Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?

[Episkopos]

Some will say that sin is ingrained in our mortal bodies. Yet no ultrasound or MRI will ever find this sin in our bodies.

That is because the problem is a spiritual one....undetected and undetectable by human means.

Now in our time we have many unbelievers in the church that say that Jesus Christ is INSUFFICIENT to heal us from our spiritual bondage to sin. Somehow HIS death is not enough to set us free. Instead, these unbelievers see Jesus as just another animal to be sacrificed for their ongoing bondage to sin. We are not free indeed they say in direct contradiction to Jesus and His followeres who have written their testimony. That testimony is mocked these days. The mainstream is headed downstream very quickly and will find a sad end over the falls of men onto the rocks of judgment .

 

[aspen]

Unfortunately, claiming to be sinless only hurts everyone in the church because it sets a standard that is too high for human beings to achieve in our mortal state and promotes Christians to work their sanctification on their own and to lie about being sin-free when the inevitably sin. It also promotes fear and a god who abandons us when we are not meeting his standard.

This teaching is very harmful. It should also be mentioned that Jesus never claimed to be sinless - He let His actions speak for themselves.

 

[Jake]

It's not human beings who overcome sin, it's CHRIST IN US that overcomes, He is the overcomer! People are stuck in that we are helpless, hopeless human beings, defeated. Does the Bible tell us we are conquerors? YES! Doesn't it say "to those who overcome"? YES. Jesus was already victorious, why do believers remain in a defeated life?

We have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I, but Christ living in me. We are living His life now, we are not our own, we were bought with a price.

 

[aspen]

It's not human beings who overcome sin, it's CHRIST IN US that overcomes, He is the overcomer! People are stuck in that we are helpless, hopeless human beings, defeated. Does the Bible tell us we are conquerors? YES! Doesn't it say "to those who overcome"? YES. Jesus was already victorious, why do believers remain in a defeated life?

We have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I, but Christ living in me. We are living His life now, we are not our own, we were bought with a price.

I have no problem with Christians being transformed during sanctification - I do have a problem with Christians who say they have been transformed overnight and wonder why other Christians are wallowing in their sins. This way of thinking breeds judgmental attitudes and it calls into question a person's faith - as if Christians who still fall into sin are not really faithful and that is why they cannot be transformed - in the end, they are blamed for their inability to stop sinning completely. If it is Christ who takes away all sinful behavior, why are Christians blamed for it when they continue to sin? This contradiction leads to lying and denial of sins.

I remember attending a Pentecostal Church where people who were honest about not having the gift of tongues were placed in a lower class of Christians who had no experienced the second baptism - all the classicism achieved was to promote lying.

 

[Episkopos]

Unfortunately, claiming to be sinless only hurts everyone in the church because it sets a standard that is too high for human beings to achieve in our mortal state and promotes Christians to work their sanctification on their own and to lie about being sin-free when the inevitably sin. It also promotes fear and a god who abandons us when we are not meeting his standard.

This teaching is very harmful. It should also be mentioned that Jesus never claimed to be sinless - He let His actions speak for themselves.

It is very harmful to negate what Jesus accomplished on the cross. It is eternally harmful. A disciple learns to walk in the power of Christ. As he does this he realizes that the world no longer has a pull on Him. If you listen to the old hymns you will hear a lot of "harmful" testimonies that line up with the truth of the gospel.

The new nature is just that...it is new!! We are unused to walking in a nature other than the old one. So it takes a lot of "un-training" so that we no longer walk according to the old ways but rather have faith in God and walk in the new nature. We are to "put on" Christ. This does not mean to fool Christ...as in ..you're putting me on!!!! It means we enter INTO HIS life. In order to do this we must experience His death and the end of what we once were. Some call this process...conversion....others...transformation.

So a new Christian babe will still sin because he has bad habits. But if we look only to Christ and deny the old ways we will see something new.

How many baby Christians are badly taught? How many are not even regenerate in the Spirit?

So we are to make disciples for Christ to be indwelt by Him in this new life in the Spirit.

I have no problem with Christians being transformed during sanctification - I do have a problem with Christians who say they have been transformed overnight and wonder why other Christians are wallowing in their sins. This way of thinking breeds judgmental attitudes and it calls into question a person's faith - as if Christians who still fall into sin are not really faithful and that is why they cannot be transformed - in the end, they are blamed for their inability to stop sinning completely. If it is Christ who takes away all sinful behavior, why are Christians blamed for it when they continue to sin? This contradiction leads to lying and denial of sins.

I remember attending a Pentecostal Church where people who were honest about not having the gift of tongues were placed in a lower class of Christians who had no experienced the second baptism - all the classicism achieved was to promote lying.

Who is talking about an overnight maturity? We can put on Christ immediately...yes...since it is not by works but by faith. BUT, it takes time to realize just what kind of walk we are being called to. Many never even get to first base. The devil is working overtime to keep believers AWAY from the victory in Christ. We show WHO we think is right by either continuing in sin or else giving over our lives to Christ to be controlled by Him. It is our choices and faith that determine our works...whether they be entirely our own...or else HIM working through us.

1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[aspen]

It is very harmful to negate what Jesus accomplished on the cross.

Jesus sacrificed His live for the forgiveness of sins, not the removal of sins. I think it is dangerous to add to the gospel.

