Bible Historicity

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epistemaniac

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I should also remind you, Jordan, that the King of England had a "hidden agenda" when he commissioned the King James Version as well, does that make the KJV evil too?blessings,Ken
 

tomwebster

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I believe that if we rely on the Holy Spirit to open the Scripture for us, He can use even the Readers Digest version of Scripture to open our eyes to His Truth. I remember some time ago reading The Living Version and seeing Psalm 32, it said something to me that the KJV hadn't. And it, for me, was the start of a new journey. Everyone, read whatever version you want, asking the Holy Spirit to open the Scriptures to you. Let's not continue arguing about this. There are more important things in this times in which we living.Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Isa 55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Isa 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. (KJV)Isa 55:1 "Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Isa 55:2 Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for that which does not satisfy? Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in rich food. Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David. Isa 55:4 Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples. Isa 55:5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you. Isa 55:6 "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. Isa 55:12 "For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Isa 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress; instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall make a name for the LORD, an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off." (ESV)
 

Jordan

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II Peter 1:20 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.Psalm 116:11 - I said in my haste, All men are liars.Hate to break that up, but men hates God, therefore they will copyright claiming their own. You can't see that men has a hidden agenda.Firstly, I just did on [url="http://www.christianityboard.com/bible-historicity-t9376.html]Page 1[/url] of this very thread.Secondly, I am no KJVO person, but I believe this is the one last before all that corruption from the Modern Version did to God's Words.
Hate to break it to you, but the KJV is copyrighted in the United Kingdom, does that mean that the KJV is evil too, or is it just evil in United Kingdom? "In the United Kingdom, the British Crown holds perpetual Crown copyright to the Authorized Version. Cambridge University Press, Oxford University Press, HarperCollins and the Queen's Printers have the right to produce the Authorized Version." (wikipedia)Second, I am very glad that you are not KJVO, why not let persons like myself alone, and say that versions like the NASB and the ESV are good bible translations? Or do you get to decide which translations are good and which aren't for everybody else? Do you get to decide which translations are "modern" and which aren't? If so, I thought that we had left the Roman Catholic Church and no longer had a Pope
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Could you provide a list of approved versions?blessings,KenWhere am I at? America (USA) or England (UK) Before you go into the copyrights answer this question...On this link...English Standard Version (ESV) removes 16 bible verses, CLICK HERE!Tell me that those verses belongs in the bible or not.(tomwebster;64576)
I believe that if we rely on the Holy Spirit to open the Scripture for us He can use even the Readers Digest version of Scripture to open our eyes to His Truth. I remember some time ago reading The Living Version and seeing Psalm 32, it said something to me that the KJV hadn't. And it, for me, was the start of a new journey. Everyone, read whatever version you want, asking the Holy Spirit to open the Scriptures to you. Let's not continue arguing about this. There are more important things in this times in which we living...
Yes, true, but remember lies are crept in Bible versions as well. Satan is a great copycat. But I had enough anyway. Everybody has a choice to make.
 

tomwebster

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Well, the best bible ever use is the one the uses the Byzantine Texts. The ones that uses the Alexandrian Texts are the ones that clearly hates Christ... So they twist His Words.
Jordan, what is your documentation for this statement?
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (tomwebster;64584)
QUOTE (Jordan;64251)
Well, the best bible ever use is the one the uses the Byzantine Texts. The ones that uses the Alexandrian Texts are the ones that clearly hates Christ... So they twist His Words.
Jordan, what is your documentation for this statement?How about take a very good look at this 15-Pages thread of [url="http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php?showtopic=4008] Evil spirits in Christianity!!!!![/url] cause I don't feel like re-posting stuff.
 

tomwebster

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How about take a very good look at this 15-Pages thread of Evil spirits in Christianity!!!!! cause I don't feel like re-posting stuff.
I'm not going to read all that stuff, I just wondered if you could support your bold statement. Guess you can't. I have a number of books on textual criticism and I have looked at a number of web sites but haven't found a statement like you made. I am not saying your statement is true or false, just want to know where you got it.
 

