Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[Spiritual Israelite]

Unless the scripture says specifically that Christians are the Israel or the new Israel.......I say non of them say what you are trying to promote. That covers it all. But you right kinda.....If you cannot produce a scripture that specifically says that Christians are the new Israel.....nothing left to discuss.

How about you actually act like an adult and address the scriptures that I posted and tell me how you interpret them? Is that asking too much?

 

[WPM]

How about you actually act like an adult and address the scriptures that I posted and tell me how you interpret them? Is that asking too much?

He has nothing to bring to the table. It is a joke.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hosea 1:10-11 foretold:

the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.​

This is a very powerful, pivotal and enlightening prophecy. It is predicting the ingathering of the Gentiles into the Israel of God. Hosea is looking forward to the new covenant period where the Gentile would enter into covenant relationship with Almighty God and as a result Jewish believers. True Israel is predicted here to grow to a mighty number (as the “sand of the sea”). How would this happen? It would happen by the conversion of countless foreigners who were outside of God’s special covenant of grace with national Israel. It would see countless millions of blinded heathens coming to faith in Israel’s Messiah.

The children of Israel would no longer be limited to ethnic Jews. They would be joined in the camp of Israel with believing Gentiles who would become “the sons of the living God.” This reading confirms: “in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.”

What a transformation! What a turn around. The sons of the living God – true Israel – would now include Jew and Gentiles alike. This occurred with the earthly ministry of Christ. He was indeed the “one head” that was anticipated that all sinners would give their allegiance to. Through the cross, there is no separation between Old Testament saints and New Testament saints. In fact it has been totally demolished because of Calvary.

Hosea 2:23 dovetails with this prediction:

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.​

The Israel of God is expressly shown to not be restricted to the physical earthly nation of Israel or any other physical nation, as of the flesh, but rather to the spiritual seed of Abraham – the spiritual Israel that is born from above. The early disciples were faithful Israel functioned in the covenant promises pertaining to Israel, including extending out the salvation to the nations. The Abrahamic promises, and many other Old Testament prophecies were realized in the advance of the new covenant congregation of God (ekklesia).

Those who were aliens to God’s grace and heathen by nature have been assimilated into God’s Israel and become “the children of the living God.” There is no higher designation that man could possess. The personal titles that are used show us that we are looking at a spiritually regenerated people from the Gentiles who were enemies of God (“not my people”) and are now the people of God.

Paul addresses these Old Testament prophecies in his great election discourse in Romans 9. He applies these to the enlightenment of the Gentiles and their being brought into the New Testament Church. He shows how true Israel has expanded out to embrace countless heathens. In perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy, the Gentiles have been brought into full union and communion with God, on the same basis as Israel’s remnant community, and have become a part of the spiritual seed of Abraham, through faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice.

Paul teaches in Romans 9:22-26,

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee (Hosea 2:23), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God (Hosea 1:10).​

Paul uses Hosea to show how God's heart has always been to expand His mercy and adopt those who were alienated, bringing both Jews and Gentiles together into one spiritual body of believers. Central to Paul’s “remnant” theology teaching is the integration of the Gentiles into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how a large influx of Gentiles would come into the covenant family. True Israel has expanded far and wide. The spiritual blessings and promises that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been imparted to the Gentiles by faith. Paul reinforces his argument by applying old covenant promises and Israeli terminologies to the new covenant international assembly.

The overwhelmingly Gentile Church is now:

1. The “children of the living God.”
2. His “beloved” possession.
3. And are intimately known by God as “my people.”

The passages that Paul references here demonstrates that the Gentiles have been integrated into the camp of Israel. Israel has expanded, as Abraham was promised back in Genesis, to incorporate converted Gentiles from all nations since the cross.

As G. E. Ladd writes, “the people of the Messiah are the true people of God, continuous with the Israel of the Old Testament.”

At anytime in history Jews have not made up more than 2.1% of the world population.
But after all that, I am still waiting for the scripture that says specifically that Christianity is the new Israel.
Great scriptures but nothing to do with Christianity being the New Israel.

 

[WPM]

At anytime in history Jews have not made up more than 2.1% of the world population.
But after all that, I am still waiting for the scripture that says specifically that Christianity is the new Israel.
Great scriptures but nothing to do with Christianity being the New Israel.

You cannot address what the inspired text is teaching. You have ducked around multiple passages that prove we the Church are true Israel, Abraham's seed, spiritual Jews and the real circumcision. You have no rebuttal to one single passage.

Chapter forbids your error. I suspect you know that. That is why you are so frustrated. That is why you have no rebuttal.

