Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Davidpt]

I’m arguing against inconsistency, not necessarily my position. Let’s start with the revelation argument and work backward.

Chronologically, The trumpets are given to the angels AFTER the 7th seal is opened. However, Davidpt “interprets” that the trumpets are actually parallel to seals.

Are we on the same page here so far?

In my view, it is during the 6th seal, for example, when the 7th trumpet sounds and the wrath of God, the DOTL begins. Therefore, in my view the 7th seal is simply setting the stage for the first 6 seals and the 7 trumpets. Otherwise, how does one logically go from the 7th seal to that of the first trumpet, then to the 6th seal and that of the 7th trumpet? That is mathematically absurd.

Once you get to seal 6, 7 trumpet judgment will have been fulfilled

Let's look at this from another angle. Let's look at it from vial 1.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image

According to Revelation 13 there is no mark to take or not take until a first beast ascends out of the sea, a 2nd one out of the earth, and that the 2nd one fulfills Revelation 13:13-18.

By placing vial 1 during trumpet 1 is to then place the 42 month reign of the beast prior to trumpet 1. Yet is is not until the 6th trumpet that the time of the 42 month reign of the beast becomes relevant.

Obviously, God is not pouring His wrath on anyone in Revelation 16:2 before they are even doing these things first. Obviously, everyone doing these things have to all be alive at the same time and being doing these things at the same time. Otherwise, we end up with absurd nonsense that the first vial is being poured out on someone in the 16th century, the 17th century, so on and so on.

Except that is not logical, thus not reasonable. They all have to be alive at the same time since it is absurd that the first vial is poured out hundreds or thousands of different times spanning hundreds or thousands of years.

Here's another angle to look at this from.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Does it sound reasonable, that if 5 of the last seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God, have already been poured out on them, thet they are then going to find a moment to rejoice and find something to be happy about?

They are not rejoicing because the last 7 vials of wrath ended with vial 5 during the 5th trumpet. They never began to begin with. They are rejoicing because the 6 trumpet judgments stopped once the 2Ws are destroyed, per their view, they thinking they have silenced them for good. Except the worst is yet to come. And that is trumpet 7 and the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. IOW, the beginning of the DOTL.

The first 6 trumpet judgments and the plagues they produce can be explained per the following.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Thus was tormenting those upon the earth via the 2ws unleashing these plagues throughout trumpets 1-6. Except trumpet 6 is not the end of the plagues. It is only the end of the plagues involving trumpets 1-6. And like I said, the worst is yet to come, meaning the 7th trumpet which then leads to the 7 vials of wrath per Revelation 16.

 

[grafted branch]

1. I did not say nor imply that ANYTHING Jesus said or did is unimportant. That's on you. For the life of me I cannot understand why you would make that assumption unless it is from a depraved need to feel morally superior based on the conclusion of its implication.

Hold on, I’m not accusing you of saying some of the things Jesus said, which aren’t written, are not important at all. I came to the conclusion that you think the things that Jesus said that aren’t written down are also not important for faith and practice. Faith and practice only. Is that correct or not?

2. Paragraph #2 of your reply is a distraction, is not applicable and therefore needs no rebuttal.

Paragraph two is a copy and paste of Micah 4:2 KJV. If you think it takes place in the millennium then it’s applicable and not a distraction, it’s something that has to be addressed.

3. Again you resort to the absurd. What is your mission here?

My mission is to have an intelligent conversation, every end time view has problems and it’s not absurd to question what will happen in a Premil literal millennium.

4. Heb 11:1 explains what faith is and what it is for. During the Millenial Kingdom there will no longer be any need for faith since Jesus will be physically present with us. No need for faith in the Unseen nor for the Blessed Hope. Both will have been realized.

Sure, a millennium without faith and hope, ok. That doesn’t really answer the question as to what “His ways” Jesus is teaching in the millennium. It can’t be anything additional to what’s in the Bible right now, right? And if He’s teaching people that means they’re learning something, right? This isn’t rocket science, it’s common sense.

