Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[PinSeeker]

So, you see 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 20:9 as all referring to figurative fire relating to the dissolving of the heavens and the elements and the burning up of the earth and all the things on the earth.

Hmmm... I think what I would say to this is... Well, my answer, depending on what is really meant by 'figurative,' and 'dissolving,' and 'burning up,' is... yes... and/or no. <smile>

We see the end result as being the same, so it's not something to have a big debate about.

Hmmm, okay... <smile>

But...

Yes, 'but'... <chuckles>

...one thing I'm not clear about as far as how you see this is what do you think happens to living unbelievers when Jesus returns?

That seems strange... I mean Jesus is clear about that in Matthew 25:41-46, and I think we've agreed on this several times before...

Do you think they physically die first before being judged and cast into the eternal fire...

No...

or do you think they are just immediately transformed...

Unbelievers transformed? No... I'm a little afraid to ask... <smile> ...but how do you think unbelievers are transformed, either immediately or otherwise?

and then appear before Christ to give an account of themselves...

We will all be judged according to what we have done.

before being cast into the eternal fire or something else?

I mean we've talked about this before, several times; unbelievers will depart... And yes, they will be "cast into the eternal fire," but, um, we've talked about that before...

...I just don't agree completely with how you see that happening exactly.

Right, I know. <smile>

Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:6-7. He compares the future global fiery event to what happened to the world with the flood in Noah's day.

Indeed he does, but...

To me, it implies that he is comparing like events in terms of both of them being physical events that are global in scope.

I know. <smile>

There is most assuredly a continuation from the Old Testament to the New, but in a much different way than many people understand. I would just point out what the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 1:1-2 (which may not seem to you like much of an answer): "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..."

...I'm just explaining further why I see it this way.

<chuckles> For now, anyway... <smile> I understand.

And this seems to be implied by Jesus in Matthew 24:35-39 as well, in my opinion.

I understand. And I agree on the similarity regarding the implication of both passages, but with regard to unexpectedness and suddenness, and completeness and finality, which is how Jesus, even in this very passage, contextualizes it, in verses 42-44, and Peter does, too in 2 Peter 3:9-10, and Peter himself connects what he is writing to what Jesus says in, as you said, verses 6-7. Yeah, there's no point in arguing about it, but I say the actual event and how it will literally be, or look, is really not in view... either in what Jesus says there in Matthew 24 or what Peter writes in 2 Peter 3.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That is what many say, but why is the church all over the place on those numbers meaning? Everyone seems to just be guessing. Why does the 1260 end with the 2nd coming (Jesus slays the AC and his minions) but the other 2 numbers have different equations? God is always symmetrical, He doesn't change things up in the middle of a chapter, its not the 1260 its really the 1261, if one is looking from the start of the 70th week, and Daniel 12:7 clearly says that the holy peoples (Israel) will be conquered for 1260 days, not 1261, so the count is on the back end of the middle of the week, and Jesus' 2nd coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS, so why is the symmetry changed? Daniel asks WHEN WILL ALL THESE THINGS END? The 2nd coming is the fulcrum point, in all three numbers.

No, very few understand this because they are gentiles and do not equate to the Jewish ness of Daniel 12

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, you misplace the thousand years. <smile> And you may call that my opinion; I don't mind. <smile>

No, I just follow what the Word of God says. the 1000 year regin begins with either Jesus return, or after the 1335 days from the mid point of the trib. I personally hold to after the 1335 days, which will be 75 days after Jesus physical return.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, I just follow what the Word of God says.

We would all say that, Ronald. <smile>

the 1000 year regin begins with either Jesuss return, or after the 1335 days from the mid point of the trib.

Disagree. <smile>

I personally hold to after the 1335 days, which will be 75 days after Jesus physical return.

Hmmm... I understand... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Ronald, this may be the most convoluted understanding of prophecy that I have ever read. I would encourage you to seriously get some scholarly commentaries on Daniel and the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation alone would help you see where your numbers are considerably off. Go to bestcommentaries.com and choose a couple for Daniel and maybe a few commentaries on Revelation. The good news is that most of the commentaries they recommend are easy to understanding. It might be time-consuming but if you read these commentaries, all the while being instructed by the Holy Spirit, you will come away with a more accurate picture of the end times.

