Belief a Conscious CHOICE?

[rstrats]

A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If you are one of them perhaps you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. If you think that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron."
and who stores away his gold in a pot at the end of a rainbow, and If ever captured has to grant three wishes to the person who captures him.

So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

 

[THE Gypsy]

A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If you are one of them perhaps you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. If you think that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron."
and who stores away his gold in a pot at the end of a rainbow, and If ever captured has to grant three wishes to the person who captures him.

So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

Using leprechauns as an example is a little difficult for people who are seeking truth. As you said...it's a fairy tale.

The easiest one for me would be Christ himself. When faced with the decision, I made a conscious choice to believe in His existence. And since then, many times I feel like the old Disney cartoons where an angel is on one shoulder and satan is on the other feeding information into each ear but leaving it up to the one being fed to make the choice of how to proceed or what to believe.

Many times it's easy. Other times it requires prayer, listening for God's direction, and a renewing of the mind to follow through.

As far as "instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief"' I'm not certain that's always the way it is. (See above). Sometimes it's not that easy.

Don't know if that answers your question or not but maybe it's a starting point.

 

[HammerStone]

How did you come to believe in air?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi rstrats,

A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

There is a foundation for believing 'things', which Paul lays out in Romans 1, but it depends on the reality of God's revelation of Himself, not on image-ination or other mental high jinks. Without God, 'believing' is one of the steps to self-deception - whether willing or unintended.

Perhaps this is your point?

Paul, in Romans 12:1 and 2, puts forward a reality test for those who would renew their minds away from worldly, towards God's thinking.

There is, also, another moment of conscious choice - which Paul describes in Romans 10:17. The catch 22 with it, is that God knows when we begin to 'hear', and He knows when faith rises in our hearts (minds), and He knows whether we choose to trust Him, or not.

 

[rstrats]

THE Gypsy,
　
re: "Using leprechauns as an example is a little difficult for people who are seeking truth."

I don’t know why. It shouldn’t matter what the issue is if beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them.
　
re: "As far as ‘instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief’ I'm not certain that's always the way it is."

It has to be. You can’t believe that something doesn’t exist AND at the same time believe that the same something does exist. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other.

HammerStone,

re: "How did you become to believe in air?"

Although you don't address your post to anyone, I’ll take a guess that it is intended for me.

To answer your question I would venture a guess that it was most likely engendered by some process occurring in my subconscious mind due to an exposure to outside stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, reflection, experience, etc.

dragonfly,
　
re: " Without God, 'believing' is one of the steps to self-deception - whether willing or unintended.
Perhaps this is your point?"
　
I wasn’t aware that I had a point. I was simply asking a question.

 

[THE Gypsy]

I disagree. However, it is clear by your post you aren't interested in a discussion so I won't bother.

 

[dragonfly]

Hello rstrats,

I have - after writing the following - just noticed that your post is in the Meet Christianity forum. Therefore, please bear with the directness of what I wrote. I will now add explanation of a point in my earlier post, as an EDIT, which I hope will help you to tune in to what we learn from Paul's statement in Romans 10:17, (about faith).

re: "Using leprechauns as an example is a little difficult for people who are seeking truth."

I don’t know why. It shouldn’t matter what the issue is if beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them.

　
re: "As far as ‘instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief’ I'm not certain that's always the way it is."

It has to be. You can’t believe that something doesn’t exist AND at the same time believe that the same something does exist. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other.

Isn't THE Gypsy's point this: that in order for a 'belief' to be worthy of reception into a mind and heart, there must be substance to it?

Truth is the substance, otherwise it is vaccuous. Why adopt belief in a lie or an imagined entity?


To what purpose would one so aspire?

re: " Without God, 'believing' is one of the steps to self-deception - whether willing or unintended.

Perhaps this is your point?"

　
I wasn’t aware that I had a point. I was simply asking a question.

Okay. [EDIT: the following statement had assumed you would 'know' what I was getting at. Please see last EDIT for detail.]


Well, your question was valid while you didn't understand what you were asking, but now you have some answers which are based in truth.

If you study the matter of 'choice' in scripture, you'll come to see it's bounded entirely by truth, and God's insistence that He receive due acknowledgement from us as individuals, so that He may bless us through the options which He has decreed, and only those of His choosing.

Any other choices we make, based upon our desires rather than His, may lead us to eventual destruction.

Nevertheless, you are correct that people make choices on a whim, especially if they think they will benefit from making such alterations to what they 'believe', despite that in so doing, they are establishing their imagination - 'stubbornness' in Hebrew - over real, raw truth.

Here is a conscious choice which all Christians should be capable of making, no matter how it hurts their natural mind:

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.


EDIT:

Here are two places in the New Testament where we can begin to understand the terms which define 'faith'.