You are making a fool of yourself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't ignore them I have read them and have noted over and over again that what you are saying is not in the scriptures you present.....that covers all of them.

It's easy to deny what I'm saying, but how about you tell me how you interpret Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 6:15-16 and/or Ephesians 2:11-22 instead of just being lazy and telling me you disagree. Make the effort to show me why you disagree.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He has nothing to bring to the table. It is a joke.

Just like every other dispensationalist. The next time any dispensationalist actually exegetes any scripture or gives a direct response to one of our points or questions will be the first time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

At anytime in history Jews have not made up more than 2.1% of the world population.
But after all that, I am still waiting for the scripture that says specifically that Christianity is the new Israel.
Great scriptures but nothing to do with Christianity being the New Israel.

How do you interpret these passages...

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

In my view, all of the parts that I highlighted in red refer to Spiritual Israel or what you're calling "New Israel". So, tell me your understanding of these.

 

[Grailhunter]

How about you actually act like an adult and address the scriptures that I posted and tell me how you interpret them? Is that asking too much?

Are these the scriptures you want to discuss?
Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

They are pretty straight forward. The theme is that we have been adopted into the family of God, not a physical or spiritual Israel.

He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, Ephesians 1:5

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Ephesians 2:19

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” Romans 8:14-15

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8:23

To redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Galatians 4:5-6

For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. Galatians 3:26

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, John 1:12

Do you see how someone quotes the truth. I say body of Christ and I post scriptures that speak of the body of Christ. I say we are adopted into the family of God and I post scriptures that talk about us being adopted by God.
You should try it.....

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are these the scriptures you want to discuss?
Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

They are pretty straight forward. The theme is that we have been adopted into the family of God, not a physical or spiritual Israel.

He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, Ephesians 1:5

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Ephesians 2:19

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” Romans 8:14-15

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8:23

To redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Galatians 4:5-6

For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. Galatians 3:26

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, John 1:12

Do you see how someone quotes the truth. I say body of Christ and I post scriptures that speak of the body of Christ. I say we are adopted into the family of God and I post scriptures that talk about us being adopted by God.
You should try it.....

You quoted the scriptures and then proceeded to not address what the scriptures themselves say. Unbelievable.

Show me exactly how you understand Romans 9:6-8. What do you think it means when it says "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" and then follows that up by saying "In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring."?

To me, that is saying there is an Israel of which being part of it is not based on being a physical descendant of the physical nation of Israel or of Abraham, but rather is based on being a child of God and of the promise and being counted as Abraham's seed. What does Galatians 3:26-29 tell us about who are the children of God and of the promise and are counted as Abraham's seed?

 

[Grailhunter]

It's easy to deny what I'm saying, but how about you tell me how you interpret Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 6:15-16 and/or Ephesians 2:11-22 instead of just being lazy and telling me you disagree. Make the effort to show me why you disagree.

It's easy to deny what I'm saying, but how about you tell me how you interpret Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 6:15-16 and/or Ephesians 2:11-22 instead of just being lazy and telling me you disagree. Make the effort to show me why you disagree.

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

It says what it means
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. And again we are the children of God, no mention of Israel.

15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

It says what it means...circumcision nor uncircumcision means the Old Covenant does not apply. We are all adopted into the body of Christ, adopted into the family of God. The actual scripture says "and upon the Israel of God." Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule and upon the Israel of God.
Follow the rule that circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything.

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Basically a longer version of the verses in Galatians.

 

[WPM]

You quoted the scriptures and then proceeded to not address what the scriptures themselves say. Unbelievable.

Show me exactly how you understand Romans 9:6-8. What do you think it means when it says "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" and then follows that up by saying "In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring."?

To me, that is saying there is an Israel of which being part of it is not based on being a physical descendant of the physical nation of Israel or of Abraham, but rather is based on being a child of God and of the promise and being counted as Abraham's seed. What does Galatians 3:26-29 tell us about who are the children of God and of the promise and are counted as Abraham's seed?

Exactly! He's basically saying that the Bible doesn't mean what it says. That is his argument here! That is ridiculous.

 

[WPM]

Are these the scriptures you want to discuss?
Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

They are pretty straight forward. The theme is that we have been adopted into the family of God, not a physical or spiritual Israel.

He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, Ephesians 1:5

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Ephesians 2:19

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” Romans 8:14-15

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8:23

To redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Galatians 4:5-6

For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. Galatians 3:26

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, John 1:12

Do you see how someone quotes the truth. I say body of Christ and I post scriptures that speak of the body of Christ. I say we are adopted into the family of God and I post scriptures that talk about us being adopted by God.
You should try it.....

