Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Davidpt]

DOTL = day of the Lord.


Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit. The DOTL does not fit at the beginning of great tribulation. It fits after great tribulation proved by all of the following. And there is even more passages than the following that proves it except I'm not going to list every single passage that might prove it.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What I have underlined in verse 29 also depicts darkness, and that we are told the time of this darkness does not precede the beginning of great tribulation, it immediately follows great tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What I have underlined in verse 12 and 13 also depicts darkness, and is obviously referring to the same time period and events Matthew 24:29 is.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

The DOTL involves both wrath and fierce anger.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And so does this involve wrath. And that you can't have wrath without fierce anger. The text indicates that the great day of his wrath is come, and not, His great day of wrath already came earlier before the time of the 6th seal. That is a contradiction if it is not until the time of the 6th seal that His great day of wrath has initially come.



Something else I would like to point out. The first trumpet is not meaning chronologically sometime later following the events recorded in the 6th seal. It is not logical that the first trumpet can follow after the 6th seal since the 5th seal must precede the 6th seal, and that the 5th seal, for example, meaning this---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)---is involving the time of the 6th trumpet(Revelation 11:2,7, Revelation 13:5,7,15)

And that Revelation 6:17 is involving the era of time and events that Revelation 11:15,18 is involving.

Therefore, How can trumpet 1 follow the 5th and 6th seal when the 5th seal is involving the 6th trumpet, and that the 6th seal is involving the 7th trumpet? Since when does the number 6 and number 7 precede the number 1 rather than follows it?

IOW, trumpet 1 comes before trumpet 6 and 7. Seriously, who could be that bad at math where they have 6 and 7 meaning before 1 rather than after 1? Nobody, right? Once again, the fact the 6th trumpet involves the 5th seal, the 7th trumpet involves the 6th seal, clearly tells any objective person not placing their doctrinal bias' above that of common sense, that this means that the first trumpet can't be meaning after the 5th and 6th seal in that case, since it causes a mathematical impossibility with the 7 trumpets if trumpet 6 and 7 correlate with seal 5 and 6.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

or we can listen to jesus

Matt 24: 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The great trib immediately follows the man of sin committing the abomination which causes desolation.

 

[Davidpt]

or we can listen to jesus

Matt 24: 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The great trib immediately follows the man of sin committing the abomination which causes desolation.

I'm not arguing against what you submitted. I fully agree with you. Except I don't take it to be involving a literal temple, in the event you do. I'm arguing against the idea that great tribulation begins with the DOTL, that great tribulation involves the DOTL. No it doesn't, and the OP clearly proves it doesn't. And since great tribulation can't be involving the DOTL, this tells us that great tribulation can't be involving God's wrath upon unbelieving Jews in the first century, but must be involving satan's wrath upon the church in it's closing days leading up to the end of this age. thus the 42 month reign of the beast, and not involving 70 AD instead.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not arguing against what you submitted. I fully agree with you. Except I don't take it to be involving a literal temple, in the event you do.

if its not a literal temple. then thos in jherusalem and the world will not know the sign to know we need to hunker down for the great tribulation

I'm arguing against the idea that great tribulation begins with the DOTL, that great tribulation involves the DOTL. No it doesn't, and the OP clearly proves it doesn't. And since great tribulation can't be involving the DOTL, this tells us that great tribulation can't be involving God's wrath upon unbelieving Jews in the first century, but must be involving satan's wrath upon the church in it's closing days leading up to the end of this age. thus the 42 month reign of the beast, and not, involving 70 AD instead.

non of the last week of Daniels 70 weeks have happened yet. if this is what your saying, we agree

 

[Davidpt]

non of the last week of Daniels 70 weeks have happened yet. if this is what your saying, we agree

Initially, for decades even, my position was that the entire 70th week is future. I have since changed my position and my position is this now, only the 2nd half of the 70th week is still future--meaning after this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. IOW, the gap is not between the 69th and 70th week. The gap is the middle of the week. The gap is after this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--followed by a gap, followed by--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Thus meaning great tribulation, thus meaning the 42 month reign of the beast that precedes the 2nd coming in the end of this age.

