Born Again of the Spirit Is Salvation

[JesusIsFaithful]

Yeah... I know. It should be a known fact among believers everywhere, but it is not.

Tongue speakers are actually speaking against this when they preach receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation in order to get this supernatural tongue that never comes with interpretation, but is assumed to be a prayer language of the Holy Spirit.

That is the falling away from the faith warned about in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter.

Some do preach "another" baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, but for now, the debate is about this apostasy that believers do not have the Holy Spirit at their "salvation"; that they must seek to receive the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues to get that promise.

At the link below is John 3rd chapter at Bible Gateway in the KJV;

Bible Gateway passage: John 3 - King James Version

Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about being born again of the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus is answering Nicodemus's question of how this will happen.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So born again of the Spirit is salvation when one believes in Jesus Christ.

But tongue speakers will say otherwise because they are trying to "guess" what that phenomenon was that came over them later on in life as a saved believer that brought tongues which never comes with interpretation, but assumed to be a prayer language of the Holy Ghost... which it is not.

They will not say it so bluntly, but they use scriptural references in the Book of Acts to tell other believers that they do not have the Holy Spirit yet as this is separate from salvation.

One of the passages they use is Acts 19:1-7 in saying how these disciples did not have the Holy Ghost yet, but they are not reading that rightly because they were disciples of John the Baptist's' not disciples of Jesus Christ. Paul had to tell them about Jesus being the One that John the Baptist was preaching about, and then these disciples got water baptized in Jesus's name and received the Holy Ghost after that as saved believers in Jesus Christ.

You can read that plainly in Acts 19:1-7 at this link below;

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 19:1-7 - King James Version

The other reference that tongue speakers try to prove this false teaching by is Acts 8:5-25 at this link below;

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 8:5-25 - King James Version

There was a delay for those believers receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost, but they were not saved until they did. The problem with tongue speakers is that they are not discerning why the delay. Simon's heart was not right with the Lord because he had a gall of bitterness within him as he had thought he could purchase this power from the apostle John & Peter for giving people the Holy Ghost;

Luke went through the trouble of giving the background on those Samaritans & Simon the sorcerer as the Samaritans were "fans" or "followers" by coercion under Simon whom was responsible for afflicting the people with unclean spirits.

Now Philip was coming along, casting out those unclean spirits and healing the lame and so forth while preaching ( due note this ) "the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ". Yes, they got water baptized in Jesus's name but Luke pointed out that they had not received the Holy Spirit yet. Peter & John had to go down there to lay hands on them for them to receive the promise.

Why? The people were being fans of Philip now instead of Simon and thinking all these things were happening by Philip and not from the Lord. Simon saw Peter & John laying hands and he, too, was not seeing this as coming from the Lord. That was why the Holy Ghost had to come through Peter & John because the people were being too much of a fan of Philip to not see the Lord working in their lives.

As the Father was being patient with these believers and even Simon, they were not saved yet until they had lifted their eyes to the Lord Jesus Christ above in receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost. They were not born again of the Spirit & thus saved until they did.

So no matter what the tongue speakers tell you about receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with evidence of tongues, that is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that is why that tongue never comes with interpretation, because that phenomenon is not of Him.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So no matter what the tongue speakers tell you about receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with evidence of tongues, that is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that is why that tongue never comes with interpretation, because that phenomenon is not of Him.

In my opinion, based off of the pattern of mankind, the objective in "receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with evidence of tongues" has to do with taking something that is completely in Gods control, and bringing it under mans control. There is a delay. The one receiving salvation has to be spiritual enough before they can receive. They must let go, loose the tongue and receive or they are a hindrance. And if they don't receive this "separate from salvation evidence of tongues" ...then they have done something wrong. Go back and try it again! See. Under mans control.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

In my opinion, based off of the pattern of mankind, the objective in "receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with evidence of tongues" has to do with taking something that is completely in Gods control, and bringing it under mans control. There is a delay. The one receiving salvation has to be spiritual enough before they can receive. They must let go, loose the tongue and receive or they are a hindrance. And if they don't receive this "separate from salvation evidence of tongues" ...then they have done something wrong. Go back and try it again! See. Under mans control.