Ephesians 2 is telling us that we who were once aliens (or far off) from the citizenship of Israel, have now been brought nigh through the blood of Jesus Christ. We are now fellow citizens with the OT elect. There is no other interpretation.

 

[Grailhunter]

Ephesians 2 is telling us that we who were once aliens (or far off) from the citizenship of Israel, have now been brought nigh through the blood of Jesus Christ. We are now fellow citizens with the OT elect. There is no other interpretation.

There is nothing about Christianity being the new Israel that describes Christianity, physically or spiritually. God never offered the Israelites/Jews Heaven. God allowed both kingdoms to be conquered. God allowed for the ten tribes to be enslaved and breed out of existence. God allowed for both Temples to be destroyed. And then most of them did not accept their Messiah. All because of their unfaithfulness. That is not what is going to happen to Christians or Christianity.

It is much more of a blessing to be called the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ. Adopted as children of God in the family of God destined to inherit Heaven.

We are nothing like Israel.

 

[WPM]

There is nothing about Christianity being the new Israel that describes Christianity, physically or spiritually. God never offered the Israelites/Jews Heaven. God allowed both kingdoms to be conquered. God allowed for the ten tribes to be enslaved and breed out of existence. God allowed for both Temples to be destroyed. And then most of them did not accept their Messiah. All because of their unfaithfulness. That is not what is going to happen to Christians or Christianity.

It is much more of a blessing to be called the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ. Adopted as children of God in the family of God destined to inherit Heaven.

We are nothing like Israel.

Do you ever read the rebuttals that people write to refute your error? Obviously not. I showed you that Abraham and the Old Testament Saints had a heavenly hope. They desire to heavenly country not an earthly country. They looked for the New Jerusalem. As is your modus operandi you avoided that. Please address.

 

[Grailhunter]

Do you ever read the rebuttals that people write to refute your error? Obviously not. I showed you that Abraham and the Old Testament Saints had a heavenly hope. They desire to heavenly country not an earthly country. They looked for the New Jerusalem. As is your modus operandi you avoided that. Please address.

Heavenly hope....Well show me where Abraham and the Old Testament saints thought they were going to Heaven.

 

[WPM]

Heavenly hope....Well show me where Abraham and the Old Testament saints thought they were going to Heaven.

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

It would seem right to regard God's future inheritance for Israel as relating to the heavenly abode and the prepared city the New Jerusalem. The Patriarch’s earthly abode in Canaan is depicted here as a temporary sojourn and “a strange country.” This was not Abraham’s eternal abode or was it his true home. Like us, he looked for the New Jerusalem that would last forever. Man’s ultimate hope (whether Old Testament or New Testament) is when Jerusalem from above comes down to the earth to dwell forever.

Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Here, in easily comprehensible language, we see the focus and overriding desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city.

The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the second coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.

Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life.

Whilst earthly Jerusalem may be the hope today of the Christ-rejecting Jew, the heavenly New Jerusalem was the desire of the believing Old Testament saints.

That “place,” which Christ is preparing us, and for which His people are patiently waiting, is identified as an actual city in Hebrews 13:14. Notwithstanding, it is not a physical temporal earthly city sitting in the center of natural Israel, but rather a heavenly eternal city. The passage says, “for here (that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” That city is the New Jerusalem, which Christ is presently preparing. Earthly Jerusalem is clearly with us now, whereas the New Jerusalem in all its glory is still to come!!!

 

[Grailhunter]

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

It would seem right to regard God's future inheritance for Israel as relating to the heavenly abode and the prepared city the New Jerusalem. The Patriarch’s earthly abode in Canaan is depicted here as a temporary sojourn and “a strange country.” This was not Abraham’s eternal abode or was it his true home. Like us, he looked for the New Jerusalem that would last forever. Man’s ultimate hope (whether Old Testament or New Testament) is when Jerusalem from above comes down to the earth to dwell forever.

Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Here, in easily comprehensible language, we see the focus and overriding desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city.

The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the second coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.

Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life.

Whilst earthly Jerusalem may be the hope today of the Christ-rejecting Jew, the heavenly New Jerusalem was the desire of the believing Old Testament saints.

That “place,” which Christ is preparing us, and for which His people are patiently waiting, is identified as an actual city in Hebrews 13:14. Notwithstanding, it is not a physical temporal earthly city sitting in the center of natural Israel, but rather a heavenly eternal city. The passage says, “for here (that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” That city is the New Jerusalem, which Christ is presently preparing. Earthly Jerusalem is clearly with us now, whereas the New Jerusalem in all its glory is still to come!!!

