Biblical literalism correlates with anti-science

[StanJ]

I disagree with many of the statements made on here on this issue and several you listed, yes. More importantly, I recognize that there is a lot of gray area on this issue and that everyone should speak to this issue with a great deal of humility and acceptance of others. This is not a hill worth dying on and I am very open to the possibility that my particular take on the issue could be off in varying degrees. I think any Christian who demands everyone believes the world is exactly 6,000 years old or doesn't believe the Bible...or that we KNOW all life came from single celled organisms or you are a foolish fundamentalist who misuses the Bible and opposes science are both in error. This is a debatable matter, and as such, we should approach each other with grace and love...willing to learn and able to disagree without being mean-spirited or arrogant. The most important issue is not how life adapted/evolved through history, but whether or not our lives are currently fully surrendered to Jesus Christ and his word.


As I mentioned above, I also disagree with the approach of the second comment. I am simply asking you to be more balanced. It seems you only see the critical nature in those who take this approach with Genesis, but do not see this type of critical nature on the other side of the aisle. That has been my point all along....both sides are guilty of demonizing the other, not just the "fundamentalists" (although I think this term is horribly misused). Admittedly, I am more accepting of the Christian clinging to their Bible, tooth and nail...even if I disagree with their hermeneutics. I understand their fears and concerns. We live in a culture that has gone from seeing public school and the sciences as a means of exploring and glorifying God to expelling Bibles, divorcing "religious" thought from "secular" life and throwing itself headlong into all kinds of immorality that, 60 years ago, would have been unthinkable. So, yes, I think we should be a little more understanding of those who feel that their families and their faith are being undermined....even if their response and hermeneutics are not always appropriate. Yes, Christians attack science in ways that are ignorant of the real issues. Yet, its also true that schools and professors attack Christianity and undermine students faith on a daily basis. I know. I have attended multiple secular schools, worked with college students for years and have taught at a secular university. I find it despicable that 50 year old professors will attack and undermine the faith of 18 year old students on a regular basis in their classes. Only 25% of Christian college students graduate with their faith. Don't tell me that there is only one side to blame here...and if the question we are asking is: Are professional intellectuals being impeded and undermined by Christians or are Christians being impeded and undermined by professional intellectuals, I think the evidence leans overwhelmingly to the latter.


I am talking about the general tone of your conversations and why I have regularly backed away or refused to engage you in conversation as of late. I don't understand what you are saying here. This is a personal reflection, not referring to a specific instance.

WW...why do you not quote posts properly?

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Some people value loyalty and tribalism over accuracy and objectivity....that's just human nature.

But whatever it is that you do is somehow above human nature?

 

[marksman]

But whatever it is that you do is somehow above human nature?

And of course he forgets that atheists are experts at loyalty and tribalism as evidenced by other discussions I have had where I have asked a basic question about evolution and they have been silent because it is not a question that they are capable of answering as they generally deal only in quotes from the atheists little red book which gives trite responses to serious questions.

Overall, they have no evidence whatsoever for evolution. They just want to put God in his place and make sure he doesn't get any kudos for doing what he did.

 

[BlackManINC]

And of course he forgets that atheists are experts at loyalty and tribalism as evidenced by other discussions I have had where I have asked a basic question about evolution and they have been silent because it is not a question that they are capable of answering as they generally deal only in quotes from the atheists little red book which gives trite responses to serious questions.

Overall, they have no evidence whatsoever for evolution. They just want to put God in his place and make sure he doesn't get any kudos for doing what he did.

And the way they do it is simple, by violating the sovereignty of God over all things by claiming that God didn't finish the work in six days, but that nature had to do the work in billions of years by common ancestry. It is a works based belief that is diametrically opposed to the creation account.

 

[River Jordan]

I disagree with many of the statements made on here on this issue and several you listed, yes. More importantly, I recognize that there is a lot of gray area on this issue and that everyone should speak to this issue with a great deal of humility and acceptance of others.

Good. Does that include not speaking authoritatively about subjects one knows very little about?

I think any Christian who demands everyone believes the world is exactly 6,000 years old or doesn't believe the Bible...or that we KNOW all life came from single celled organisms or you are a foolish fundamentalist who misuses the Bible and opposes science are both in error. This is a debatable matter, and as such, we should approach each other with grace and love...willing to learn and able to disagree without being mean-spirited or arrogant. The most important issue is not how life adapted/evolved through history, but whether or not our lives are currently fully surrendered to Jesus Christ and his word.

