...being justified by grace...

[stunnedbygrace]

John 5:24 disagrees

Except that if we truly do believe Him, we will believe everything He said, not just the part that we like and that is easy. How many people say they trust and believe Him but then prove they dont? For example, they worry about money, their job being lost, retirement. He said not to worry about these things as unbelievers do, and yet we do worry about them, proving we dont believe what He has said about it. But men will say it's okay, this lack of trust in what He said, as long as you believe you will live forever. Can you see the duplicity in all this? It's all geared toward continuing in disobedience rather than learning the obedience of faith/trust.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That is a religious formula you have been taught to believe. God does not demand we believe that Jesus died for them. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. The whole world doesn't need to believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world....for Jesus to die for their sins.

So you have made it very easy for yourself by inventing a false criteria in order to justify yourself for your belief in that formula.
We are actually to put our faith IN Christ...not just what He did.



Half-true. God is merciful and He forgives our sins. But in the end we still reap as we sow. Why do people keep saying the righteousness of Christ? You are confusing the righteousness of God which is by faith...with the righteousness of Christ which is according to His own maturity of actions. Nobody has the righteousness of Christ but He Himself.

Your error is so fundamental that you should do a study on the righteousness of Christ. You will find that you have not understood the gospel. Jesus had His own righteousness.

It's pretty slick when you examine the entire teetering tower. The way God does it is through faith/trust. He counts the man who believes Him as righteous. The leaven is that you only have to believe ONE thing He said, not ALL that He said. This does away with the race we are in.

 

[07-07-07]

So are you saying grace is performance based?

Everybody will be judged/rewarded based on the deeds done in the body. Most it will be everlasting destruction and few (comparatively speaking) everlasting life. God's grace has been misappropriated in this generation to make provisions for those who disobey God but yet still believe. God's definition of belief is acting faith, not idle mental assent. Abraham was justified by his faith that was put into action; this is God's grace.

 

[Waiting on him]

Everybody will be judged/rewarded based on the deeds done in the body. Most it will be everlasting destruction and few (comparatively speaking) everlasting life. God's grace has been misappropriated in this generation to make provisions for those who disobey God but yet still believe. God's definition of belief is acting faith, not idle mental assent. Abraham was justified by his faith that was put into action; this is God's grace.

Some have already been judged.

 

[amadeus]

So are you saying grace is performance based?

Are we getting there yet?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12

 

[amadeus]

So then . . . do you in fact then not believe that Jesus is God incarnate?

Why would you ask such a question of anyone? If the answer really should be, yes, according to what God knows, how would you or I or anyone else know without a revelation from God? If the answer, on the other hand, really should be, no, would not the only source of the correct answer also be God? Do all of us stand in the same place in our knowledge of and walk toward and in God? Cannot a person's heart be right in God without him having the answer you would consider to be the right answer? Is this how God's judges?

A black and white answer to any question a man [including you or me] might ask may exist in the mind of God, but has He given all of those answers [is there more than one?] to any one among men? The answer to this lies in the reason why ultimately only God is able to stand in final judgment for any man. Do we fully understand what Peter meant here?

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" acts 15:10

 

[justbyfaith]

Cannot a person's heart be right in God without him having the answer you would consider to be the right answer?

Jesus said, Unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus said, Unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.

You are quoting his words, but who is He? My point is not about whether or not a person believes that Jesus is God. What you or I read and understand from his words that you quoted may not be seen yet by every person born of God for reasons unbeknownst to us [See Isaiah 55:8-9].

But bringing closer to home consider this...

Natural babies do not understand English when they first break forth into the natural light even though that may be the first natural language of their parents. In time exposed to the conversation of their parents, will they not learn English? But not immediately at birth!

A person can believe that Jesus is He, and maybe even understand what you understand, but is not be able to express it well... or even not at all! Don't be so quick to jump into a judgment against someone who does not understand what you understand about who God is! Leave that judgment where it belongs.

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

 

[justbyfaith]

As soon as someone who is truly born again becomes aware of the doctrine that unless they believe that Jesus is the great I AM, they will die in their sins, they will believe that Jesus is the great I AM.

For the fear of the LORD is never absent from the heart of one who is truly born again.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Reading this thread again and kicking myself for it because I will not have the time to focus as I would like today.

But here is my question: if God counts a man as righteous because he believes God and what He has said, how is that said to be an "imputed" righteousness, or the righteousness of Christ imputed to him?

Keep in mind with my question that I know my trust/faith was a gift.(and that not of yourselves so no man can boast.)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Here is the answer I just got from a very nice young man with a masters in divinity. He said because the law must also be kept to be righteous, and since we can't keep the law, it has to be imputed.

But that can't be right, because abraham was counted righteous before he kept any law...

 

[WalterandDebbie]

You are quoting his words, but who is He? My point is not about whether or not a person believes that Jesus is God. What you or I read and understand from his words that you quoted may not be seen yet by every person born of God for reasons unbeknownst to us [See Isaiah 55:8-9].

But bringing closer to home consider this...

Natural babies do not understand English when they first break forth into the natural light even though that may be the first natural language of their parents. In time exposed to the conversation of their parents, will they not learn English? But not immediately at birth!

A person can believe that Jesus is He, and maybe even understand what you understand, but is not be able to express it well... or even not at all! Don't be so quick to jump into a judgment against someone who does not understand what you understand about who God is! Leave that judgment where it belongs.

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

Amen

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Here is the answer I just got from a very nice young man with a masters in divinity. He said because the law must also be kept to be righteous, and since we can't keep the law, it has to be imputed.

But that can't be right, because abraham was counted righteous before he kept any law...

But this young mans answer then is that God included abraham in the sacrifice that was to come and that is in Roman's, so...I think it answered my question.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Here is the answer I just got from a very nice young man with a masters in divinity. He said because the law must also be kept to be righteous, and since we can't keep the law, it has to be imputed.

But that can't be right, because abraham was counted righteous before he kept any law...

Where ? in what scripture was Abraham counted righteous before he kept any law? or do you mean Gods law?

Love, Walter

 

[justbyfaith]

But here is my question: if God counts a man as righteous because he believes God and what He has said, how is that said to be an "imputed" righteousness, or the righteousness of Christ imputed to him?

In that, he believes that God is able to perform His promises (such as 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6) and that in this Christ's righteousness is leveled to his account...for that it is inevitable that he will eventually walk in the practical righteousness that the Lord wants for him.

Rom 4:20, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Where ? in what scripture was Abraham counted righteous before he kept any law? or do you mean Gods law?

Love, Walter

Where in scripture? Hang on, I'll find it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised!
Roman's 4:10

 

[WalterandDebbie]

But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised!
Roman's 4:10

Yes, ok! I see in its context about: Abraham's Righteousness Apart From Circumcision in verses Romans 4:9-12, but where in the old testament scripture, except where I read in Genesis 17:10 ? thanks.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Genesis 15:6
6 And Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord counted him as righteous because of his faith.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Genesis 15:6
6 And Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord counted him as righteous because of his faith.

Amen, Thanks again will add these to my notes, also Galatians 3:6

Walter