Well lets see if you do not believe me, lets give you another.
Did old testament believers go to heaven?
According to the scriptures, the Old Testament believers didn’t go to heaven, which is the dwelling place of God and the Angels,
God never offered Heaven to those in the Old Testament.
All souls went to sheol....parts of which some refer to as paradise.

13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

But what, when, and where is that city? It is an open question. I do believe that God has not given up on the Jews....But that plan, we do not know for sure.

 

[WPM]

There is nothing about Christianity being the new Israel that describes Christianity, physically or spiritually. God never offered the Israelites/Jews Heaven. God allowed both kingdoms to be conquered. God allowed for the ten tribes to be enslaved and breed out of existence. God allowed for both Temples to be destroyed. And then most of them did not accept their Messiah. All because of their unfaithfulness. That is not what is going to happen to Christians or Christianity.

It is much more of a blessing to be called the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ. Adopted as children of God in the family of God destined to inherit Heaven.

We are nothing like Israel.

People that do not have Jesus Christ are not His chosen. They are of their father the devil.

Favor with God can come only through Jesus Christ. He is heaven’s only means of access to God. Acts 4:12 says, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

This is God’s only way to heaven. Christ is the center-point of salvation. We therefore see that Christ alone is our only way of access to heaven. There is no alternative arrangement pertaining to race or any other distinction. 1 Corinthians 3:11 states, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Of course, Christ is the Rock that the believer stands on. He is the only spiritual foundation for man. Men either build their house upon that Rock or build it upon sand. Sand is self! A house properly built upon the Rock stands firm in the midst of the storm but the house built upon the sand falls apart. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 expressly states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time”

This couldn’t be any clearer! There is no Plan B. There is no back-doors into heaven. There is no alternative salvation. There is no other means of man gaining favor with God! There is no other way to become a child of God. There is no other path to be God’s one of God’s elect.

John the Baptist proclaimed in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

There is nothing vague, ambiguous or complicated here. God only sees those in Christ and those not in Christ. There is also no room for fence-sitting here. If a Jew or Gentile (in the Old Testament or the New Testament) loves the Messiah Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!! Basically: accept Jesus and God accepts you, reject Him and God rejects you.

Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Ok, what does this mean? Simple: those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ, don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are therefore under condemnation and are of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Q. Does Israel overwhelmingly deny “that Jesus is the Christ” or Messiah?

A. Absolutely. Therefore, Judaism without Christ is a counterfeit religion. It is apostate! Any belief that denies Christ His rightful place as man's sole Redeemer is destined for destruction. Anyone that rejects Christ (1) is antichrist, (2) belongs to Satan, (3) is part of the kingdom of darkness and is (4) bound for the Lake of Fire.

1 John 5:12: “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

The teaching of Scripture couldn’t be plainer: Jews who do recognize Christ as Messiah are saved. Jews who do not recognize Christ as Messiah are lost. The only chosen people that God knows and accepts are those that accept His Son. The rest are of their father the devil.

2 John 1:9: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”

If a sinner refuses Christ, he refuses the Father. This couldn’t be clearer in Scripture.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

So, those that reject Jesus, reject salvation. Those that reject Jesus, reject the Father. Those that reject Jesus, are children of the devil. This is seen throughout the inspired New Testament account.

Jesus said in Matthew 11:6: “blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.”

We don’t need to speculate about what natural Israel currently thinks of Christ.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, “He that is not with me is against me.”

There is no neutrality with this Jesus. There is no room for fence-sitting when it comes to Him. You are either for Him or against Him.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. In fact, there is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid and runs completely to the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

 

[WPM]

Well lets see if you do not believe me, lets give you another.
Did old testament believers go to heaven?
According to the scriptures, the Old Testament believers didn’t go to heaven, which is the dwelling place of God and the Angels,
God never offered Heaven to those in the Old Testament.
All souls went to sheol....parts of which some refer to as paradise.

13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

But what, when, and where is that city? It is an open question. I do believe that God has not given up on the Jews....But that plan, we do not know for sure.

How could they go to heaven before Christ defeated death? He is the first resurrection. He is the first to defeat the grave. Once that happened the graves were opened. Hades was emptied. There is only 1 people of God. There always has been. God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. In fact, there is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid and runs completely to the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

The old covenant has been superseded. It will never be resurrected. It is time for you to move out of it into the New.

The NT Church has been united to remnant OT Israel in the true Israel of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

People that do not have Jesus Christ are not His chosen. They are of their father the devil.

So you are saying the Jews' father is the devil.
I know the scriptures that say that Yeshua is the only way.
I am not quoting scripture when I say that I do not believe God has given up on them.