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Featured ...being justified by grace...

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Dec 23, 2019.

  1. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Abraham was justified by faith BEFORE doing any works.

    God is particularly clear on this point.

    Much love!
     
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  2. 07-07-07

    07-07-07 Active Member

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    Wrong. You're confusing idle belief with faith. Abraham obeyed God, unlike today's modern christians. Saul was rejected as King of Israel because he would not obey God. No obedience = Rejected by God.
     
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  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I'm not confusing this, if you please!

    What you call idle belief I would call dead faith which does not save.

    Living saving faith makes us new people who begin to act more and more according to that newness.

    Much love!
     
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  4. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    The shed blood of Jesus on the Cross redeemed all mankind, but all mankind will not be saved - the Cross makes it possible for us to saved, but the Cross alone is not what saves us. The Redemption (the Cross) was unconditional and is therefore universal ... however, our salvation is a different matter - it is conditional and it not universal.
     
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  5. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes that right, you believe.

    God bless
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    We appropriate the blood of the Cross through faith.
     
  7. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    as Esau maybe, sure
    twice the sons of hell you are
    seven worse spirits

    should at least be considered as a possibility i guess
     
  8. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    Not according to James 2:24-26 ...

    - "a man is justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE". In other words, works are necessary for justification - no justification, no salvation.

    - "faith without works is DEAD". The doctrine of "faith alone" is a recipe for DEAD FAITH.
     
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  9. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    Actually, it's through abiding in Christ, which is faith and works - James 2:24-26, Rev 14:12.
     
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  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Works justify only in that they show forth that faith is genuine; which alone justifies. Works justify before man, who cannot see what is invisible (faith).

    Abiding in Christ is through faith alone (drawing up nourishment from the vine); which produces good fruit/works.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  11. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    o you see how wrong one gets. we are justified ion Christ buy the works He has done. The works we do account for nothing, no man will ever be justified by His works for none will be able to stand before God and boast, as Jesus put it

    Joh_10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
     
  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    This is always overstated. It seeks to place people in the seat of God...to make us gods. God (not us) can see the beginning from the end. So then a misreading of this verse points to US thinking we are justified by our beliefs while not doing anything. However even the angel of the Lord didn't SEE that Abraham feared God before the actual sacrifice event...

    "And he said, 'Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me,'" (Gen. 22:12).

    People like to put themselves above angels whereas in this life they see better than we do.And in the above verse the angel is speaking for God Himself...meaning God foresaw the sacrifice. People can't assume they can do that. Hence the reason why so many believers will be rejected on that day...saying Lord, Lord.

    So arrogance and a lack of fear are truly the present iniquity that modern believers must wrestle with. The demonic lies of equality with God have been swallowed by a large portion of they who claim to be saved by their own self-interested beliefs.

    How can these not be deceived?

    The seal of God is that GOD knows they who are His (not us)...and let they who claim to know God depart from iniquity.

    So then people have it backwards. Who is departing from iniquity?

    People go from non-righteous to self-righteous...and then fill up the churches.
     
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  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    This is interesting!

    You have an argument to completely overturn what God so specifically stated.

    It seeks to place people in the seat of God...to make us gods. God (not us) can see the beginning from the end.

    You say "It" seeks to place people . . . "IT" what?

    What seeks to place people in the seat of God? The idea that we are justified by faith and not works?

    You say . . . that Abraham was justified because God saw that he would do works in the future. Now, it is of course true that God knows the future and we do not. Just the same . . . His statement was that Abraham was justified before any of that, not because any of that. But because of his faith.

    So then because God foreknew Abraham, that does not negate the meaning of His Words, that Abraham believed God, and that his believing was reckoned for righteousness, and that this was before, and apart from, any works.

    Of course the same point is made of Jacob and Esau, that God chose Jacob before either had done good or bad. Again, God foreknew both Jacob and Esau, and yet still makes the point that this foreknowledge was not in fact the reason for His choice of Jacob.

    Same as with Abraham.

    You wrote:
    So then a misreading of this verse points to US thinking we are justified by our beliefs while not doing anything.

    But in fact, there is no mis-reading involved, nor do you actually make an argument that the verse is being mis-read. You claim it's mis-read, but the argument you make is to simply recontextualize the verse in an effort to negate the very point it makes.

    Romans 4
    1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
    9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
    10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
    11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
    12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
    13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Not through the Law, but through the righteousness . . . of faith.

    You would have people believe that they are not justified before God until what . . . until they no longer sin?