Romans 10: '... it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Paul is saying that the word of God (that is, truth) is powerful when it is proclaimed verbally. The hearer of this word of God, as he is listening, experiences the opening of his spiritual ears - the ears of his heart, his inner man - and understands what God is saying to him. At the same time as the understanding of the word, comes also the creation of faith to believe the word. The word itself, being true, has the power to create faith in the hearer.

Paul alludes to this mechanism several times in his epistles, but his statement in Romans 10:17 is the clearest.

I acknowledge that one may be present when the word of God is spoken, and it doesn't have the effect described above, but if the listener is desirous of understanding, the day will come when his dullness to truth has waned, and the word begins to hit home in his heart. It is these moments of hitting home, which God has been waiting for, because it is at these points there is a liberty from one's previous 'belief', to change over into belief in what God is speaking at that moment (or, has spoken over a period of time).

These moments of decision may be stark, or subtle, but the one desiring to know God more assuredly, tends to lay hold of them against all previous hindrances to faith in what has now been consciously acknowledged as 'heard'. Sometimes the decision makes one feel one has lost touch with all previous 'reality', and is launching out into the unknown on an intellectually flimsy raft, while at other times, one is so sure God Himself has spoken, one knows beyond any doubt that to ignore His word would be retrograde.

The point I hope you can pick out here, is that it is the hearing of God's word which frees one from being bound to one's previous understandings. Yes, one can reject the word and the faith which is being brought alive by the power of truth, but one is just as free to accept it fully, and to leave behind one's previous thought-system.

In the following verses, the writer is comparing some who chose to reject the word, with some who received the word:

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For to us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest,

Entering into rest is one of the tests of whether a word is true or not. Belief in a word from God should end any strife.

Nevertheless, there is even after believing, an ongoing battle against the old way of thinking, and the old way of living. But, if we change how we live, so that it actively reflects new belief in new truth, our mind will be renewed according to that truth.

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[FearNot]

Pretty simple really. Before, I did not believe in God. Later, I studied the bible and related resources and eventually came to believe in it. I can't speak for all Christians, but many of us refer to our faith as a "reasonable faith". That means that we have seriously considered the evidence that has been presented to us and have come to the conclusion that it represents the truth of our reality.

Hammerstone asked a great question..."How did you come to believe in air?" Your answer later on is exactly what many of us would say. We have researched the matter and have come to believe in the existance of air. It's the same thing with our Christian faith.

I copied a definition for our mutal future reference.

belief:
1.something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.

2.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.

3.confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.

4.a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

 

[biggandyy]

I can choose to believe in Leprechans the same way I choose to believe the chair I am sitting in will support me; it's a decision.

In the case with the chair, past experience with this chair leads me to a fairly strong belief that it will support me the way it has in the past.

But what about when I encounter a chair I have not sat in? Will it support me as do chairs I have sat in before? I really don't know until I actually sit in it. However, I believe that since it is a chair (of certain size, shape, composition) it will support my sitting.

Now, what if there is a hidden flaw in the chair and when I sit down it collapses? Do we go through life paranoid that every chair we encounter, unless thoroughly examined, will fail? Of course not! That is the belief.

I decide that the chair is adequate to perform it's function, for someone to sit in. Now, does the force of will of my decision influence the chair in any way? Heavens no! The decision is completely one sided, ergo,, belief.

But I have no experience with Leprechans. I can make a decision to believe in them, but the force of my decision will not cause them to leap into existence if they do not exist. Just as the broken chair will not hold me even though I decide it will.

I can believe in god, or in God. I can decide to believe in Him. However, that is mere intellectual ascent to His existence. Simply recognizing He exists does not guarantee a salvific experience. I can not exhert an influence upon God through my decision. He monergisticly saves, even if we have prior belief in Him or have dismissed Him out of hand. Salvation is not up to us, is not contribiuted to by us, nor moved upon by any force of will we can hope to generate. Just as I can't will a broken chair to support me, or will a Leprechan into being, none of us can will ourselves unto Salvation.

Hope that is what you were asking....

 

[7angels]

DRAGONFLY AND BIGGANDY SEEM TO HAVE THE JEST OF IT OR ARE AT LEAST HAVE THE BEST EXPLANATION. sorry about the caps.

A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If you are one of them perhaps you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. If you think that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron."
and who stores away his gold in a pot at the end of a rainbow, and If ever captured has to grant three wishes to the person who captures him.

So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

your question is not a either you can do it all the time or not at all. getting to the place where you can make the choice to believe takes work. as dragonfly said faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. basically what is being said is that if you keep repeating the same thing over in your mind every day sooner or later you will start to believe it. the more you go over it the faster you will start to believe.

you ask if i can believe that leprechauns are real. i can do it very easily because i believe that all thing are possible. could there be creatures in our world that we have never seen? i believe that is possible. but if you are unsure then that is where we start to have problems choosing to believe. if you cannot see a thing as possible then it is almost impossible to believe in it.

sorry but i am not a great teacher or anything so if something does not make sense please feel free to ask questions

God bless

 

[dragonfly]

as dragonfly said faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. basically what is being said is that if you keep repeating the same thing over in your mind every day sooner or later you will start to believe it. the more you go over it the faster you will start to believe.