1 Corinthians 14:22 cites that tongues were not to serve as a sign for believers; thus tongues was never to serve as proof or a sign that they had received the Holy Spirit at their salvation.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Just as in Acts 2nd chapter, the promise was received after water baptism for the Jewish believers in that moment; and in Acts 10th chapter, the Gentile believers had received the promise of the Holy Spirit before water baptism, so is being born of the Spirit as Jesus described it as no one knows when it is coming or going as the wind blows when one is born again, but this happens when one believes in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:14 cites that the promise of the Spirit is received by faith in Jesus Christ; not by sight. It is not at water baptism or before water baptism or by a sign of tongues; by faith in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise......18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. ( Not a sign of tongues )

It was unfortunate that the Samaritans were heeding Simon with infamous fanfare as a regarded following until Philip came along...

Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.12 But when they believed Philip.........

They were giving fearful regards to Simon until Philip came along when they had begun giving joyful regards to Philip; hence the gall of bitterness rising out of Simon. That was why the Lord had to send John & Peter down there to lay hands on them for these people to receive the Holy Ghost so that they may lift the people's sights higher to the Lord Jesus Christ to get their eyes off of Philip. This had to be done even for Simon.

Romans 8:9 states firmly that any one not having the Spirit of Christ is none of His and so tongue speakers need to wake up and recognize that what they are preaching about has nothing to do with salvation when it is to come with the evidence of tongues. They are preaching another gospel when they preach this to those that are already believers in Jesus Christ; not to unbelievers.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Tongue speakers need to realize that this phenomenon that happens later on in life of a saved believer is not of Him at all.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

They should seek the face of the living risen Christ rather than a vistation by spirits bringing tongues and other signs of confusion where believers fall down & other crazy things due to lack of self control which the Lord is not the author of since temperance ( self control ) is a fruit of the Spirit.

This is why that tongues is not God's gift of tongues for speaking unto the people but babbling nonsense. They need to stop chasing after seducing spirits for signs and return to their first love in resting in Him that they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ when they had first believed in the gospel. They need the Lord Jesus Christ's help at that throne of grace to shun vain & profane babbling and pray normally to give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for answer to known prayers that they had prayed for.

Thank you for sharing, but further clarity is needed here.

 

[Helen]

Just saying...If you do not "speak in tongues" yourself , how do you know what is or what isn't? That is a bit like telling someone who can see, that they really can't .
There actually is NO hard and fast rule. My uncle spoke in tongues the same time as he was born again. I myself did not get set free in this until four years after salvation. God does what he likes, when He likes, to whom He like.
Just as we get Him neatly in His box, He breaks the box.
Plus you are slightly confused ...the language God gives us to use in worship and intercession does not need any interpretation ...because we are usually alone.
Interpretation of tongues is only needed in a meeting when someone with a "Gift of tongues" utters a message that needs an interpretation. Two different thing. Not everyone has " the gift of tongues " , not everyone has Inturpretation of tongues, not everyone has the gift of prophesy etc etc...but all born again believers can flow in the heavenly language given by God in the Spirit.

 

[DPMartin]

heavenly language given by God in the Spirit.

the heavenly language is Truth and Life giving Healing and Merciful call to repentance unto the Lord Jesus. not some garble that hath no understanding for those who hear.


Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

its not some ones own witness of themselves to others their born again status. God is thy witness, and He is the One who makes it clear to the others He is with someone. and how "speaking in tongues" is exercised today is not how its done. its done as it was done in the case of the Apostle on Pentecost.

God doesn't speak gibberish, men do, therefore all who hear gibberish, know its not of God. just in case you're in the dark on that one.

 

[Helen]

Each to their own. I respectfully disagree...but it doesn't matter ...as the old saying goes.. “A man with an experience is never at the mercy of an argument.” It's not a field to die on...some things we will agree upon and some we wont! And that is just fine. Each of us stands and falls before his own Master.
( to whom we give account)

In my lunch hour, I was in an open air meeting at "Speakers Corner" in London... when I was about a thousand years younger than I am now. This soap box preacher suddenly spoke out in tongues..a man behind me started calling out to him...it seems the soap box speaker was naming this mans 'open sins' ....not that 'we' who stood there understood, but the hearer behind me understood perfectly...needless to say...he went forward right there in the open air meeting and knelt down and repented.
There is not only one type of tongue..there is the type I just mentioned...there is the gift of tongues used in meetings where someone with the gift of interpretation responds and the Church is edified...and there is the common use of tongues for prayer, worship, and warfare. God is never in a box.
We move as God leads each of us...