My view here is nothing new nor a view only I hold to. I have been familiar with this view for more than 10 years now except I initially disagreed at the time that the gap could be in the middle of the week after this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

 

[Truth7t7]

DOTL = day of the Lord.


Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit. The DOTL does not fit at the beginning of great tribulation. It fits after great tribulation proved by all of the following. And there is even more passages than the following that proves it except I'm not going to list every single passage that might prove it.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What I have underlined in verse 29 also depicts darkness, and that we are told the time of this darkness does not precede the beginning of great tribulation, it immediately follows great tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What I have underlined in verse 12 and 13 also depicts darkness, and is obviously referring to the same time period and events Matthew 24:29 is.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

The DOTL involves both wrath and fierce anger.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And so does this involve wrath. And that you can't have wrath without fierce anger. The text indicates that the great day of his wrath is come, and not, His great day of wrath already came earlier before the time of the 6th seal. That is a contradiction if it is not until the time of the 6th seal that His great day of wrath has initially come.



Something else I would like to point out. The first trumpet is not meaning chronologically sometime later following the events recorded in the 6th seal. It is not logical that the first trumpet can follow after the 6th seal since the 5th seal must precede the 6th seal, and that the 5th seal, for example, meaning this---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)---is involving the time of the 6th trumpet(Revelation 11:2,7, Revelation 13:5,7,15)

And that Revelation 6:17 is involving the era of time and events that Revelation 11:15,18 is involving.

Therefore, How can trumpet 1 follow the 5th and 6th seal when the 5th seal is involving the 6th trumpet, and that the 6th seal is involving the 7th trumpet? Since when does the number 6 and number 7 precede the number 1 rather than follows it?

IOW, trumpet 1 comes before trumpet 6 and 7. Seriously, who could be that bad at math where they have 6 and 7 meaning before 1 rather than after 1? Nobody, right? Once again, the fact the 6th trumpet involves the 5th seal, the 7th trumpet involves the 6th seal, clearly tells any objective person not placing their doctrinal bias' above that of common sense, that this means that the first trumpet can't be meaning after the 5th and 6th seal in that case, since it causes a mathematical impossibility with the 7 trumpets if trumpet 6 and 7 correlate with seal 5 and 6.

(The Day Of The Lord) is the end of this earth that will be dissolved by the Lord's fire in final judgement at his return, its that simple

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Initially, for decades even, my position was that the entire 70th week is future. I have since changed my position and my position is this now, only the 2nd half of the 70th week is still future--meaning after this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. IOW, the gap is not between the 69th and 70th week. The gap is the middle of the week. The gap is after this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--followed by a gap, followed by--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Thus meaning great tribulation, thus meaning the 42 month reign of the beast that precedes the 2nd coming in the end of this age.

My view here is nothing new nor a view only I hold to. I have been familiar with this view for more that 10 years now except I initially disagreed at the time that the gap could be in the middle of the week after this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

when did the future prince confirm a covenant for 1 week? remember, its in the middle of this week that the abomination of desolation occurs.

 

[Truth7t7]

if its not a literal temple. then thos in jherusalem and the world will not know the sign to know we need to hunker down for the great tribulation

Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth during the 3.5 year tribulation "wrong"!

It will be God's (Two Witnesses) that rule in bringing all plagues in torturing the evil world, a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, God's in control!

Revelation 11:3-6 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Future (Two Witnesses) "All Plagues" As Often As They Will Representing "God"

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Davidpt]

(The Day Of The Lord) is the end of this earth that will be dissolved by the Lord's fire in final judgement at his return, its that simple

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

While I do agree with you here, that doesn't necessarily mean I might agree with you in the manner this will be accomplished. IOW, if your view is that the entire planet is engulfed in literal fire, thus burning to death infants, children, adults, plus the entire plant and animal kingdom, the same way it was engulfed in literal water during Noah's flood, I then disagree. But I don't disagree with where you are placing the timing of it. An entire planet literally engulfed in flames does not agree with Noah's flood since the animal kingdom was preserved during Noah's flood but would be wiped out entirely if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames.