    This is the same thing that Jesus spoke to the Jews about, tying up heavy burdens for others to bear.

    Indeed . . . if you are born again, your life will show the difference. But that's not what you are talking about, I realize.

    You teach salvation through our good works, but I teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

    Much love!
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  14. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Equality with God?

    So then, in your view, if someone were to believe that God justifies them because of their believing Him, then this means they they are holding themselves as equal with God? That's nonsense. I don't mean that in a disparaging way, just that it does not follow, it's non-sequitor, therefore, makes no sense.

    Or do you mean that if we believe in God, and believe that He has given us rebirth, and that we are eternally saved, then it means that we hold our knowledge as equal to God? As if we have that absolute certainty that our works will be acceptible, and because we will have the good works that we will be saved?

    This is again not the point. We don't have to know in advance that our works will be good, and acceptible to God, so that we will be saved, because it is not our works that save us.

    Let's go back to the passage . . .

    11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    Though they be not circumcised . . .

    Abraham was justified specifically before circumcision to bring clarity to the situation. So that his justification by faith before circumcision is the pattern for those who would follow in his faith, even in those who "be not circumcised". It's not about the circumcision. And by extension it's not about the works.

    Abraham was circumcised having already believed. Having already been justified. And he was justified before being circumcised to give a clear understanding to those who are not even circumcised.

    Let me ask you.

    If someone comes to faith in Jesus, being uncircumcised, do you then tell them they must become physically circumcised? Why or why not?

    Much love!
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  15. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    You’ve just flat-out contradicted James 2:24, which clearly says we are justified “NOT by faith alone”. Denying Scripture is a sure-fire recipe for false doctrine and false Christianity.
    What are you talking about? What does being justified “before man” have to do with anything?
    Do you know what “works” are? If so, please tell me.
    Abiding in Christ means more than simply belief - it requires keeping God’s commandments:
    “If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love” (John 15:9);
    “All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24)

    So if you are no keeping “His commandments”, you are not abiding in Christ. And this is what happens to those who don’t abide in Christ:
    “If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned” (John 15:6).
    So keeping “His commandments” is rather important, I should think.

    Here are a couple of other verses you might find instructive:
    “And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected.” (1John 2:3-4).
    Did you notice that last bit? … a believer who doesn’t keep “His commandments” is a “LIAR, and the TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM”. That’s a heavy warning, if ever there was one.

    But wait, there’s more!
    “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15);
    ”By this we know we love the children of God, when we love God and obey His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” (1John 5:3)
     
  16. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    What happens if faith doesn't produce good fruit/works? You have dead faith, right? In other words, faith alone is dead faith that doesn't save - so salvation requires faith and works, whichever way you look at it.
     
  17. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    What works by Christ are do you mean?
    In that case, why does James 2:24-26 say “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” and “faith without works is dead”?
    It is true that no man will ever be justified by WORKS ALONE. That is a different kettle of fish entirely to FAITH AND WORKS, which James 2:24 says are necessary for justification.

    Incidentally, what are “works”? Do you know?
     
  18. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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  19. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    That’s true - Abraham’ faith was reckoned to him for righteousness, but this doesn’t mean he was justified by FAITH ALONE. James 2:22 says Abraham’s “faith was completed by works”, so Abraham was justified by faith and works, not by faith alone. James 2:24 then says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”. Justification is like Araldite (the glue) - without both ingredients, it’s useless.
    You seem to have missed the point of that passage, which is that WORKS (eg, circumcision or the law) WITHOUT FAITH is useless in the eyes of God, but that faith, on the other hand, is worth a great deal in the eyes of God and is counted to the believer as righteousness. But nowhere does that passage say that FAITH ALONE is all that God requires from us.
    In fact, nowhere in the entire NT does it say we are justified by faith alone - on the contrary, the NT specifically says we are NOT justified by faith alone (James 2:24).
     
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  20. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    No human being can possibly know in this life that they are eternally saved. Mainly because we are not saved until after we die and are judged by Christ, who then grants us that eternal life. So if you know now that you are already assured of eternal life in Heaven, you must be God (or at least have a crystal ball).
    Do you know what “works” are? How would you define “good works”?
    In Gal 5:19-21, Paul warns believers that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God. Works alone won’t save anyone, but sin (which is “works” of the wrong kind) can lead to no salvation.
    How much faith do you need to be saved? And how do you know you have enough faith to be saved?
     
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