the new believer how to live if followed, and as they increase in understanding by staying in God's Word thereafter. It's not about being perfect, but being accounted as perfect through Christ's Blood shed on the cross for sin. What Paul taught in Galatians, especially in chapter 3, is very important, and along with the Book of Romans is the foundation of Christian doctrine.

Well, I understand what you are saying, but its much more then that. Now, I can teach you, using the Bible from Genesis to Revelation to understand these things much better, but if you fill you are right, and you need know teaching, then I also understand that as well. So its up to you, but I'm going to stick with my first post on the matter.

 

[veteran]

Well, I understand what you are saying, but its much more then that. Now, I can teach you, using the Bible from Genesis to Revelation to understand these things much better, but if you fill you are right, and you need know teaching, then I also understand that as well. So its up to you, but I'm going to stick with my first post on the matter.

All I'm saying brother, is that we all dwell in a state of sin even when we first decided to believe on Christ Jesus as The Saviour. The 'walk' with Him begins at that point when we first believe, even while we are yet sinners and breakers of God's law. If we could change our lives first and get a handle on sin before coming to Christ, how many would actually seek Christ? Because we are all sinners, and all have been concluded under sin (except Christ Jesus), that is why we all need Christ Jesus. That's Paul's Message in Galatians 3. It is not about a method we must first reach to prepare ourselves worthy first, because none are worthy. That's why Christ's Salvation is by Grace (unmerited favour) and not by the law, nor of our own works, but of the righteousness accounted by Faith. It is after that step that we are to have works to show that Faith.

 

[bro.tan]

All I'm saying brother, is that we all dwell in a state of sin even when we first decided to believe on Christ Jesus as The Saviour. The 'walk' with Him begins at that point when we first believe, even while we are yet sinners and breakers of God's law. If we could change our lives first and get a handle on sin before coming to Christ, how many would actually seek Christ? Because we are all sinners, and all have been concluded under sin (except Christ Jesus), that is why we all need Christ Jesus. That's Paul's Message in Galatians 3. It is not about a method we must first reach to prepare ourselves worthy first, because none are worthy. That's why Christ's Salvation is by Grace (unmerited favour) and not by the law, nor of our own works, but of the righteousness accounted by Faith. It is after that step that we are to have works to show that Faith.

I see that you got your mind made up and that, you are going to stick with what you believe. I don't disagree with everything you said, but I can see that theres much more to understand and knowledge, that need to be address to this kind of converstaion. I understand that doctrine, and its not correct, bro.

 

[Vengle53]

If you are a JW then you have a correct understanding of Galatians 1:15 and know that it is as Paul also describes at 1 Corinthian 15:8; which also corresponds to the two women Paul speaks of at Galatians chapter 4. But you fail to see that Paul is there talking about the spiritual born again experience that is necessary in order to be able to discern the kingdom of God. You are seeing too superficially.



[quote name= bro.tan]Notice verse 3, except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. We have just learned something here. If you are not born again you can not see the kingdom of God. As we go further you will understand this. Remember there is a time for everything.

[/quote]



“see” <G1492> eido -- a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent 3700 and 3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know: KJV -- be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.

Verse 3 says nothing about literally entering the kingdom of God. But it can of course be assumed that if a person cannot see or become aware of the kingdom of God then neither can they enter into it, whether as an earthly subject of that kingdom or a heavenly part of it. And that is why Jesus also goes onto state in verse 5, John 3:5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”



“enter” <G1525> eiserchomai -- from 1519 and 2064; to enter (literally or figuratively): KJV -- X arise, come (in, into), enter in(-to), go in (through).

[quote name= bro.tan]John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



Notice He made a difference between flesh and spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



Notice He compared the wind to a spirit. Can you see the wind? No! We have seen things being blown around by the wind, but we have never seen the wind. If you are born of the spirit you are like the wind. This is when you are truly born again, when you are born of the spirit.

bro.tan,

[/quote]

Let me reword for you what Jesus said there: “You marvel that I say you must be born again because I speak in spirit which to you in the flesh is like the wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell where it comes from, and where it is going. So is every one that is born of the Spirit [to your fleshly eyes and ears].” And among this fleshly world indeed that is how we are.