I agree.

As I mentioned above, I also disagree with the approach of the second comment.

Good. So you understand that believing in young earth creationism because of how one reads Genesis does not make that person anti-science alone, and that it's only when that person starts making absurd, ignorant arguments against science that the "anti-science" label applies?

I am simply asking you to be more balanced. It seems you only see the critical nature in those who take this approach with Genesis, but do not see this type of critical nature on the other side of the aisle.

You only see me countering the nonsense from creationism because that's what's here. If this were an atheist forum and they were spouting nonsense about science or Christianity, I would counter that. If you really want to see me countering "the other side of the aisle", then invite a more diverse membership.

That has been my point all along....both sides are guilty of demonizing the other, not just the "fundamentalists" (although I think this term is horribly misused). Admittedly, I am more accepting of the Christian clinging to their Bible, tooth and nail...even if I disagree with their hermeneutics. I understand their fears and concerns. We live in a culture that has gone from seeing public school and the sciences as a means of exploring and glorifying God to expelling Bibles, divorcing "religious" thought from "secular" life and throwing itself headlong into all kinds of immorality that, 60 years ago, would have been unthinkable.

Yes, I know the older fundamentalist yearning for the good ol' days when they ran the country and everyone else knew their place. Sorry, but I prefer today.

Yes, Christians attack science in ways that are ignorant of the real issues.

And we see that it's a factor in driving young people out the doors, thus it makes sense to expose these ignorant attacks and try and get people to stop spouting them.

Yet, its also true that schools and professors attack Christianity and undermine students faith on a daily basis. I know. I have attended multiple secular schools, worked with college students for years and have taught at a secular university. I find it despicable that 50 year old professors will attack and undermine the faith of 18 year old students on a regular basis in their classes. Only 25% of Christian college students graduate with their faith. Don't tell me that there is only one side to blame here...and if the question we are asking is: Are professional intellectuals being impeded and undermined by Christians or are Christians being impeded and undermined by professional intellectuals, I think the evidence leans overwhelmingly to the latter.

I agree. That's not good teaching at all. But "they're doing it too" didn't work on my Mom, and for good reason.

I am talking about the general tone of your conversations and why I have regularly backed away or refused to engage you in conversation as of late. I don't understand what you are saying here. This is a personal reflection, not referring to a specific instance.

Wow. Even when you're clearly mistaken as shown by your own words, you can't concede even a single inch to someone like me, can you? Pride sure is a powerful emotion.

 

[River Jordan]

But whatever it is that you do is somehow above human nature?

Nope, never said that at all.

 

[River Jordan]

And of course he forgets that atheists are experts at loyalty and tribalism

And apparently you forget that I'm a woman.

as evidenced by other discussions I have had where I have asked a basic question about evolution and they have been silent because it is not a question that they are capable of answering

What question is that?

Overall, they have no evidence whatsoever for evolution.

Other than the fact that we see it happen....

 

[aspen]

Sounds to me like some behind the scenes collusion took place.

Put down the bs bell, no conspiracy here, just creationist wishful thing

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Nope, never said that at all.

You implied it.

 

[StanJ]

Put down the bs bell, no conspiracy here, just creationist wishful thing

Actually it's proper hermeneutical exegesis Aspen, NOT wishful thinking. The only wish I have is that others would read the scriptures without the influence of so-called evolutionary science dogging their every step, along with the modern peer pressure to feel more inclusive in the world view of things.
1 Peter 2:9 (NIV)

 

[Wormwood]

Good. Does that include not speaking authoritatively about subjects one knows very little about?

Not really. "Little" knowledge is a pretty ambiguous term. I am not in favor if censoring people or not hearing them out just because someone feels they don't possess the proper credentials. It would be like me saying you don't have the ability to comment on the Scriptures or church history because you don't have a theological education. People can study for themselves or quote sources they trust without having a degree in a field. In fact, I have found many here are quite knowledgeable in some areas they have no formal training in.

Good. So you understand that believing in young earth creationism because of how one reads Genesis does not make that person anti-science alone, and that it's only when that person starts making absurd, ignorant arguments against science that the "anti-science" label applies?