If one is going to argue that the entire planet will be engulfed in literal flames because during Noah's flood the entire planet was engulfed in literal water, one cannot use that as a valid argument if it involves contradicting something that happened or never happened during Noah's flood. For example. During Noah's flood the entire animal kingdom was not wiped out, thus never happened,, it was preserved, thus happened.

 

[Davy]

DOTL = day of the Lord.


Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit. The DOTL does not fit at the beginning of great tribulation. It fits after great tribulation proved by all of the following. And there is even more passages than the following that proves it except I'm not going to list every single passage that might prove it.

....

Very correct. And there is a reason why the Pre-trib Rapture School wants to move the "day of the Lord" backwards to the START of the "great tribulation." It is because there are plenty of Bible Scripture examples about Jesus' coming to gather His Church on the "day of the Lord". And since Pre-trib wrongly believes Jesus comes PRIOR to the trib to gather the Church, their doctors realized they created a conflict because of that "day of the Lord". So they just moved it. And in 'their' view, I mean the doctors behind pushing the false Pre-trib Rapture, they see no problem moving it, since the basis of their Pre-trib Rapture doctrine is a hoax anyway.

So what I am saying about those 'behind the scenes' with pushing the Pre-trib Rapture lie, is that they well KNOW they are pushing a LIE against the written Bible Scripture. The problem is that deceived brethren can't figure out that those Pre-trib doctors are telling lies ON PURPOSE.

 

[Truth7t7]

While I do agree with you here, that doesn't necessarily mean I might agree with you in the manner this will be accomplished. IOW, if your view is that the entire planet is engulfed in literal fire, thus burning to death infants, children, adults, plus the entire plant and animal kingdom, the same way it was engulfed in literal water during Noah's flood, I then disagree. But I don't disagree with where you are placing the timing of it. An entire planet literally engulfed in flames does not agree with Noah's flood since the animal kingdom was preserved during Noah's flood but would be wiped out entirely if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames.

If one is going to argue that the entire planet will be engulfed in literal flames because during Noah's flood the entire planet was engulfed in literal water, one cannot use that as a valid argument if it involves contradicting something that happened during Noah's flood. For example. During Noah's flood the entire animal kingdom was not wiped out, it was preserved.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Davy]

@Truth7t7 , you might as well tell them just how you wrongly believe God is going to literally destroy this whole earth, turning it into some kind of asteroid belt, on that day, when the Scripture in the Greek actually points to God cleansing the SURFACE of this earth on that day.

NOR do we immediately go into God's eternity of a new heavens and a new earth on the day of Christ's return, for like Apostle Paul said, Jesus MUST reign until He has made all His enemies His footstool. And the Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 Chapters reveal the WICKED will still exist after Christ's future return. Also with Rev.22:14-15 and Rev.3:9.

Country preachers seldom refer to the Bible manuscripts, and also skip obvious patterns written in God's Word about events. 2 Peter 3 is one such place. Peter covered 2 previous destructions by God upon the whole earth, yet in neither one did He literally destroy the whole earth. He won't destroy the whole earth with this next one by fire either, but only cleanse its surface of man's works.

 

[Truth7t7]

the Scripture in the Greek actually points to God cleansing the SURFACE of this earth on that day.

"False Claim" this present earth will be dissolved down to its very elements on (The Day Of The Lord) it will be a completely "New Creation" in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem

 

[HealthyShape]

Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.​

I am not sure what you even mean by that.

From the preterist perspective, it was about the events in the 1st century AD. The chronology of events, from the words of Jesus in Matthew, is:

1. Conflicts, earthquakes, famines (The world famines - during Tiberius and Claudius, several famines. The one mentioned in the book of Acts was in 41 AD)
2. Persecution of Christians from Jews ("beaten in the synagogues") - 50's and 60's probably the most intense
3. The apostles witnessing to all nations and being killed for the name of Jesus - 50's, 60's
4. Armies surrounding Jerusalem
5. The great tribulation for Jerusalem and Judea, unseen from the beginning of the world and never to be seen again (66-70 AD)
6. The coming of the Son of Man ("But in those days, after that tribulation....")
7. The gathering of the elect ("At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds...and He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.")

