Bible alone

[theefaith]

Yes. In verse 5 Jesus is talking about entering the kingdom of God. But in verse 3, he is talking about recognizing the kingdom of God.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

both refer to enter baptism by water and the spirit is the new covenant initiation ritual

 

[theefaith]

No for that is unnecessarily limiting. God chose to limit those he saved through Christ. This does not necessarily translate to Jesus limiting himself through Peter.

Christ and His church are one
The church is necessary for salvation
The apostles continue the work or redemption

 

[GracePeace]

In Romans 8, Paul draws a straight line from "being called" to "being glorified." No one whom God justified will fail to be glorified. Romans 8:28-30

We both agree that those whom God justified, before the cross, were not yet "perfected" but wouldn't you agree that they are now?

New Covenant Justification is a perfect justification, pre-New Covenant justification was an imperfect justification (blood of animals could not remove sins).

 

[GracePeace]

Many believers have incomplete knowledge of the Gospel, as was apparent by their conversation. At the same time though, Jesus raised the subject of being born again immediately after Nicodemus confession of faith.

Even the 12 Apostles didn't understand or believe in a dying and resurrecting Christ, which is the Gospel, so none of them believed what God had kept secret Romans 16 says together with Galatians 3 (until the faith came). Faith in Jesus at that time did not place people "in Christ". "Christ" had not yet been given so as to live through Him. The Last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. That was AFTER His resurrection He was glorified. He is Head of a new race--those who are "in Christ" are "in the Spirit" not "in the flesh". No one is incorporated into Christ the life giving Spirit until that is made available at the advent of the New Covenant.

 

[theefaith]

New Covenant Justification is a perfect justification, pre-New Covenant justification was an imperfect justification (blood of animals could not remove sins).

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[GracePeace]

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

I was talking about "initial justification". I already affirm a coming judgment of works.

 

[theefaith]

I was talking about "initial justification". I already affirm a coming judgment of works.

we are called to suffer for christ

 

[GracePeace]

we are called to suffer for christ

Did I say anything contrary to that?

 

[theefaith]

Did I say anything contrary to that?

Nope it’s all good

 

[CadyandZoe]

New Covenant Justification is a perfect justification, pre-New Covenant justification was an imperfect justification (blood of animals could not remove sins).

Of course, as far as covenants are concerned. But remember, Paul argues that we aren't saved according to a covenant. We are saved based on a promise God made with Abraham 430 years before the Mt. Sinai covenant.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Even the 12 Apostles didn't understand or believe in a dying and resurrecting Christ, which is the Gospel, so none of them believed what God had kept secret Romans 16 says together with Galatians 3 (until the faith came). Faith in Jesus at that time did not place people "in Christ". "Christ" had not yet been given so as to live through Him. The Last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. That was AFTER His resurrection He was glorified. He is Head of a new race--those who are "in Christ" are "in the Spirit" not "in the flesh". No one is incorporated into Christ the life giving Spirit until that is made available at the advent of the New Covenant.

I make a distinction between the means to salvation, and the promise of salvation. The promise of eternal life was given all the way back to Abraham's day. What Abraham and the others didn't know is how God would accomplish this, i.e. death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.

So I agree. The apostles didn't know that the messiah would need to die on a cross. But they did know that God promised them eternal life.

This tension can be seen in the passage concerning the death and resurrection of Lazarus. Notice that Mary and Martha both believe that Lazarus would be raised on the last day. What they didn't know was that Jesus would be instrumental in the process. John 11 "I am the way, the truth and the Life", he says. This would be new information for them.

Jesus proves his point by calling Lazarus out of the grave. In this way, Jesus will call all of his followers out of graves at the last trump.

 

[GracePeace]

Of course, as far as covenants are concerned. But remember, Paul argues that we aren't saved according to a covenant. We are saved based on a promise God made with Abraham 430 years before the Mt. Sinai covenant.

All men of faith--starting at least with Abel Hebrews 11:4, then all the way through history--were "just" but were not "perfect" because they DID NOT partake of the benefits made available through the New Covenant until Christ inaugurated it.