This seems odd coming from a person who starts a blog entitled "Biblical literalism correlates with anti-science." By reading many of your comments, one could easily think that you feel anyone who disagree with Darwinian evolution and holds Genesis to be factual in any regard is automatically "anti-science," regardless of their demeanor in the discussion.

You only see me countering the nonsense from creationism because that's what's here. If this were an atheist forum and they were spouting nonsense about science or Christianity, I would counter that. If you really want to see me countering "the other side of the aisle", then invite a more diverse membership.

I'm just saying that this is a "Christian" board that, at times, should provide opportunities to encourage people in their faith. There is enough discouragement out there as it is. Something to think about.

Yes, I know the older fundamentalist yearning for the good ol' days when they ran the country and everyone else knew their place. Sorry, but I prefer today.

Yeah, the good ol' days when people who believed the Bible were not mocked in the university classroom and 1.1 million babies were not killed each year for the sake of convenience. You actually prefer living during a holocaust?

And we see that it's a factor in driving young people out the doors, thus it makes sense to expose these ignorant attacks and try and get people to stop spouting them.

Yeah, I don't think Christians not embracing Darwinism wholeheartedly is a major cause for its decline.

I agree. That's not good teaching at all. But "they're doing it too" didn't work on my Mom, and for good reason

.
Im not trying to justify either. Im just saying its not like its just those dumb ol Christians out there that are uninformed or improper in these discussions...yet listening to you, that is the impression one would get. The whole "you Christians" diatribes from you are a little myopic.

Wow. Even when you're clearly mistaken as shown by your own words, you can't concede even a single inch to someone like me, can you? Pride sure is a powerful emotion.

I honestly don't know what you are talking about.

 

[aspen]

Actually it's proper hermeneutical exegesis Aspen, NOT wishful thinking. The only wish I have is that others would read the scriptures without the influence of so-called evolutionary science dogging their every step, along with the modern peer pressure to feel more inclusive in the world view of things.
1 Peter 2:9 (NIV)

And apparently, you believe it is ok to misquote a scientist in order to prop up the truth. Well, you are in good company with the Discovery Institute and their support of Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. I just wish Christians refused to engage in 'ends justify means' morality

 

[StanJ]

And apparently, you believe it is ok to misquote a scientist in order to prop up the truth. Well, you are in good company with the Discovery Institute and their support of Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. I just wish Christians refused to engage in 'ends justify means' morality

Who did I misquote?

 

[aspen]

Who did I misquote?

I didn't say you misquoted anyone. I was responding to your post, which I assumed was in response to post I wrote that included a link to a scientist that creationists have consistently misquoted for the past twenty years. I assumed that you read the information connected to the link because you responded to the post.

 

[StanJ]

I didn't say you misquoted anyone. I was responding to your post, which I assumed was in response to post I wrote that included a link to a scientist that creationists have consistently misquoted for the past twenty years. I assumed that you read the information connected to the link because you responded to the post.

Sorry, I comment on many posts as I'm on 4 forums. Which post?

 

[aspen]

Sorry, I comment on many posts as I'm on 4 forums. Which post?

#152

 

[StanJ]

Actually I addressed your comment to KJ, not your link. I never looked at that link. Seems you've lost track of your posts or who is talking about what?

 

[aspen]

Actually I addressed your comment to KJ, not your link. I never looked at that link. Seems you've lost track of your posts or who is talking about what?

My mistake, I apologize

 

[marksman]

And the way they do it is simple, by violating the sovereignty of God over all things by claiming that God didn't finish the work in six days, but that nature had to do the work in billions of years by common ancestry. It is a works based belief that is diametrically opposed to the creation account.

In the programme that I referred to, Dawkins claimed that so and so was his great, great, great, great grandfather and a fish was the greatest grandfather to all of us. I wanted to tell him that the only relationship I have to a fish is the one I eat on a regular basis as they are good for my health.

 

[marksman]

And apparently you forget that I'm a woman.


What question is that?


Other than the fact that we see it happen....

An interesting comment. On another forum I asked an atheist why we haven't seem any evolution take place since Darwin told us his theories. His reply was that it is happening you just don't see it happening. So one atheist says you see it happening and another says you don't.

By the way, what evolution have we seen happening since Darwin?