This is not what I said.

I am specifically making a distinction between two kinds of believing

1) something one wants/desires/lusts/wishes to believe - as in the repetition you (7angels) describe, possibly without regard for truth

and

2) because God Himself has spoken His faith-creating word into one's heart, through listening to THE truth being proclaimed.


After one has come to recognise the voice of God, one can make the kind of choice Andy describes, based on real experience; but more particularly, once one has come to recognise God's word is true, one can make a decision to believe His written word, because it is HIS written word.


rstrats, there is no point whatever in determining to believe untruth. One would be playing into the hands of God's great adversary, the devil - the father of lies. We grow up on his turf, being fed his version of reality. The familiarity of it can be comfortable and comforting, but, it is the broad road to destruction. The narrow way to eternal life is straightening of our souls, our minds, our understanding.

As we come to the knowledge of God Himself, through our reception of His word - which creates and causes believable faith-based-in-truth to rise in our hearts - we begin to see a different kingdom. John 3:3, 5

 

[7angels]

i wish it were as easy as you make it sound. for me it was not so easy. God blesses me greatly and is teaching me faith that can literally move mountains. if faith were as easy as you make it sound then everyone would be living a victorious lifestyle. let me ask anyone that claims they have the faith to move mountains to tell me of just 10 testimonies of what God has done in your life within the last week. show me the power God is using within your life.

faith does not come by logos but by rhema which is the spoken word of God. you can read the word of God as much as you choose and faith will not come. you can argue this all you want but it is scriptural(look up the meanings of the word "word" in the bible). it is not until we get revelation that faith comes. for example have you ever read the word and then as you are reading it a verse just comes alive to you. this is God just bringing more rhema into your life. without rhema you cannot have faith. if just reading the bible(logos) brings faith then the christian community should all have the faith to remove mountains. i know people who read the whole new testament every week but this does not bring them revelation unless God reveals things to them.

like i said before my gift is not being a teacher so if you want clarification on a point just ask.

God bless

 

[dragonfly]

Hi 7angels,

I was not meaning to make it sound 'easy', but it is simple.

i wish it were as easy as you make it sound. for me it was not so easy. God blesses me greatly and is teaching me faith that can literally move mountains. if faith were as easy as you make it sound then everyone would be living a victorious lifestyle. let me ask anyone that claims they have the faith to move mountains to tell me of just 10 testimonies of what God has done in your life within the last week. show me the power God is using within your life.

Victory is about overcoming sin and the world.

It is not about moving mountains, although faith is, as you said in your second paragraph, what I said in my last post: that as the logos is preached, God can speak 'rhema' into the hearer's heart and understanding. Thus faith rises up in the strength of that rhema.

The Christian life is not solely about doing signs or wonders. It is about walking in the Spirit in fellowship with Jesus Christ and God our Father, in the drudgery as well as the glory.

 

[rstrats]

BiffAndyy,

re: "I can choose to believe in Leprechans the same way I choose to believe the chair I am sitting in will support me; it's a decision."


And all I'm seeking is to find someone who can demonstrate such an ability by doing as requested in the OP. So far no one has done that.

 

[Born_Again]

I can answer this!!! My actual job is to catch people in lies. (internal investigator, former police officer) Two things:

1. Its a personality thing. It is entirely possible to convince yourself that something is real or did or did not happen if you tell yourself enough. It's a condition like justifying things to fit your view of the world. If you want it to be that way then, to you, it is that way. I think it has to do with a mental capacity/ maturity issue.

2. This is the big one... Faith, Faith in the unseen. You cant see the wind but by the way of the trees. But you know it's there. How about when you pray and you have a need and in a few days or less, in some way shape of form the prayer is answered.

Really, this is actually apples and oranges.... I guess I don't entirely follow what you are asking. HaHaHa!!

 

[Angelina]

There are a number of things that can sway you toward a belief in something that is by faith.

Firstly, you may have had people you know or family members who have spoken about the existence of such things.

You may have had a personal encounter yourself.

You might find that a whole group of believers exist with life changing stories regarding such encounters.

There may be historical or documented evidence of past existence.

So it's a combination of past encounters, personal experiences, believers whose lives had been changed through similar exchanges and historically documented evidence....

Faith is based on believing something without physical evidence however, physical evidence should only point toward what is already faith based... :huh: so yes, faith is a conscious choice revealed to your heart by the Holy Spirit...you know that you know that you know that it is the truth!

Bless you!

 

[rstrats]

Someone new looking in may be able to demonstrate an ability to consciously choose to engender beliefs by doing as requested in the OP.