5. We will know even as we are known. The Redeemed will rule and reign with Christ. No need for a Bible.

Well, heaven and earth will pass away but His words will never pass away. If there’s no need for the Bible then what is Jesus teaching in the millennium?

6. I really do not believe you are actually THINKING about your questions.

I believe you might not have considered what a Premil millennium looks like. Maybe you just took the Bible literally without considering what that reality would entail.

 

[grafted branch]

1. I did not say nor imply that ANYTHING Jesus said or did is unimportant. That's on you. For the life of me I cannot understand why you would make that assumption unless it is from a depraved need to feel morally superior based on the conclusion of its implication.

Hold on, I’m not accusing you of saying some of the things Jesus said, which aren’t written, are not important at all. I came to the conclusion that you think the things that Jesus said that aren’t written down are also not important for faith and practice. Faith and practice only. Is that correct or not?

2. Paragraph #2 of your reply is a distraction, is not applicable and therefore needs no rebuttal.

Paragraph two is a copy and paste of Micah 4:2 KJV. If you think it takes place in the millennium then it’s applicable and not a distraction, it’s something that has to be addressed.

3. Again you resort to the absurd. What is your mission here?

My mission is to have an intelligent conversation, every end time view has problems and it’s not absurd to question what will happen in a Premil literal millennium.

4. Heb 11:1 explains what faith is and what it is for. During the Millenial Kingdom there will no longer be any need for faith since Jesus will be physically present with us. No need for faith in the Unseen nor for the Blessed Hope. Both will have been realized.

Sure, a millennium without faith and hope, ok. That doesn’t really answer the question as to what “His ways” Jesus is teaching in the millennium. It can’t be anything additional to what’s in the Bible right now, right? And if He’s teaching people that means they’re learning something, right? This isn’t rocket science, it’s common sense.

5. We will know even as we are known. The Redeemed will rule and reign with Christ. No need for a Bible.

Well, heaven and earth will pass away but His words will never pass away. If there’s no need for the Bible then what is Jesus teaching in the millennium?

6. I really do not believe you are actually THINKING about your questions.

I believe you might not have considered what a Premil millennium looks like. Maybe you just took the Bible literally without considering what that reality would entail.

 

[Davidpt]

Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Many Premil place this passage as happening in the millennium. Do you think Jesus will be just strictly quoting from the 1769 Cambridge edition of the AV1611 when He teaches during the millennium and not giving any other information important for faith and practice?

My view is that the last days began with Christ's first coming about 2,000 years ago, and that the last day of the last days is the millennium. Therefore, I believe some aspects of Micah 4 are applicable now, while other aspects await their fulfillment during the millennial reign.

Before looking at Micah 4, consider what Jesus Himself said concerning the period leading up to the end.

Matthew 24:6-8

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Notice that Jesus says these things characterize the period before the end. Among those characteristics are nations continuing to wage war against one another.

Now compare that with Micah.

Micah 4:3

...and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

These two passages cannot be describing the same geopolitical conditions during the same period.

Jesus says that before the end--

Nation shall rise against nation.

Micah says---

Nation shall not lift up a sword against nation.

Jesus says there will be---

Wars and rumours of wars.

Micah says---

Neither shall they learn war any more.

Those are two very different descriptions of the nations.

Micah is not speaking merely of individual believers enjoying spiritual peace. He is speaking about nations and, by implication, the governments that rule those nations. Nations do not learn war apart from their governments maintaining armies, military training, and preparations for conflict.

So here is my question.

If Micah 4:3 is being fulfilled throughout the present Church age, where is the historical evidence? Can anyone point to even two nations during the past two thousand years that have ceased learning war because warfare itself has become obsolete? What governments have permanently abandoned military preparation because there was no longer any need for it?

History records no such period. Instead, the nations have continued to prepare for war and to wage war, exactly as Jesus said they would prior to the end.