 

[GracePeace]

I make a distinction between the means to salvation, and the promise of salvation. The promise of eternal life was given all the way back to Abraham's day. What Abraham and the others didn't know is how God would accomplish this, i.e. death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.

So I agree. The apostles didn't know that the messiah would need to die on a cross. But they did know that God promised them eternal life.

This tension can be seen in the passage concerning the death and resurrection of Lazarus. Notice that Mary and Martha both believe that Lazarus would be raised on the last day. What they didn't know was that Jesus would be instrumental in the process. John 11 "I am the way, the truth and the Life", he says. This would be new information for them.

Jesus proves his point by calling Lazarus out of the grave. In this way, Jesus will call all of his followers out of graves at the last trump.

My point was that they did not partake of the benefits of the New Covenant until it was made available--and it wasn't available at that time.

 

[theefaith]

Of course, as far as covenants are concerned. But remember, Paul argues that we aren't saved according to a covenant. We are saved based on a promise God made with Abraham 430 years before the Mt. Sinai covenant.

these promises acts 2:38-39 included are only fulfilled in the confines of the new and eternal covenant we enter into communion with God thru Christ in Hos sacraments

 

[CadyandZoe]

All men of faith--starting at least with Abel Hebrews 11:4, then all the way through history--were "just" but were not "perfect" because they DID NOT partake of the benefits made available through the New Covenant until Christ inaugurated it.

Agreed. My point was this. Being "born again" or "born from above", which has always been present in the world, was not part of that perfection.

 

[CadyandZoe]

My point was that they did not partake of the benefits of the New Covenant until it was made available--and it wasn't available at that time.

Where would we go to see that being born again is a benefit of the New Covenant?

 

[CadyandZoe]

these promises acts 2:38-39 included are only fulfilled in the confines of the new and eternal covenant we enter into communion with God thru Christ in Hos sacraments

Peter wasn't talking about "promises" in the plural. His talk involved one promise in particular. That is, Peter was announcing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist had already baptized many of his people for the remission of sins. This was already happening before Pentecost.

No one enters into communion with God through a rite or ritual or sacrament. Psalm 51:17 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise." Those who wish to enter into communion with God must come to him honestly, contrite, and humble. Psalm 32:2 "How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!" In other words, God responds to the penitent individual who has the proper inwardness: contrition, honesty, and faith.

 

[GracePeace]

Where would we go to see that being born again is a benefit of the New Covenant?

Jesus is firstborn among many brethren, firstborn from among the dead, "You are My Son, today I have begotten You." How could people be born again yet not have their sins removed? To be born again means you are In Christ not In Adam and you have been rescued from the bondage to sin. 1) How could they be in Christ without having sins removed? 2) How could they be in Christ, rescued from bondage to Sin's Law Romans 8:2, and yet be under the Tutor Galatians 3, be under Law, whereby sin "masters" them Romans 6:14 and Romans 7:7-25? How did they get in Christ without the faith which had not yet arrived?

John says "whoever believes in Him" could receive the right to become a child of God--how could they believe before He arrived?

Elsewhere, it says "those in darkness saw a great light" and "we had each gone our own way"--are these pictures of people who are born of God? They're in darkness? Those born of God are light aren't they?

 

[theefaith]

Peter wasn't talking about "promises" in the plural. His talk involved one promise in particular. That is, Peter was announcing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist had already baptized many of his people for the remission of sins. This was already happening before Pentecost.

No one enters into communion with God through a rite or ritual or sacrament. Psalm 51:17 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise." Those who wish to enter into communion with God must come to him honestly, contrite, and humble. Psalm 32:2 "How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!" In other words, God responds to the penitent individual who has the proper inwardness: contrition, honesty, and faith.

explain Mk 16:16

 

[CadyandZoe]

explain Mk 16:16

Mark 16:16 is a very brief summary of the gospel. And typical of short summaries, it isn't meant to be an exhaustive report. To get the full picture, one must read other passages of the New Testament to form a complete picture.