 

[Retrobyter]

Yeah... I know. It should be a known fact among believers everywhere, but it is not.

Tongue speakers are actually speaking against this when they preach receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation in order to get this supernatural tongue that never comes with interpretation, but is assumed to be a prayer language of the Holy Spirit.

That is the falling away from the faith warned about in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter.

Some do preach "another" baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, but for now, the debate is about this apostasy that believers do not have the Holy Spirit at their "salvation"; that they must seek to receive the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues to get that promise.

At the link below is John 3rd chapter at Bible Gateway in the KJV;

Bible Gateway passage: John 3 - King James Version

Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about being born again of the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus is answering Nicodemus's question of how this will happen.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So born again of the Spirit is salvation when one believes in Jesus Christ.

But tongue speakers will say otherwise because they are trying to "guess" what that phenomenon was that came over them later on in life as a saved believer that brought tongues which never comes with interpretation, but assumed to be a prayer language of the Holy Ghost... which it is not.

They will not say it so bluntly, but they use scriptural references in the Book of Acts to tell other believers that they do not have the Holy Spirit yet as this is separate from salvation.

One of the passages they use is Acts 19:1-7 in saying how these disciples did not have the Holy Ghost yet, but they are not reading that rightly because they were disciples of John the Baptist's' not disciples of Jesus Christ. Paul had to tell them about Jesus being the One that John the Baptist was preaching about, and then these disciples got water baptized in Jesus's name and received the Holy Ghost after that as saved believers in Jesus Christ.

You can read that plainly in Acts 19:1-7 at this link below;

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 19:1-7 - King James Version

The other reference that tongue speakers try to prove this false teaching by is Acts 8:5-25 at this link below;

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 8:5-25 - King James Version

There was a delay for those believers receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost, but they were not saved until they did. The problem with tongue speakers is that they are not discerning why the delay. Simon's heart was not right with the Lord because he had a gall of bitterness within him as he had thought he could purchase this power from the apostle John & Peter for giving people the Holy Ghost;

Luke went through the trouble of giving the background on those Samaritans & Simon the sorcerer as the Samaritans were "fans" or "followers" by coercion under Simon whom was responsible for afflicting the people with unclean spirits.

Now Philip was coming along, casting out those unclean spirits and healing the lame and so forth while preaching ( due note this ) "the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ". Yes, they got water baptized in Jesus's name but Luke pointed out that they had not received the Holy Spirit yet. Peter & John had to go down there to lay hands on them for them to receive the promise.

Why? The people were being fans of Philip now instead of Simon and thinking all these things were happening by Philip and not from the Lord. Simon saw Peter & John laying hands and he, too, was not seeing this as coming from the Lord. That was why the Holy Ghost had to come through Peter & John because the people were being too much of a fan of Philip to not see the Lord working in their lives.

As the Father was being patient with these believers and even Simon, they were not saved yet until they had lifted their eyes to the Lord Jesus Christ above in receiving the promise of the Holy Ghost. They were not born again of the Spirit & thus saved until they did.

So no matter what the tongue speakers tell you about receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with evidence of tongues, that is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that is why that tongue never comes with interpretation, because that phenomenon is not of Him.

Shalom, JesusIsFaithful.

The problem as I see it is that "salvation" is the WRONG WORD! "Salvation" should be restricted in its usage to how it is used here:

Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

This, however, is a quote from an OT passage:

Joel 2:32
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
KJV

But, in context, we read:

Joel 2:25-3:2
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV

Thus, this word "salvation" is used more for the national rescue of Israel in the future than it is for individual, personal justification by God. In fact, "justification by God" is the BETTER way of saying "salvation," if one means the individual, personal process of being "born again."

SO, if one finds a verse of Scripture that talks about "salvation," it's more likely to be talking about the future national rescue of Israel than it is about individual, personal justification by God.

For instance, one should factor this definition for "salvation" into the text of Hebrews 2:1-4:

Hebrews 2:1-4
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
KJV

This passage, then, is talking about the national rescue of Israel, not personal justification by God! Therefore, this passage is NOT talking about the possibility of someone "losing his salvation," but is rather talking about one "forgetting the Jewish heritage behind the prophecies!" After all, our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah was sent "TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL!" (Matthew 15:24)