As for the original question about Christ teaching during the millennium, no Premil I know believes Jesus will simply stand in Jerusalem reading from the 1769 Cambridge edition of the Authorized Version. Of course the Messiah will teach His people directly. But acknowledging that fact does not determine when Micah 4 is fulfilled. The timing must be determined by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

When I compare Micah 4 with Matthew 24, I see Jesus describing an age in which nations continue to wage war until the end is reached, while Micah describes an age in which nations no longer wage war or even prepare for it. That is why I conclude Micah 4:3 awaits its complete fulfillment in the millennial reign of Christ.

 

[grafted branch]

If Micah 4:3 is being fulfilled throughout the present Church age, where is the historical evidence? Can anyone point to even two nations during the past two thousand years that have ceased learning war because warfare itself has become obsolete? What governments have permanently abandoned military preparation because there was no longer any need for it?

That’s a good point you bring up, if we take Micah 4 literally it can’t be taking place currently because governments are still at war and learning war.

In Joshua 8:1-35 Joshua used a war tactic, specifically an ambush, in the battle against Ai. Since His words will never pass away, how can war never be learned in the millennium when His words contain war and war tactics?

If we conclude that Micah 4 can never be fulfilled in a literal manner then we have to look for a spiritual interpretation.

As for the original question about Christ teaching during the millennium, no Premil I know believes Jesus will simply stand in Jerusalem reading from the 1769 Cambridge edition of the Authorized Version. Of course the Messiah will teach His people directly. But acknowledging that fact does not determine when Micah 4 is fulfilled. The timing must be determined by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

If Jesus is teaching new information in the millennium that isn’t currently in the Bible then I would think it’s considered the word of God just like the rest of the Bible and should be added to the Bible.

 

[Davidpt]

In Joshua 8:1-35 Joshua used a war tactic, specifically an ambush, in the battle against Ai. Since His words will never pass away, how can war never be learned in the millennium when His words contain war and war tactics?

IMO, your point is moot. And here is why. Let's assume there is no millennium that follows the 2nd coming. Are we to then assume Scriptures will never be opened again and that Jesus nor anyone will ever teach from the Bible again? That nothing ever gets settled one way or the other in regard to who was interpreting something correctly and who wasn't? That it remains a mystery forever?

But if Scripture is opened again, even if there is no millennium that follows, and that Christ is teaching from them, what happens when He gets to Joshua 8:1-35 then? Why would you argue in one manner if a millennium follows, but then argue in an entirely different manner if no millennium follows? And that both scenarios can't avoid Joshua 8:1-35 no matter what.

 

[Truth7t7]

In my view, it is during the 6th seal, for example, when the 7th trumpet sounds and the wrath of God, the DOTL begins. Therefore, in my view the 7th seal is simply setting the stage for the first 6 seals and the 7 trumpets. Otherwise, how does one logically go from the 7th seal to that of the first trumpet, then to the 6th seal and that of the 7th trumpet? That is mathematically absurd.

Once you get to seal 6, 7 trumpet judgment will have been fulfilled

Scripture clearly shows your claim to be false, (the 7th Trump or 7th voice of the angel) is the 3rd woe (The End)

Scripture "Clearly Shows" that the 7th seal must be opened before the 7 angels sound, simple, clear, and before your eyes

"After" the 7th seal is opened the 7 angels are prepared to sound, simple, clear, and before your eyes

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 8:1-2 & 6KJV
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
---------‐---------------------------------------‐------
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Revelation 10:7KJV
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15KJV
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

At least you are consistent.
I saw you acting this way to other people in this thread also.

Personal Attacks = He Lost The Debate And He Knows It, And We Know It

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[claninja]

In my view, it is during the 6th seal, for example, when the 7th trumpet sounds and the wrath of God, the DOTL begins. Therefore, in my view the 7th seal is simply setting the stage for the first 6 seals and the 7 trumpets. Otherwise, how does one logically go from the 7th seal to that of the first trumpet, then to the 6th seal and that of the 7th trumpet? That is mathematically absurd.