epistemaniac

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Jordan, I don't care where you are at.... the point is this, if other versions of the bible are "evil" because they are copyrighted, then since the KJV is copyrighted, it is "evil" too. The logic is inescapable. You can't engage in special pleading, just because the KJV is the version of the bible that you prefer. Of course what is really going on is a pride issue. If you cannot admit that you are ever wrong, ever retract a statement, then you are unteachable. However responding to you is profitable for the sake of truth, and for the sake of any lurkers who might be tempted to be deceived by your false man-made teachings and philosophies.Before I tell you why those verses are not in the ESV, why don't you tell me why they are in the KJV...... Remember, just because verses are in the KJV and not in other versions, it does not automatically make the KJV the correct translation, it COULD be that the KJV WRONGLY ADDED those verses. And the word of God is clear that no one is to add to God's word: Revelation 22:18 (KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book". So tell me Jordan, why is it that the KJV has wrongly ADDED words to God's word? blessings,Ken
 

epistemaniac

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Re Matt. 1:25 and the removal of firstborn in the link you gave… well if the NIV was REALLY involved in some conspiracy to make us really ask the question; is Jesus firstborn or not, they failed miserably. Luke 2:7 (NIV) and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.”So much for that flimsy objection. Again the NIV is not “guilty” until proven innocent just because the wording is different from the KJV, this basic, simple, logical error is committed again and again by those arguing for the KJV as the standard by which all other translations must be measured. The fact is, the KJV is NOT that standard, to presuppose it is without any proof or evidence as to why this is the case is circular reasoning at its worst, and is thus not glorifying to God, because God wants us to use our minds properly, and not make these silly elementary mistakes..... .... and the reasons, once again, that translations differ is because the manuscript families that are used in the translation process are different. And if one family does not use prōtotokos in Matt 1:25, and other does, we have to ask why this is the case, and not assume the other side is involved n some evil conspiracy especially when the version being accused of removing "firstborn" from the text of Scripture includes it elsewhere, in parallel passages. And really there is no need to deal with any more of the material put together by “Jag”, he commits the same logical fallacy over and over again, that of assuming that the KJV is the standard and that any version that differs from it is somehow at fault, it can’t be taken seriously as any real objection.Blessings,Ken
 

Jordan

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Ok, that kind of attitude you have points out my point, so I'll just leave the argument alone. And I have no pride issue. All I see here is a lack of Truth... enough already.BTW, Jag is the same person. I am JAG, it's my initial.
 

epistemaniac

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I believe that if we rely on the Holy Spirit to open the Scripture for us, He can use even the Readers Digest version of Scripture to open our eyes to His Truth. I remember some time ago reading The Living Version and seeing Psalm 32, it said something to me that the KJV hadn't. And it, for me, was the start of a new journey. Everyone, read whatever version you want, asking the Holy Spirit to open the Scriptures to you. Let's not continue arguing about this. There are more important things in this times in which we living.Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Isa 55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Isa 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. (KJV)Isa 55:1 "Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Isa 55:2 Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for that which does not satisfy? Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in rich food. Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David. Isa 55:4 Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples. Isa 55:5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you. Isa 55:6 "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. Isa 55:12 "For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Isa 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress; instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall make a name for the LORD, an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off." (ESV)
I totally agree, the Lord has greatly used the KJV, and other versions of the Bible as well.... I don't really care for the NIV, but there is no doubt is has been also greatly used by the sovereign Lord... it just really bothers me that some Christians want to try and put other Christians into bondage by trying to make them do something the Bible itself does not command them to do, namely read only translations that they personally approve of.... the Bible nowhere says "you may read only translations based on the Byzantine manuscript family" or people that make outrageous claims like translations "that uses the Alexandrian Texts are the ones that clearly hates Christ... So they twist His Words."!! These are slanderous false accusations and they should not go unchallenged. Again, I do not care too much for the NIV or the translation philosophy behind it, but I know one thing, if the makers of the translation meant to make one that "clearly hates Christ", they are totally inept and missed their goal so much so that millions upon millions of Christians now read the NIV and have come to be saved by reading it, have grown closer to the Lord by reading it, and have come to bless others in the world due to their convictions being so changed that they started to treat one another in loving ways, just as Christ commanded. Now if this version of the Bible hates Christ, though its difficult to know how a version of the bible can actually hate anything
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, it is the strangest type of hating I have ever seen. A few examples.... not for you personally, just for the point...Ephesians 6:24 (NIV) Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love. Ephesians 3:14-21 (NIV) 14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. 20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. Ephesians 5:1-2 (NIV) 1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. Philippians 2:1-2 (NIV) 1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. etc etc etcSo I feel convicted in my spirit to respond to false charges leveled against the Scriptures, and I certainly mean no offense to you as I do so.... Of course, I fully realize that there is just no reasoning with some people, he is not likely to change, nor am I for that matter, and so the discussion must inevitably end with neither of us changing our position. However, in case there may be others undecided reading these posts, however unlikely that may be at a very small forum like this, I hope that they can see "the other side" represented fairly, since it seems that if I do not take up for them, no one else will. Eventually I will no loner respond to these types of posts, but not until after the false charges are at least responded to, so those undecided can make up their own minds by having a fair sampling of the situation, that is all I am trying to do. Its just like when i witness to Jehovah's witnesses, I may be directly speaking to one "elder" in particular, most usually the older and more outspoken of the two, but I know fully well how entrenched he is and will not likely change, but I talk to him all the same, in hopes that the younger JW who is along for "training" may come to see the holes in JW theology, and come to doubt them and their organization. Jordan, in this case, is kinda like that JW elder. I am just using his response as a foil by which to try and address the objections, nothing is meant personally towards him, per se, though of course I am still, in one sense, responding to him, and hopefully he and others can see that I am having a bit of fun along the way, albeit in a sarcastic way. I do tend to have a sarcastic sense of humor and I hope no one is offended by that.blessings,Ken
 

