Born Again ?

[Jun2u]

adding error to error or two wrongs do not make it right - non Christians including not just Nicodemus but also the thief on the cross must be born again as little Christian children - no ifs or buts - twinc

Says you and those here that give you “likes”! I must admit those who wish to distort the meaning of Scriptures does it to suit their purposes. They do not know how to read and understand scriptures, and/or “connect the dots” so to speak.

Jesus came as the Savior of the world. He came to save His people from their sins. Salvation is from God alone. The thief on the cross was one of His elect, therefore He was able to save him. Right in front of us, Jesus shows how by just speaking He has the power to save, just as He saved John the Baptist in his mother’s womb… both thief and John were NOT baptized in the water!!! Water baptism is NOT essential to salvation as you make it be, except the baptism of regeneration.
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

The proof text to the word ANOTHEN in John 3:7 is found in John 1:13. Most Christians are familiar with John 1:12, but had they continued reading to verse 13, they would have learned the meaning of the term “born again” which is “born from above.”


“Water baptism” and the “communion table” are two rituals that were transitioned from the Old Testament. What were the rituals in the Old Testament? Do you know?

To God Be The Glory

 

[APAK]

Hi Apak,

Thank you for your input. Did you know that your statement/belief is based on 500 years of Protestant teaching? Even Martin Luther didn’t teach what you believe (water of the mothers womb).

I am proud to say my belief is based on 2,000 years of Christian teaching and is reflective of Jewish teaching.

Time for bible study instead of opinions:

In the passages BEFORE John 3:5-6 Jesus is baptized WITH WATER.

In the passages AFTER that He and the Apostles go out and baptize WITH WATER.

You are suggesting that in the MIDDLE of all that Jesus meant water to mean from a mothers womb???? Even AFTER Nicodemus asked him if he meant from his mothers womb and Jesus basically told him NO..... Your the teacher of these people and you don’t even undersand what I am saying.

Scripture tells us to imitate Christ. Scripture says baptism saves. It doesn’t say baptism kickstarts our heart or for divinity sake....whatever that means.

We get baptized because Jesus did it and it saves us. Just like scripture says.

I practice and believe scripture.

IHS...Mary

Mary, let me know when you really want to study scripture, seriously; separated from the comfort zone; your religion.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Helen]

The thief on the cross was one of His elect, therefore He was able to save him. Right in front of us, Jesus shows how by just speaking He has the power to save, just as He saved John the Baptist in his mother’s womb… both thief and John were NOT baptized in the water!!! Water baptism is NOT essential to salvation as you make it be, except the baptism of regeneration.

Thanks, I like that.

 

[Jun2u]

Thanks, I like that.

You are welcome.

Jun2u

 

[twinc]

You are welcome.

Jun2u

much too much ado about nothing for the least in the kingdom is greater than John - listen to what Jesus says and not what you tell yourself and get from way out, weird and wacky humans - btw it seems you missed it that Jesus said non Christians must be born again as Christians = this means and includes Nicodemus, all the Apostles and disciples, John the Baptist, Lazarus, Martha and Mary, Joseph of Arimathae, Paul, and even the thief on the cross who only first went to Paradise - all this should be in your bibles also - twinc

 

[bbyrd009]

it is because we do not and cannot simply simply believe that necessitated the cross - twinc

i don't know if you are changing the subject (again) as a reply to that--which i cannot make sense--or for some other reason, tc?
And i find it hard to accept this statement at face value bc i don't really know what "simply simply believe" even means to you, sorry.
Strikes me as an obfuscation all by itself, tho i'm sure it has meaning for you

 

[twinc]

i don't know if you are changing the subject (again) as a reply to that--which i cannot make sense--or for some other reason, tc?
And i find it hard to accept this statement at face value bc i don't really know what "simply simply believe" even means to you, sorry.
Strikes me as an obfuscation all by itself, tho i'm sure it has meaning for you

it has nothing to do with you or I or anyone else but with Jn 20:31 - twinc

 

[bbyrd009]

it has nothing to do with you or I or anyone else but with Jn 20:31 - twinc

ah. personally i'd be having faith there instead, and let the deceived "believe" all they want imo.
which "believe" btw? there's 5 different ways to "believe."

John 20:31 Lexicon: but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

(you have to click on it for "believe" to disappear, and for "faith" to appear; ha, kinda like IRL)

 

[amadeus]

.