Once you get to seal 6, 7 trumpet judgment will have been fulfilled

Let's look at this from another angle. Let's look at it from vial 1.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image

According to Revelation 13 there is no mark to take or not take until a first beast ascends out of the sea, a 2nd one out of the earth, and that the 2nd one fulfills Revelation 13:13-18.

By placing vial 1 during trumpet 1 is to then place the 42 month reign of the beast prior to trumpet 1. Yet is is not until the 6th trumpet that the time of the 42 month reign of the beast becomes relevant.

Obviously, God is not pouring His wrath on anyone in Revelation 16:2 before they are even doing these things first. Obviously, everyone doing these things have to all be alive at the same time and being doing these things at the same time. Otherwise, we end up with absurd nonsense that the first vial is being poured out on someone in the 16th century, the 17th century, so on and so on.

Except that is not logical, thus not reasonable. They all have to be alive at the same time since it is absurd that the first vial is poured out hundreds or thousands of different times spanning hundreds or thousands of years.

Here's another angle to look at this from.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Does it sound reasonable, that if 5 of the last seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God, have already been poured out on them, thet they are then going to find a moment to rejoice and find something to be happy about?

They are not rejoicing because the last 7 vials of wrath ended with vial 5 during the 5th trumpet. They never began to begin with. They are rejoicing because the 6 trumpet judgments stopped once the 2Ws are destroyed, per their view, they thinking they have silenced them for good. Except the worst is yet to come. And that is trumpet 7 and the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. IOW, the beginning of the DOTL.

The first 6 trumpet judgments and the plagues they produce can be explained per the following.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Thus was tormenting those upon the earth via the 2ws unleashing these plagues throughout trumpets 1-6. Except trumpet 6 is not the end of the plagues. It is only the end of the plagues involving trumpets 1-6. And like I said, the worst is yet to come, meaning the 7th trumpet which then leads to the 7 vials of wrath per Revelation 16.

I’m not asking about reasonable. I am asking where does revelation chronologically place the 7 trumpets?

Chronologically, the trumpets are not given to the angels until after the 7th seal is opened:

• Revelation 8:1-2 1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them

so my question is, do you acknowledge that the natural reading is that trumpets are given after the 7th seal BUT you “interpret” it as 7th trumpet being blown at the 6th seal?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

At least you are consistent.
I saw you acting this way to other people in this thread also.

Thanks. I try to be consistent, so it's nice to have confirmation. Yes, I have seen you act the way you did with me with others as well with your frequent personal insults. How interesting that you have a problem with me treating you the way you treat others. Think about that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Personal Attacks = He Lost The Debate And He Knows It, And We Know It

You lose almost every debate that you're in. No one agrees with your lone wolf Amillennialist-Dispensationalist combo beliefs. What hypocrites you both are. So, we should just ignore your personal attacks?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Diversion Alert: You conveniently have given complete disregard to my claims of Daniel 9:27 seen below "Why"?

(EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION)

"Daniel's AOD Is Future" and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" The Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This "Future" evil figure (The Beast) will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future" (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I have addressed ALL of your arguments MANY times, so don't pretend otherwise. You are the one using diversion tactics to avoid addressing my arguments. But, oh no! I guess I'm personally attacking you by pointing that out.

 

[grafted branch]

IMO, your point is moot. And here is why. Let's assume there is no millennium that follows the 2nd coming. Are we to then assume Scriptures will never be opened again and that Jesus nor anyone will ever teach from the Bible again? That nothing ever gets settled one way or the other in regard to who was interpreting something correctly and who wasn't? That it remains a mystery forever?

But if Scripture is opened again, even if there is no millennium that follows, and that Christ is teaching from them, what happens when He gets to Joshua 8:1-35 then? Why would you argue in one manner if a millennium follows, but then argue in an entirely different manner if no millennium follows? And that both scenarios can't avoid Joshua 8:1-35 no matter what.