Prophesy has been my calling (besides preaching the Gospel of course) for over 40 years now. I can explain the whole book of Revelation in one post. No one will ever grasp it in full, until they understand that Israel must repent before God's Wrath falls. We know God is not dumb by nature right? but He is supposed to allow the AC to conquer Israel and place the AoD, which God uses to warn the 1/3 Jews who repent to flee Judea. Well, that would not be very intelligent, would it, a warning after the tornado has come so t speak serves no purpose, so God is not warning the Jewish 1/3 to flee after they are conquered, he warns them when the False Prophet (a Jewish High priest like unto Jason under Antiochus Epiphanes) forbids Jesus worship in "his temple" (takes away/forbids THE REAL SACRIFICE) he then cheekily places THE IMAGES of the Beast (an E.U. President) up in the temple, why? Israel joining the E.U. is "THE AGREEMENT" of Dan. 9:27. God starts the 70th week and ends the church age at the same time, when Israel, basically, give His land away.

You can't see the obvious because you have learned men's traditions etc. The 1335 are the Two-witnesses whose 1260 da CANNOT PARALEL with the Beasts, they DIE FIRST !! So they must show up first. God who knows al, understood, t get Israel saved before the wrath falls at the 1260 He had to call them unto repentance before the middle of the week 1260 (The holy peoples power being scattered Dan. 12:7 meaning Conquered) so God does just that at the 1335 blessing, AND He told Daniel seal this up, it will be sealed up (a SECRET) until the very end (NOW) so, the 1335 is 1335 days until ALL THES THINGS END, or 1335 days away from the 2nd coming. Its a blessing because calling Israel (1/3 or 5 million) to repent is God being merciful on Israel, a Blessing indeed. The 1290 comes 45 days later, 1290 days before the 2nd coming ends all of these WONDERS/THINGS Daniel saw in Dan. 11:36-45. Do not wonder that the fact you never looked at it this way, God had it cloaked for 2500 years.

By the way, the AC and False Prophet will be on earth together. Pssttt so were the Archetypes, Antiochus Epiphanes (AE4) was bribed by Jason (real name Yeshua) to be appointed High Priest, having his pious brother Onias III killed, he then welcomed AE4 into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, he the MANDATED that all Jews become Hellenized, leading unto the Maccabean Revolt. He took on the Greek name Jason. He was a sellout, and likewise the AC (a Greek Born E.U. President) will have a Jewish High Priest in league with him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Unbelievers transformed? No... I'm a little afraid to ask... <smile> ...but how do you think unbelievers are transformed, either immediately or otherwise?

What I meant to ask is if you see living unbelievers as being transported (not transformed) immediately from where they are to appearing before Jesus on His judgment seat/throne. I used the wrong word there. I wasn't talking about the transformation/change of their bodies like what Paul talks about only in relation to believers in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

We will all be judged according to what we have done.

Yep.

I mean we've talked about this before, several times; unbelievers will depart... And yes, they will be "cast into the eternal fire," but, um, we've talked about that before...

Yes, we have.

I understand. And I agree on the similarity regarding the implication of both passages, but with regard to unexpectedness and suddenness, and completeness and finality, which is how Jesus, even in this very passage, contextualizes it, in verses 42-44, and Peter does, too in 2 Peter 3:9-10, and Peter himself connects what he is writing to what Jesus says in, as you said, verses 6-7. Yeah, there's no point in arguing about it, but I say the actual event and how it will literally be, or look, is really not in view... either in what Jesus says there in Matthew 24 or what Peter writes in 2 Peter 3.

Okay. It's not a major point of disagreement as far as I'm concerned. As I said, we agree on the timing and end result of that event (since we are both amillennialists).

 

[PinSeeker]

What I meant to ask is if you see living unbelievers as being transported (not transformed) immediately from where they are to appearing before Jesus on His judgment seat/throne.

Okay, well no, I don't see anybody really being "transported" anywhere.

I used the wrong word there. I wasn't talking about the transformation/change of their bodies like what Paul talks about only in relation to believers in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

Hmmm... a "transformation/change of their bodies" for believers, then? Because that's... a little scary, too... <chuckles>

Grace and peace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, well no, I don't see anybody really being "transported" anywhere.

So, what do you see happening when Jesus comes exactly? Do you think that people will have to literally appear before Him to give an account of themselves? If so, how do you see that working exactly? Paul does say that we will meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17). What do you think that means?

Hmmm... a "transformation/change of their bodies" for believers, then? Because that's... a little scary, too... <chuckles>

Why? It's written about in 1 Corinthians 15:42-54. It refers to the dead in Christ being resurrected at the last trumpet and the bodies of all believers being changed from being corruptible, dishonorable, weak and mortal natural bodies to incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual bodies. Is that scary to you somehow?

 

[PinSeeker]

So, what do you see happening when Jesus comes exactly? Do you think that people will have to literally appear before Him to give an account of themselves?

Romans 14:10-12 ~ “…we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.’ So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.”

If so, how do you see that working exactly?

<chuckles>

Paul does say that we will meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17). What do you think that means?