... The thief on the cross was one of His elect, therefore He was able to save him. Right in front of us, Jesus shows how by just speaking He has the power to save, just as He saved John the Baptist in his mother’s womb… both thief and John were NOT baptized in the water!!! Water baptism is NOT essential to salvation as you make it be, except the baptism of regeneration.

To God Be The Glory

But John does lose his own head quite literally in the physical:

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:15-16

All of us need to see what John depicted in the means of his natural death that we need to lose our own head and let Jesus be our Head. Baptism in water may be optional, but losing our own head is not.

Indeed, to God be the glory for is not He the Head of Christ?

 

[Jun2u]

But John does lose his own head quite literally in the physical:

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:15-16

All of us need to see what John depicted in the means of his natural death that we need to lose our own head and let Jesus be our Head. Baptism in water may be optional, but losing our own head is not.

Indeed, to God be the glory for is not He the Head of Christ?

I must confess you’ve lost me in post #49 above. The topic of this thread is about being born again and not about the death of John the Baptist.

Jesus saved the thief on the cross two or three hours before death, and in contrast, Jesus saved John three months from his birth. Had John and the thief died as infants, would both go to be with the Lord?

Most definitely!!! Their condition as “regenerated” (Titus 3:5) and “born from above” (John 1:13) has not changed. Salvation is of God, not man.

I know where you are going as to your response for we had this discussion before, that is “age of accountability.” Please don’t go there as you would be in violation of Psalm 58.

If I had misunderstood your post, please elaborate.

To God Be The Glory

 

[amadeus]

I must confess you’ve lost me in post #49 above. The topic of this thread is about being born again and not about the death of John the Baptist.

I was not disagreeing with you. On the contrary I was simply indicating that John showed us in his death an example of what is necessary anyone who is to be a part of the Body of Christ? I won't say that John is or is not because without regard to his being filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb, he was born and died before the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Is anyone in the OT to be a part of the Body of Christ? I am throwing out an open question which I won't attempt to answer here. God knows.

Off topic? Perhaps, but still of interest, I believe.

Jesus saved the thief on the cross two or three hours before death, and in contrast, Jesus saved John three months from his birth. Had John and the thief died as infants, would both go to be with the Lord?

Most definitely!!! Their condition as “regenerated” (Titus 3:5) and “born from above” (John 1:13) has not changed. Salvation is of God, not man.

Quite right, that is to say, that it is of God. On some things it is best to leave it in God's hands. For example, we can see that Moses missed the way when he smote the rock instead of speaking to it. Since he was excluded from the Promised Land, does that mean that he was not saved? Then we see him and Elijah meet with Jesus and so much for the type or shadow being equal to salvation or the lack thereof...

I know where you are going as to your response for we had this discussion before, that is “age of accountability.” Please don’t go there as you would be in violation of Psalm 58.

Do you know where I am going? I do not recall conversing with you before, but I truly may have forgotten it. Even if I did, isn't it possible that my position or belief has been changed since then? Does not a believer grow? Does not growth sometimes mean changing even some very basic beliefs? When I moved from Catholic to agnostic nothing, I changed. When I moved from there to Oneness Jesus Only, I changed. When I moved from there, I changed yet again. I, in my personal walk with God, have changed. Has no one else ever changed like that? What of the followers of Judaism who became followers of Jesus, did they not change?

If I had misunderstood your post, please elaborate.

To God Be The Glory

Do you now understand my post? If not ask questions I will try to amplify.
Yes, to God be the glory always for He alone is always worthy!

 

[Jun2u]

Hi and Thank you. I don't disagree with you. I guess we just have to figure out who the "true believers" are????

Who do you think they are? Only those that are born again?


Most definitely those who are born from above (John 1:13), and specially those whom the Father gave to Jesus in John 6:44 in which He did not lose any (6:37).

As I’ve alluded to I don’t believe water baptism is any significant in the salvation of man. Also, I may be wrong, but I don’t believe Jesus baptized anyone, and certainly Paul only baptized Crispus and Gaius and the household of Stephanas and none other (1 Corinthians 1:14, 16).

So if water baptism is indeed essential in man’s salvation, don’t you think Jesus and Paul would have baptized more people than what we read in Scriptures?

Thinking back to the time I wrote that I am not sure why I underlined the word water. I think I wanted to emphasize what He and the Apostles did right after that. They went and baptized with water.