epistemaniac

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Ok, that kind of attitude you have points out my point, so I'll just leave the argument alone. And I have no pride issue. All I see here is a lack of Truth... enough already.BTW, Jag is the same person. I am JAG, it's my initial.
Jordan, all I am asking is that you PROVE that what you say IS IN FACT truth.... surely you don't expect others to believe/accept that what you are saying is true just because it is YOU saying it.... you certainly would not accept anything I say as true just because I am the one saying it, would you? So, please do not be surprised OR offended just because I am asking that you backup what you are saying, and let me inform you right now, referring people to other posts you have written is NOT that proof..... unless of course that post has something more substantial in it than just more of the same, ie your opinions and places where the KJV might differ from other versions of the Bible. Remember, the only thing such comparisons show is that the versions differ from one another, nothing more.Now I have seen you post your interpretations, and seen your opinions, and you have even included some Scriptures along the way, though you have not defended your interpretations and opinions as to what they mean, you have just asserted that they mean this or that, or apply to a certain situation, and I guess you expect people to treat you like a Pope who's opinion dare not be challenged or something, because, believe it or not, not everyone will see things your way, and just because you say something, it isn't necessarily true. Oh you may think its true, I will grant you that. But people are simply mistaken.... an honest thing to be sure. Hey... I may be the one who is wrong! And so to find out if I am, I offer reasons I think my view is true, and I offer reasons why I think your view is wrong, this is the way communication happens, this is the way people grow and learn. However, if you already know everything, and feel that you don't have to prove anything you say... people had just better believe it and if they don't they are haters of Christ and scripture twisters and the like..... then I guess there is nothing more to learn, is there? And you better go ahead start your own little Jordan cult where people better learn from you, never dare doubt you, and never better ask you to prove that what you are saying is true.... its true because you say its true....In any case, you have not answered my question regarding your assuming that all Scriptures MUST be translated using the Byzantine manuscript family. You say that the Alexandrian manuscript family is wrong (actually you say that it is Christ hating and guilty of scripture twisting, probably responsible for the national debt and Obama getting elected as well), but why..... WHY is it wrong? You offered a link to another post of yours at another site, but how does this answer the question? Simply because it (the Alexandrian manuscript family or the KJV) differs from the Byzantine does not make it automatically wrong. The question of wrongness/rightness goes deeper than a mere superficial comparison of the 2, and saying that one version of the Bible adds or subtracts verses from the Bible does not tell us anything, except that the 2 families of manuscripts are different, and that the KJV is different from many other versions which are not dependent on the same manuscript family.Some of my "interpretations of men", "traditions of men" types of comments are hyperbole Jordan, I do not really mean them, well I mean them in the sense that everyone, including you, is human and interprets and has opinions, this is impossible to avoid... only some one with a direct hotline to God would have no interpretations, no opinions, no mistakes..... and people who think they do have God speaking to them in such a way, such that it is impossible that they can err, usually become cult leaders, or very lonely. I am just using your own accusations against you as when you disagree with someone you think you can dismiss them has merely having the "interpretations and opinions of men", as if saying this removes or negates the fact that you are a man and have interpretations and opinions yourself, and as if your saying this proves in any way that the other person is wrong!!! If nothing else, I hope and pray you get this one concept. Anyway, I have done this in hopes that you might see how flimsy and empty they types of arguments are, so far, I do not think you have gotten the point, hopefully my being this open about it will help, one can only hope. blessings,Ken
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (tomwebster;64587)
QUOTE (Jordan;64586)
How about take a very good look at this 15-Pages thread of Evil spirits in Christianity!!!!! cause I don't feel like re-posting stuff.
I'm not going to read all that stuff, I just wondered if you could support your bold statement. Guess you can't. I have a number of books on textual criticism and I have looked at a number of web sites but haven't found a statement like you made. I am not saying your statement is true or false, just want to know where you got it.Ok, firstly I read the bible and then compare it with my couple other translations and then internet as a second witness...
 