Those who are still alive at the time of His return will go out to meet Him in His return, as loyal subjects of the returning King…

Why? It's written about in 1 Corinthians 15:42-54. It refers to the dead in Christ being resurrected at the last trumpet and the bodies of all believers being changed from being corruptible, dishonorable, weak and mortal natural bodies to incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual bodies. Is that scary to you somehow?

<chuckles> Just a bit “scary” (note the scare quotes) regarding what your thoughts might be regarding “incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual bodies” (especially ‘spiritual,’ and maybe ‘powerful,’ also). There’s a lot of, um, fantastical ideas that have been bandied about that on this board in many threads.

Let it go, SI.

Grace and peace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I just follow what the Word of God says. the 1000 year regin begins with either Jesus return, or after the 1335 days from the mid point of the trib. I personally hold to after the 1335 days, which will be 75 days after Jesus physical return.

You say you just follow what the Word of God says. What does the Word of God say here about what will happen when Jesus returns...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

I can't see where this passage allows for a 1000 year reign on the earth to begin after Jesus returns. Can you show me where that fits in this passage?

How about the following passage from the Word of God? What does the Word of God given by Paul say about what will happen when Jesus returns?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Again, I don't see anything about a 1000 year reign on the earth here after Jesus returns or where that can possibly fit with what Paul wrote here. Maybe you can show me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Romans 14:10-12 ~ “…we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.’ So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.”

So, your answer to my question is yes.

Those who are still alive at the time of His return will go out to meet Him in His return, as loyal subjects of the returning King…

In the air, right? As Paul said (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).

<chuckles> Just a bit “scary” (note the scare quotes) regarding what your thoughts might be regarding “incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual bodies” (especially ‘spiritual,’ and maybe ‘powerful,’ also). There’s a lot of, um, fantastical ideas that have been bandied about that on this board in many threads.

No idea of what you're talking about. I'm simply going by what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and not just making things up as many on this forum do. Have you ever read it?

Let it go, SI.

Let what go? If you don't want to continue talking about this, you can just say so. It doesn't matter to me. I was simply responding to things that you said. I don't get the sense that you've given these things much thought.

 

[PeterAndroz]

You say you just follow what the Word of God says. What does the Word of God say here about what will happen when Jesus returns...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

I can't see where this passage allows for a 1000 year reign on the earth to begin after Jesus returns. Can you show me where that fits in this passage?

How about the following passage from the Word of God? What does the Word of God given by Paul say about what will happen when Jesus returns?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Again, I don't see anything about a 1000 year reign on the earth here after Jesus returns or where that can possibly fit with what Paul wrote here. Maybe you can show me.

Paul taught Christ will return but did not teach the 1000 year reign taught in Rev 20:4-7
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't get the sense that you've given these things much thought.

Welllllllllllll, then maybe you don’t have much sense. <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul taught Christ will return but did not teach the 1000 year reign taught in Rev 20:4-7
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

This is all you have to say in response to my post? How about putting a bit more thought into this? Do you think Paul would have been unfamiliar with the time period that is referred to in Revelation 20 as the thousand years? He was not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Welllllllllllll, then maybe you don’t have much sense. <chuckles>

I know for sure that you don't. <chuckles>

 

[PinSeeker]

I know for sure that you don't. <chuckles>

Oh, well then you know nothing, too. Hm.

Grace and peace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh, well then you know nothing, too. Hm.

I know more than you, obviously, but I'm glad you admit that you know nothing.

 

[PinSeeker]

I know more than you, obviously...

I have no problem with you thinking that.

, but I'm glad you admit that you know nothing.

So me saying you know nothing is really me admitting I know nothing. LOL! I mean that does explain so much about how you "think"...

Grace and peace

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have no problem with you thinking that.

So me saying you know nothing is really me admitting I know nothing. LOL! I mean that does explain so much about how you "think"...

Grace and peace

I see that logic is not one of your strong points. Which I've known for some time now. I see I have to spell it out to you. You saying that I know nothing, TOO, means you're admitting that you know nothing. Not that you need to admit that. It's already painfully obvious.

 

[PinSeeker]

I see that logic is not one of your strong points.

Right, black is white, and white is black. Yes, you live in opposite world, where logic, as ably shown in your last post, is the polar opposite of logic... anti-... or alt-logic, as it were. Yeah I make it a point to avoid such "logic."

Which I've known for some time now.

Again your admisstion that you know nothing. So it goes...

I see...

That's your problem. "Seeing," when it would be better to actually see. <smile>

I have to spell it out to you.

Right, you spelled out how blind you are. I mean I knew that.

You saying that I know nothing, TOO, means you're admitting that you know nothing.

Ah, there it is again, doubling down... black is white and white is black.

...painfully obvious.

Indeed it is.

But so it goes...