Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

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mailmandan

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Here again, I think you missed a key point.

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off

Otherwise you too will be cut off. Cut off from what? You were not ever a part of the natural branches. You, at most, could have been grafted in. The Gentile who is grafted in is among the saved. It is the once grafted in who will be cut off if they don't "continue in his kindness"
Your point is that believers were cut off and lost their salvation which is not Paul's point. The Israelites were the natural branches and it was not because they were all saved. Paul says Gentiles (plural) and not Gentile (singular). Has God cast away His people? Certainly not! (vs. 1) I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. (vs. 11) And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.. (vss. 23-26) You need to read this in context. When did and does all this take place?
 
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mailmandan

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You covered it thoroughly wrong. It is your ears failing to hear God's word. I haven't lashed out at you. I have only pointed out your error in understanding God's word.

By the way, which of those six characteristics listed in Hebrews 6:4-6 do you think describes the unbeliever?
You said I "failed so miserably in my rendition of Hebrews 6:4-6" and that "my interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 is truly pathetic."

That is lashing out. You also have no rebuttal to my thorough explanations. Just insults. You need to go back and read post #19 slowly and carefully and allow some time for the truth to sink in.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Are you one of those who believes that in becoming one in Christ that you give up your free will? Or perhaps you are one who rejects the idea of the free will for mankind altogether.
Man always has free will

Mans free will is never removed, Jonah is proof of this. While God prety much pointed him against his will to do something. He did not force him to do it (change his will)
 
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Eternally Grateful

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You covered it thoroughly wrong. It is your ears failing to hear God's word. I haven't lashed out at you. I have only pointed out your error in understanding God's word.

By the way, which of those six characteristics listed in Hebrews 6:4-6 do you think describes the unbeliever?
People mess up Hebrews 6 because they want to force the author to say something he never said

The author literally said, It is impossible (what is impossible) If they fall away TO RENEW thEM TO REPENTANCE.

The author literally says, fig salvation could be lost , they could never be resaved.. And saying they could puts christ to open shame crucifying him again For themselves.

The author is mocking the belief they were still under law. That a person could fall away, and thus need of sacrifice again.

He says plainly, if salvation could be lost. You would be lost forever. Unless Christ came and died again.
 

JBO

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Your point is that believers were cut off and lost their salvation which is not Paul's point.
That is Paul's point. He is not speaking to unbelievers; rather he is speaking to believers.

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

There is a contrast there between the severity toward those who have fallen and kindness to YOU, PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. That is the contrast between the lost and the saved.
 

Eternally Grateful

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That is Paul's point. He is not speaking to unbelievers; rather he is speaking to believers.

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

There is a contrast there between the severity toward those who have fallen and kindness to YOU, PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. That is the contrast between the lost and the saved.
He is speaking of Isreal (blinded in part/natural branches) and Gentiles (the unnatural branches)

Israel was cut off. Gentiles rose. But he is warning us not to be to proud. Because we can fall just as much as they can fall
 
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Taken

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Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?
OP ^

Yes….a believer can lose their salvation.


Glory to God,
Taken
 

JBO

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He is speaking of Isreal (blinded in part/natural branches) and Gentiles (the unnatural branches)

Israel was cut off. Gentiles rose. But he is warning us not to be to proud. Because we can fall just as much as they can fall
All have fallen. It is only the saved who "stand fast though faith" (Rom 11:20). They are the ones who receive God's kindness.
 

mailmandan

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That is Paul's point. He is not speaking to unbelievers; rather he is speaking to believers.

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

There is a contrast there between the severity toward those who have fallen and kindness to YOU, PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. That is the contrast between the lost and the saved.
All the letters in the NT written by Paul are TO believers, yet that still does not mean that EVERYONE mixed in with a group of "professing" believers are all genuine believers. Continuing in his kindness confirms they were saved. The lost do not continue.

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Who is they? When does this grafting in again take place? Remember context and don't simply remain fixated on verse 22.