 

[Davy]

"False Claim" this present earth will be dissolved down to its very elements on (The Day Of The Lord) it will be a completely "New Creation" in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem

The Greek word for "elements" in the below 2 Peter 3:10 verse does NOT mean earthly material matter...

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

That word "elements" is the Greek word stoicheion which means 'something orderly in arrangement', 'a serial'. Strong's No.4747.

Here are other New Testament translations of that Greek word stoicheion. And these below New Testament Scriptures are the only other... ones besides 2 Peter 3 using that Greek word stoicheion...

Gal 4:3
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
KJV

Gal 4:9
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
KJV

Col 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
KJV

Col 2:20
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
KJV

Heb 5:12
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
KJV

Do any of those above Bible Scriptures declare a total destruction of the elements of earthly matter? No, of course not. But they use that same Greek word that Peter used for "elements" in 2 Peter 3. It's because that Greek word is about the rudiments of this world, man's works on the earth. That is what is going to be destroyed on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, man's works and the rudiments of this world burned off this earth, leaving only what God created.

These following verses also stand as proof that 2 Peter 3:10 is NOT about a total destruction of earth matter...

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

 

[Truth7t7]

The Greek word for "elements" in the below 2 Peter 3:10 verse does NOT mean earthly material

Your Claim Is "False"

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Strong’s Definitions G2618
κατακαίω katakaíō, kat-ak-ah'-ee-o; to burn down (to the ground), i.e. consume wholly:—burn (up, utterly).

 

[HealthyShape]

But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
2Pt 3:5-7 (NIV)

Historically, technically, our planet was not formed from waters. The waters in Genesis are a mythological concept, not science. Similarly, the Flood of Noah was not technically over the whole planet, but happened in Mesopotamia.

So, in the similar way, the fire did not need to be literal, but symbolic (however, Romans were known for using fiery shots from catapults massively, it looked like fire falling from heaven - so who knows what Peter saw in some vision).

 

[Davidpt]

I am not sure what you even mean by that.

From the preterist perspective, it was about the events in the 1st century AD. The chronology of events, from the words of Jesus in Matthew, is:

1. Conflicts, earthquakes, famines (The world famines - during Tiberius and Claudius, several famines. The one mentioned in the book of Acts was in 41 AD)
2. Persecution of Christians from Jews ("beaten in the synagogues") - 50's and 60's probably the most intense
3. The apostles witnessing to all nations and being killed for the name of Jesus - 50's, 60's
4. Armies surrounding Jerusalem
5. The great tribulation for Jerusalem and Judea, unseen from the beginning of the world and never to be seen again (66-70 AD)
6. The coming of the Son of Man ("But in those days, after that tribulation....")
7. The gathering of the elect ("At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds...and He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.")

I have noted in the past both Pretribbers and Preterists applying 1 Thessalonians 5:3, for example, to that of the beginning of great tribulation. If Preterists are applying 1 Thessalonians 5:3 to that of the first century involving 70 AD, this means they are obviously applying great tribulation during the DOTL, the fact 1 Thessalonians 5:3 would also be involving Matthew 24:15-21, per their view of things.

Therefore, the OP basically kills 2 birds with one stone, so to speak. Since it debunks both the Pretrib and Preterist interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 5:3, for example. The main point being this. The DOTL meant in the NT can only come as a thief in the night only one time, not multiple different times. Which also means 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, for example, are involving the same DOTL, not different DOTLs that happen at entirely different times. Maybe Preterists already agree 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are involving the same DOTL? And if so, Pretribbers don't also agree as well, that they are involving the same DOTL. In this case both views are wrong even if Preterists agree that both passages are involving the same DOTL events.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 is obviously involving the DOTL since that is when the DOTL comes as a thief in the night, and they shall not escape. Shall not escape great tribulation, though? No, because the DOTL is after great tribulation. Therefore, the DOTL can't come as a thief in the night prior to great tribulation, then come again as a thief in the night after great tribulation. It can't be both. It has to be one or the other and that the OP, for one, shows that it is after great tribulation.