We know this, the Holy Spirit teaches us all things.

1 John 2:27 … but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Two believers, both with the Holy Spirit teaching them all things, can have vastly different views of the millennium. So, to give an answer to your rhetorical questions, yes it’s entirely possible that which teaching is correct never gets settled, at least while we’re alive on earth.

We know from 2 Corinthians 12:9 that His power is made perfect in weakness. It could be that God never intended for us to all come to the same conclusion about the millennium, our studying and searching the scriptures may be what God ultimately wants and He accomplishes that through our inability to settle which teaching is correct, that is correct with absolute certainty.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m arguing against inconsistency, not necessarily my position.

Hmmm. Maybe you should make that more clear when you're doing that then.

Let’s start with the revelation argument and work backward.

Chronologically, The trumpets are given to the angels AFTER the 7th seal is opened. However, Davidpt “interprets” that the trumpets are actually parallel to seals.

Are we on the same page here so far?

Yes, he does and I agree with that, but I think the vials are parallel also and, for some reason, he doesn't. I see that as him being inconsistent.

The book of Revelation is not just a chronological telling of events, so it does not matter if the seven trumpets are described after the seven seals. It does NOT say that the angels are given the seven trumpets after the 7th seal event is over. That's your assumption, but it does not actually say that. We see the description of the seven trumpets after the description of the seventh seal, but nowhere does it say the angels are given the seven trumpets after the seventh seal event is over.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My view is that the last days began with Christ's first coming about 2,000 years ago, and that the last day of the last days is the millennium.

Do you think that each day of the last days is 1,000 years in duration? Which would mean that almost 2 of the last days have been completed so far?

Peter indicated that the last days refers to the time period during which scoffers scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming (2 Peter 3:3-4). No one will be scoffing once He actually comes, so how can the last days continue after that?

Therefore, I believe some aspects of Micah 4 are applicable now, while other aspects await their fulfillment during the millennial reign.

What aspects of Micah 4 do you believe are applicable now?

 

[JimKnox]

Thanks. I try to be consistent, so it's nice to have confirmation. Yes, I have seen you act the way you did with me with others as well with your frequent personal insults. How interesting that you have a problem with me treating you the way you treat others. Think about that.

I don't care how you treat me, pal.
I noted how YOU treat OTHERS so it was no surprise that you treat me the same.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't care how you treat me, pal.
I noted how YOU treat OTHERS so it was no surprise that you treat me the same.

And I saw how you treat others, so it was no surprise for you to call me a "clown man". Pal. You can dish it out, but can't take it just like so many others on this forum.

 

[Truth7t7]

I have addressed ALL of your arguments MANY times, so don't pretend otherwise. You are the one using diversion tactics to avoid addressing my arguments. But, oh no! I guess I'm personally attacking you by pointing that out.

I don't recall your belief and teaching regarding Daniel 9:27, I look forward to your response, waiting

(EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION)

"Daniel's AOD Is Future" and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" The Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This "Future" evil figure (The Beast) will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future" (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't recall your belief and teaching regarding Daniel 9:27, I look forward to your response, waiting

Why don't you recall that? Do you have a memory problem? I've talked about how I interpret Daniel 9:24-27 many times. How can you not remember? Daniel 9:27 is about the confirming of the new covenant by the blood of Jesus that put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings and the consummation of making it desolate refers to the previous verse where it mentions the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, which occurred in 70 AD. The reason that occurred is because the Jews rejected Christ. It was God's wrath against them for failing to accept Jesus and what He did for them and they instead continued living under the curse of the law of the old covenant.

 

[Truth7t7]

My view is that the last days began with Christ's first coming about 2,000 years ago, and that the last day of the last days is the millennium.

Jesus Christ taught that "The Last Day" is the time of "Final Judgement"?

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.