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? When does this take place?
 
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JBO

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Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?
OP ^

Yes….a believer can lose their salvation.


Glory to God,
Taken
Strictly speaking it is one who was once a believer, but is a believer no longer, who loses his salvation.

The real question is, "can a believer become a non-believer?". And the answer is yes,
 
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JBO

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All the letters in the NT written by Paul are TO believers, yet that still does not mean that EVERYONE mixed in with a group of "professing" believers are all genuine believers. Continuing in his kindness confirms they were saved.
Ah yes. Now it comes down to the case of "professing believers" versus "genuine believers". That distinction is an oxymoron.
The lost do not continue.
The lost were never there in the first place. You cannot continue in what where you never were in.
 

mailmandan

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Strictly speaking it is one who was once a believer, but is a believer no longer, who loses his salvation.

The real question is, "can a believer become a non-believer?". And the answer is yes,
Describe to me what YOU believe constitutes a genuine believer. What exactly must we believe to be saved? What are examples of things believed by "nominal" Christians which fall short of saving belief?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Strictly speaking it is one who was once a believer, but is a believer no longer, who loses his salvation.

The real question is, "can a believer become a non-believer?". And the answer is yes,
The answer is no

John said they were never of us.

Why do you not listen to John?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Ah yes. Now it comes down to the case of "professing believers" versus "genuine believers". That distinction is an oxymoron.

The lost were never there in the first place. You cannot continue in what where you never were in.
That is exactly what John says

they were never of us, if they were of us they never would have departed
 

JBO

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Describe to me what YOU believe constitutes a genuine believer. What exactly must we believe to be saved? What are examples of things believed by "nominal" Christians which fall short of saving belief?
You are the one bringing up the genuine versus professing believer. I do not ever draw such a distinction. I do not think you will find such in God's word. But perhaps you could give us what you think are the distinguishing features of each.
 

HIM

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Once again, I thoroughly covered Hebrews 6:4-6 in context in post #19 and I also properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. You just don't have ears to hear. I fully understand what salvation is really about and I don't need your pity. The sword of the Spirit hurts when it cuts which explains why you lashed out at me.
No you didn't.

The answer is NO. Now in regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened -....
All that to try to explain away what the text actually says. Shame no one gets that from a simple reading of what the text plainly states. That alone should be and probably was a red flag for those whom put forth the doctrine of OSAS initially.

Quit simply My friend We can't fall away from something if we are not there. We can't be renewed again if we have not been renewed in the first place. Eternal salvation is only for those of us whom obey, attentively hearken unto Him as verse 5:9 puts forth. And as chapter 6 continues in verses 12-15 Through faith and patience we inherit the promises as Abraham patiently endured and obtained the promise.. And if that is not enough context for us let's back up to chapter 3 and 4. Where it plainly states that we should not follow after the sample of unbelief, that of disobedience, "them that sinned, whose carcasses fell in the desert" that Israel did prior to entering into the promise land. And that we are Christ's house only if we hold fast our confidence firm unto the end. (3:6) And what of chapter 2 where the writer begins with an admonition including himself in respect giving earnest heed to that which they heard from the Son and them that heard Him lest they let them slip. For if that which was heard from angels was steadfast that every transgression and disobedience received a just reward how shall we escape that which was first spoken by the Lord and them that heard Him.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
 

mailmandan

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Ah yes. Now it comes down to the case of "professing believers" versus "genuine believers". That distinction is an oxymoron.

The lost were never there in the first place. You cannot continue in what where you never were in.
There is no oxymoron between "professing" believers and "genuine believers." There are those who simply "profess" but do not possess. So, you don't believe there are "professing" Christians (nominal Christians) in scripture who are not genuine believers? You would have to be very naive to believe that. There are still "nominal" Christians who are corporately in outward covenant with Christ, so they were still there. You can fail to continue in what you claimed to be in.

In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

So, those who went out from genuine believers were not of them. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians in scripture and in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.