Dad of 3

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I see this post has most definitely gotten away from me. This is one reason I stayed away so long before.
 

epistemaniac

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I know... it s sad.... it would have been nice to have stuck to your very importat topic... be that as it may, I do hope that I have given you some resources to help.....blessings,Ken
 

kiwimac

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There are no "corrupt Alexandrian texts", no diminution of Christ's deity in the NIV, no homosexual on the NIV translation committee and finally no changing of doctrines on the basis of translations.

What there is, is an heretical belief which attempts to make a 17thC English translation of the Bible into a creedal statement, a belief which attempts to arrogate to itself the right to decide that a dated, stilted English translation is the standard by which other English translations should be judged and which casts aspersion on Godly folk doing their part in making God's words available to all people.

Finally, there is a belief which although it has no biblical basis, no scriptural support at all and no basis in history either attempts to define who and who is not a Christian solely on the basis of the English Bible translation that they use.
 

veteran

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Okay, so I have some things to look at and download to better prepare myself.I try to discuss the topic of Mormonism with the faithful with repsect for the person. I don't tell them they're stupid or lame or whatever like some do. I have, in some cases, defended them against that sort of garbage because it's not helpful and it just destroys what little trust they might have in someone outside the cult. Most often, the average member takes any negative light on the church as a personal attack, which it's not. I know Mormons to be kind, generous, and at times, selfless, but that doesn't mean their interpretation of God is correct.Perhaps this is my way of rebelling against my own upbringing or maybe a true call from God; I have no way of knowing, but I'm most certainly passionate (perhaps obsessive?) about it.I'm currently skimming a book called The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, but it doesn't seem to have the concrete facts I'm looking for.On another related point: is the Nicean Conference a reliable standard for having chosen the books that are included in the Bible?


Until you get into study of God's Word His Way, you're just going to be heeding the word of others. That includes authors of books you may read, even though those might have useful information in them. There's no 'end-around' understanding that can come only from God Himself in His Word.

I also recommend at minimum a 1611 KJV Bible and being able to go back into the Bible languages as needed. The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge is another excellent cross-reference tool, as the Englishman's Concordance is also. Those are two tools that cross-reference subjects and help with word usage study within The Bible, they are not commentaries of men. So there's some excellent reference tools available based on 1611 KJV study simply because of how long the KJV has been in print for English speaking peoples. Using later Bible translations lead the Bible student away from a lot of those reference tools.

In Isaiah 28 God showed us how to study His Word. It's to be line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. He revealed there that's how to do it, and that those who won't do it that way will fall backwards and be snared and taken (i.e., in deception).

An example of that being snared is how some treat The Bible like a roulette wheel, waking up in the morning and randomly opening and pointing in their Bible and declaring that verse the one for the day. Another example of that is how some ministers will preach an hour on a single verse while never getting into the flow of the Bible chapter's overall Message. There's no way the Bible student is going to really learn God's Word doing it those ways.

And what is shameful is how most folks have at least 12 years of public education yet they're still Biblically illiterate, not having read the whole Bible nor studied it to any great depth line upon line.