The DOTL involves darkness and the wrath of God, exactly what the 6th seal, for example, is involving. Exactly what Matthew 24:29 is involving. It doesn't matter that the darkness is likely not meaning in the literal sense. What matters is where Scripture reveals this time of darkness fits. It fits after great tribulation, and the OP, for one, proves it.

Therefore, Matthew 24:15-21 can't be involving leading up to 70 AD and 70 AD itself. That period of time involved the wrath of God upon unbelieving Jews. 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is not involving the wrath of God upon unbelieving Jews during the first century. It is involving the DOTL in the end of this age immediately after great tribulation(See Matthew 24:29, for one). Therefore, Matthew 24:15-27 can't be meaning great tribulation in the first century since 2000 years later, when Matthew 24:29 is meaning in relation to 70 AD, is not immediately after anything. Therefore, great tribulation has to be meaning great tribulation in the final days of this age in order for verse 29 to be meaning immediately after.
-------

BTW, I just queried Google this below in order to show I'm not misrepresenting the typical Preterist view in regards to 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

------------------

Me: how do Preterists typically interpret 1 Thessalonians 5:3

AI Overview
For Preterists, 1 Thessalonians 5:3 describes the judgment that fell upon unbelieving Jews in the first century, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70
. They interpret the "sudden destruction" as the military defeat by the Roman army, which was not expected by the Jews who believed they were secure.
The context of "peace and safety"

The Roman perspective. Many preterist scholars see the phrase "peace and safety" (Greek: eirēnē kai asphaleia) as a reference to the Pax Romana, the period of relative peace and stability enforced by the Roman Empire. During this time, the Jewish people lived under a false sense of security, believing they were secure under Roman rule.
The Jewish perspective. Other preterists see "peace and safety" as an expression of the misguided confidence felt by many Jews. The Jewish rebels had gained some victories against the Roman army and may have felt that they were entering a period of independence and security.

The meaning of "sudden destruction"
For Preterists, the "sudden destruction" is the swift and devastating Roman invasion that ended the Jewish-Roman war.

Like a thief: Just as Paul describes the Day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night in 1 Thessalonians 5:2, the Roman siege and destruction of Jerusalem came suddenly and unexpectedly to the non-believing Jews.
Like labor pains: The analogy of "labor pains" points to the progressive intensity of the tribulation period, which began with the siege and culminated in the total destruction of the city and its temple in A.D. 70.

The "they" who will not escape
Preterists identify the "they" who say "peace and safety" and will "not escape" the destruction as the unbelieving generation of Jews who rejected Jesus during his earthly ministry.

The "Day of the Lord" in this context is interpreted as a day of judgment upon this specific first-century generation.
Paul contrasts "they" (unbelievers) with "you, brethren" (the Christian believers in Thessalonica), who were prepared for Christ's coming in judgment upon Jerusalem and thus would escape this fate.

 

[Davy]

Your Claim Is "False"

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Strong’s Definitions G2618
κατακαίω katakaíō, kat-ak-ah'-ee-o; to burn down (to the ground), i.e. consume wholly:—burn (up, utterly).

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Truth7t7 EVADED the Greek word stoicheion for "elements" in the 2 Peter 3 Scripture which is what he has been trying... to claim means earthly material matter, when that is NOT what Greek stoicheion means. Now he is trying to STEER AROUND that Greek word stoicheion for "elements" to try... and prove Peter meant the whole and total destruction of this present earth on the "day of the Lord".

Furthermore, the Hebrews 12:25-29 Scripture lays out just WHAT will be burned up on that future "day of the Lord" by God's consuming fire...