We also receive the Spirit when we are baptized with water: Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:19-20, 1 Corinthians 12:13

Just like what happened to Jesus: John 1:29-33

Hope that helps clarify.

IHS....Mary

Hi and Thank you. I don't disagree with you. I guess we just have to figure out who the "true believers" are????

Who do you think they are? Only those that are born again?

Most definitely those who are born from above (John 1:13), and specially those whom the Father gave to Jesus in John 6:44 in which He did not lose any (6:37).

As I’ve alluded to I don’t believe water baptism is any significant in the salvation of man. Also, I may be wrong, but I don’t believe Jesus baptized anyone, and certainly Paul only baptized Crispus and Gaius and the household of Stephanas and none other (1 Corinthians 1:14, 16).

So if water baptism is indeed essential in man’s salvation, don’t you think Jesus and Paul would have baptized more people than what we read in Scriptures?

We also receive the Spirit when we are baptized with water: Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:19-20, 1 Corinthians 12:13

Sorry, I beg to differ.

Matthew 28:19-20 DOES NOT speak of water baptism nor do we receive the Holy Spirit at that time. The parallel meaning is found in Mark 16:16. Here it is not speaking of water baptism either, for water baptism is a works gospel, which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8.

In Acts 2:38, the word “repent” means “to turn to another direction.” Again, water baptism is NOT in view. This has the same idea as Matthew 28:19-20. IOW, we are to be baptized into (emphasis) the name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, in the authority of Jesus’ name, Amen. Just as we say at the end of each prayer.

The word “repent” can be seen clearer in Jeremiah 18:8,10, and Acts 5:31. (Israel here, is the totality of all believers). “For He will save His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21). Acts 2:38 must also be read in light of Ezekiel 36:24-30 (God is the primary mover), and by the washing of the word, which is the Gospel (Ephesians 5:26).

I hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Marymog]

Most definitely those who are born from above (John 1:13), and specially those whom the Father gave to Jesus in John 6:44 in which He did not lose any (6:37).

As I’ve alluded to I don’t believe water baptism is any significant in the salvation of man. Also, I may be wrong, but I don’t believe Jesus baptized anyone, and certainly Paul only baptized Crispus and Gaius and the household of Stephanas and none other (1 Corinthians 1:14, 16).

So if water baptism is indeed essential in man’s salvation, don’t you think Jesus and Paul would have baptized more people than what we read in Scriptures?



Sorry, I beg to differ.

Matthew 28:19-20 DOES NOT speak of water baptism nor do we receive the Holy Spirit at that time. The parallel meaning is found in Mark 16:16. Here it is not speaking of water baptism either, for water baptism is a works gospel, which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8.

In Acts 2:38, the word “repent” means “to turn to another direction.” Again, water baptism is NOT in view. This has the same idea as Matthew 28:19-20. IOW, we are to be baptized into (emphasis) the name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, in the authority of Jesus’ name, Amen. Just as we say at the end of each prayer.

The word “repent” can be seen clearer in Jeremiah 18:8,10, and Acts 5:31. (Israel here, is the totality of all believers). “For He will save His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21). Acts 2:38 must also be read in light of Ezekiel 36:24-30 (God is the primary mover), and by the washing of the word, which is the Gospel (Ephesians 5:26).

I hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory

Hi,

And what number would that be that they would have had to baptize to convince you?

Matthew 28:19-20 and Acts 2:38 does speak of water baptism because that is what baptism was all throughout the NT. That is what baptism was in the historical writings and practices of the first century Christians and thru the year 2018.....baptism with water. Do you not know your own Christian history?

Baptism is essential to salvation. Have you not read that baptism saves you? 1 Peter 3:21


Mary

 

[twinc]

Most definitely those who are born from above (John 1:13), and specially those whom the Father gave to Jesus in John 6:44 in which He did not lose any (6:37).

As I’ve alluded to I don’t believe water baptism is any significant in the salvation of man. Also, I may be wrong, but I don’t believe Jesus baptized anyone, and certainly Paul only baptized Crispus and Gaius and the household of Stephanas and none other (1 Corinthians 1:14, 16).

So if water baptism is indeed essential in man’s salvation, don’t you think Jesus and Paul would have baptized more people than what we read in Scriptures?



Sorry, I beg to differ.