The focus in verses 7 and 8 is Nicodemus’s marveling. That is what Jesus is addressing. But the way you are looking at it you have Jesus talking about something to make him marvel even more and not assisting Nicodemus with his marveling.

 

[Vengle53]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in what way?

This simple statement merely says that entrance into the kingdom of God is not passed genetically.

Entrance into the kingdom of God only comes through God’s choosing of us.

 

[Disciple]

It is a change of mind and a change of life, like the fleshly birth you were born of the flesh taking on characeristics of the flesh, being born of the Spirit you take on characteristics of God your Father and his Son Jesus Christ, Paul says 'walk in newness of life' and 'they that are in Christ are new creatures, old things are passed away, ALL things are created new.'

 

[veteran]

I still think the matter is very simple when interpreted within the context of the rest of God's Word.

Our Lord Jesus made a distinction between flesh and spirit in that Scripture, referring to the idea of being born TWO ways...

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

Like Watchman_2 says, the "born again" phrase does mean born from above. Most here simple don't understand what physical birth he's talking about.

There is also a requirement of our 'spirit' being born again too though. That's the part about the wind our Lord Jesus was showing, in contrast to the "image of the earthy" type bodies we now have.

The "flesh and blood" Paul was speaking about in 1 Cor.15 is about the "image of the earthy" type bodies we now have. That type body must be changed, which is what the redemption at Christ's coming is also about. But the renewing of The Holy Spirit Paul spoke of in Titus 3:5 is about the renewing of our 'spirit' by The Holy Spirit, which is that part about the wind.

It's only after the future "last trump" change and resurrection that we will literally be like Jesus' body and see Him as He is according to John in 1 John 3:2.

 

[Vengle53]

I still think the matter is very simple when interpreted within the context of the rest of God's Word.

Our Lord Jesus made a distinction between flesh and spirit in that Scripture, referring to the idea of being born TWO ways...

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

Born of water and spirit are both necessary together in order to be able to enter the kingdom.

Born of water: This is not water of a physical woman's womb and it is not the physical act of water baptism. It is: John 4:10,14 It is: Ephesians 5:26

This washing in the water of the word requires the holy spirit to be accomplished.

Only that way can one enter the kingdom of God.

Do not render it complicated by over reasoning it with human intelligence. Listen to the Word.

 

[Vengle53]

Born of water and spirit are both necessary together in order to be able to enter the kingdom.

Born of water: This is not water of a physical woman's womb and it is not the physical act of water baptism. It is: John 4:10,14 It is: Ephesians 5:26

This washing in the water of the word requires the holy spirit to be accomplished.

Only that way can one enter the kingdom of God.

Do not render it complicated by over reasoning it with human intelligence. Listen to the Word.

I am not guessing. I do not need to guess.

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;"

 

[bro.tan]

I am not guessing. I do not need to guess.

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;"

If that verse means, what I think you think it means, then it will be no need for a lake of fire! In Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.cb(20,13); 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.cb(20,14); 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.cb(20,15); 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


That one verse that you quote from Paul does not mean that you don't have to keep the law (commandments). Understand that grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. [font="Times New Roman][size="3"][font="Times New Roman][size="3"](1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [/size][/font][/size][/font]Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts

 

[Vengle53]

If that verse means, what I think you think it means, then it will be no need for a lake of fire! In Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.cb(20,13); 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.cb(20,14); 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.cb(20,15); 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


That one verse that you quote from Paul does not mean that you don't have to keep the law (commandments). Understand that grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. [font="Times New Roman][size="3"][font="Times New Roman][size="3"](1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [/size][/font][/size][/font]Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts

You may keep them by letter if you wish. It matters not to me what you do.

As for me, I walk by spirit and will observe them by their spirit.

 

[bro.tan]

You may keep them by letter if you wish. It matters not to me what you do.

As for me, I walk by spirit and will observe them by their spirit.

I understand and you have that choice, in the scriptures its written in Deu.30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;cb(30,16); 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:cb(30,20);

My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.cb(7,2); Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. (Proverbs 7:1,2)