Heb 12:27
27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
KJV

Truth7t7 obviously cannot recall multiple Bible Witnesses of a matter written in other Bible Scripture, like that Hebrews 12 example above. I have seen this problem on many Christian forums where brethren will read a Scripture and claim ipso facto that is all there is to know about a matter, when in reality God gave many, many other Scripture Witnesses of the same matter. It shows they have not studied their Bible enough to have even read those other Scripture Witnesses.

Ps 102:25-26
25 Of old hast Thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of Thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
KJV

That 26th verse sounds like this earth is going to be totally and completely destroyed, doesn't it? I can about guarantee that is how Truth7t7 would see that verse. But what is a "vesture"? In the Hebrew it means a 'garment', a piece of clothing. In the sense of speaking about the earth having a garment, what does that point to? It points to the SURFACE OF THE EARTH as that garment "vesture", NOT the whole earth itself. The earth's garment is what God is going to change on the future "day of the Lord".

When you change a piece of old worn out clothing, you throw it away, but not the person wearing it! It's that simple. And that is what God is going to do with this present earth on that "day of the Lord", He is going to CLEANSE this old earth, not throw it away.

Now consider brethren the following event that ALSO will happen on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes...

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
KJV

HOW can the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of the Lord on that day if the total earth and everything about it is literally destroyed?

Those like Truth7t7 that are on men's doctrines refuse to recognize the Zechariah 14 prophecy of events to happen on that "day of the Lord" and thereafter, which also shows nations on earth that exist today, will continue... to exist on earth after Christ has returned. Egypt is given there as one example.

Therefore BRETHREN IN CHRIST; I strongly recommend you be careful with listening to those who purposefully omit Bible Scripture witness in one place, rejecting it, in favor of keeping a single Scripture witness that does not give all the picture from God in His Word. You will wind up with only a partial Bible when you study with deceived folks like that.

 

[shepherdsword]

DOTL = day of the Lord.


Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit. The DOTL does not fit at the beginning of great tribulation. It fits after great tribulation proved by all of the following. And there is even more passages than the following that proves it except I'm not going to list every single passage that might prove it.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What I have underlined in verse 29 also depicts darkness, and that we are told the time of this darkness does not precede the beginning of great tribulation, it immediately follows great tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What I have underlined in verse 12 and 13 also depicts darkness, and is obviously referring to the same time period and events Matthew 24:29 is.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

The DOTL involves both wrath and fierce anger.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And so does this involve wrath. And that you can't have wrath without fierce anger. The text indicates that the great day of his wrath is come, and not, His great day of wrath already came earlier before the time of the 6th seal. That is a contradiction if it is not until the time of the 6th seal that His great day of wrath has initially come.



Something else I would like to point out. The first trumpet is not meaning chronologically sometime later following the events recorded in the 6th seal. It is not logical that the first trumpet can follow after the 6th seal since the 5th seal must precede the 6th seal, and that the 5th seal, for example, meaning this---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)---is involving the time of the 6th trumpet(Revelation 11:2,7, Revelation 13:5,7,15)

And that Revelation 6:17 is involving the era of time and events that Revelation 11:15,18 is involving.

Therefore, How can trumpet 1 follow the 5th and 6th seal when the 5th seal is involving the 6th trumpet, and that the 6th seal is involving the 7th trumpet? Since when does the number 6 and number 7 precede the number 1 rather than follows it?

IOW, trumpet 1 comes before trumpet 6 and 7. Seriously, who could be that bad at math where they have 6 and 7 meaning before 1 rather than after 1? Nobody, right? Once again, the fact the 6th trumpet involves the 5th seal, the 7th trumpet involves the 6th seal, clearly tells any objective person not placing their doctrinal bias' above that of common sense, that this means that the first trumpet can't be meaning after the 5th and 6th seal in that case, since it causes a mathematical impossibility with the 7 trumpets if trumpet 6 and 7 correlate with seal 5 and 6.

I would also add that the DOTL is the third woe in Rev11