Matthew 28:19-20 DOES NOT speak of water baptism nor do we receive the Holy Spirit at that time. The parallel meaning is found in Mark 16:16. Here it is not speaking of water baptism either, for water baptism is a works gospel, which is contrary to Ephesians 2:8.

In Acts 2:38, the word “repent” means “to turn to another direction.” Again, water baptism is NOT in view. This has the same idea as Matthew 28:19-20. IOW, we are to be baptized into (emphasis) the name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, in the authority of Jesus’ name, Amen. Just as we say at the end of each prayer.

The word “repent” can be seen clearer in Jeremiah 18:8,10, and Acts 5:31. (Israel here, is the totality of all believers). “For He will save His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21). Acts 2:38 must also be read in light of Ezekiel 36:24-30 (God is the primary mover), and by the washing of the word, which is the Gospel (Ephesians 5:26).

I hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Helen]

I know it is true that there has always been persecution.
But why...in any search engine ( which are obviously not religiously biases)

Whenever any person types in the word 'Inquisition'....what pops up is about The Catholic Church.
That is what it says.

 

[twinc]

what a shame, scandal and disgrace by those proclaiming them selves as Christians and even inspired by the Holy Spirit with not a clue as to its prime tenet - twinc

 

[twinc]

I know it is true that there has always been persecution.
But why...in any search engine ( which are obviously not religiously biases)

Whenever any person types in the word 'Inquisition'....what pops up is about The Catholic Church.
That is what it says.

what but nothing nor anyone came to be persecuted except misled and misleading Catholics - twinc

 

[Jun2u]

@ Amadeus,

Do you know where I am going? I do not recall conversing with you before, but I truly may have forgotten it. Even if I did, isn't it possible that my position or belief has been changed since then? Does not a believer grow? Does not growth sometimes mean changing even some very basic beliefs?


I have not seen anyone, at least in these forums, a person who humbly admits publicly that he can change if his doctrine is in error. What can I say but commend you, for this is the character of someone who is a child of God.

But don’t think for a moment I will lapse in not correcting if I find you misunderstanding a particular passage. None of us have a perfect understanding of Scripture and we can learn from each other.

Keep up your good work in the Lord.

To God Be The Glory

 

[amadeus]

I have not seen anyone, at least in these forums, a person who humbly admits publicly that he can change if his doctrine is in error. What can I say but commend you, for this is the character of someone who is a child of God.

But don’t think for a moment I will lapse in not correcting if I find you misunderstanding a particular passage. None of us have a perfect understanding of Scripture and we can learn from each other.

Keep up your good work in the Lord.

To God Be The Glory

Thank you for your kind statement. Kindness is something that is absolutely necessary to charity [I Cor 13:4], but it can be quite difficult for people to manifest kindness one toward another. Therein is a problem on a forum like this where people are almost certainly going to encounter others with whom they disagree. Can they disagree and retain or maintain charity/love? With God's help it is possible. But too many are more concerned about winning the battle against their opposition than with staying on the Lord's side. Even if my doctrine is right and the other guy is wrong, when I have lost charity, I have moved away from God.

I can remember as a young Catholic wanting to grow in the things of God, but not really understanding how to do that. I had an idea on how to do it, but it turned out I was very wrong.

To grow is to change. I don't purposely plan to change, but is my heart is open to God and I am will strive toward whatever He has for me [as opposed to whatever I want]. Learning to stand firm on the one hand but to remain open on the other hand was one of the hardest lessons of my walk with God.

Having said all of that...

Nach so viele Jahre mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut, aber ich kann noch einige Wörte schreiben. Ich lese die Heilige Schrift auf Deutsch fast täglich. Hier in Oklahoma gibt es fast keine deutsche sprechendende Leute. Es macht jetzt mehr als funfundvierzig Jahre daß ich ein Student in Deutschland war. Aufwiedersehen!

 

[mjrhealth]

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Eyes to see ears to hear. All before Christ was of the flesh, Christ came to reign in the "new" covenant with the Jews, from His death to Pentecost was a transition period, than all after Pentecost is by the Spirit, Jesus left the disciples something to tide them over till He met up with them after His resurrection, hence baptism, breaking of the bread, but now we have Christ and the Holy Spirit which is born in us and than we become that new creation, and Christ has become our bread if of which we partake we get life.

Joh_6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh_6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh_6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.