It is eternally harmful. A disciple learns to walk in the power of Christ. As he does this he realizes that the world no longer has a pull on Him. If you listen to the old hymns you will hear a lot of "harmful" testimonies that line up with the truth of the gospel.

I agree that Christians now have the ability to make good choices - this is the freedom from sin that is talked about in the Bible. He no longer has to sin, but that does not mean that he has a new power to stop sinning completely. Sometimes Christians make less than good choices - sometimes Christians have to choose between two sinful choices - sometimes Christians are weak - sometimes Christians make a sinful choice without realizing it is sinful. Just because it is 'old' doesn't mean it is better - that is the lie within fundamentalism.

The new nature is just that...it is new!! We are unused to walking in a nature other than the old one. So it takes a lot of "un-training" so that we no longer walk according to the old ways but rather have faith in God and walk in the new nature. We are to "put on" Christ. This does not mean to fool Christ...as in ..you're putting me on!!!! It means we enter INTO HIS life. In order to do this we must experience His death and the end of what we once were. Some call this process...conversion....others...transformation.

I call it sanctification and it takes a lifetime of practicing love before we can love completely unselfishly.

So a new Christian babe will still sin because he has bad habits. But if we look only to Christ and deny the old ways we will see something new.

All people - Christians too - are inherently selfish - yes Christ can change this pattern of behavior, but it takes a long time of hit and miss. Everyday we live unselfishly, we get closer to transformation.

How many baby Christians are badly taught? How many are not even regenerate in the Spirit?

There are many out there that do not understand what sanctification means - they do not realize that as Christians they need to make an effort to practice unselfish love all the time in order to be transformed. The reason for this misunderstanding is the Protestant overboard idea that we play no role in our salvation, which is true, but the over-emphasis on this teaching, that justification is from God alone has moved into the arena of sanctification, as well. So instead of simply teaching that we are saved by Christ (justification), many Christians now mistakenly believe that we are also transformed immediately by Christ (sanctification), as well - so they proceed to live as they have always lived. It is the problem of 'easy salvation', which is often seen in many churches.

So we are to make disciples for Christ to be indwelt by Him in this new life in the Spirit.

Which takes a lifetime of practice. Life is messy and that is why we need a savior everyday.

 

[Jake]

Overcoming sin is a YES in Christ, if someone is having a problem with overcoming a sin in their life, remember the blood bought promises we have, if we forget them then we are faithless and are in unbelief. If it's bitterness we struggle with, we remember that God is the avenger, they WILL be avenged by Him, if it's fear God tells us - do not fear for He is with me. If it's another sin we're dealing with we remember with God all things are possible - including overcoming sin, if it's coveting, we remember God provides all of our needs. Just memorize these promises and when temptation comes, remember them. This is how we learn to walk in His Spirit.

Jesus does not want us to remain in our sins, what would be the point, we are conforming (..ing means process) to His image, how can we do that AND continue in sin?

It might take a lifetime for those who do not hold onto and believe the promises of God.

 

[Episkopos]

You are mixing up grace with maturity. We can walk in the Light RIGHT NOW by faith. We do not earn this...it is by faith. What is difficult is to remain there and not look at the world for what we want. It is like Peter walking on water by faith as he kept his eyes on Jesus. But when he looked away he began to sink.

So we can walk EXACTLY like Jesus in a moment through grace. But our selfishness makes us stray from THAT place in the heavenlies.

WE DO have victory in Jesus Christ.

Don't belittle the power of God for the sake of the immaturity of those who claim to believe.

Overcoming sin is a YES in Christ, if someone is having a problem with overcoming a sin in their life, remember the blood bought promises we have, if we forget them then we are faithless and are in unbelief. If it's bitterness we struggle with, we remember that God is the avenger, they WILL be avenged by Him, if it's fear God tells us - do not fear for He is with me. If it's another sin we're dealing with we remember with God all things are possible - including overcoming sin, if it's coveting, we remember God provides all of our needs. Just memorize these promises and when temptation comes, remember them. This is how we learn to walk in His Spirit.

Jesus does not want us to remain in our sins, what would be the point, we are conforming (..ing means process) to His image, how can we do that AND continue in sin?

It might take a lifetime for those who do not hold onto and believe the promises of God.

Well said...it is to our shame if it takes too long...we are like the monkey who takes hold of a shiny object in a trap but refuses to let go. The trap is made so that the monkey can easily put his hand in and out of. But the monkey wants the shiny object so much that he stays trapped there so as to be killed for his meat by the bushmen. The trap is designed to NOT allow a clenched fist to go through. Likewise the love and lust of the world keeps our hand stuck or rather we remain with one foot in the world....and become as unprofitable servants.

The excuse that we can't overcome today by the costly grace of God is both a sham and a disgrace to God.

 

[aspen]

You are mixing up grace with maturity. We can walk in the Light RIGHT NOW by faith. We do not earn this...it is by faith. What is difficult is to remain there and not look at the world for what we want. It is like Peter walking on water by faith as he kept his eyes on Jesus. But when he looked away he began to sink.

So we can walk EXACTLY like Jesus in a moment through grace. But our selfishness makes us stray from THAT place in the heavenlies.

WE DO have victory in Jesus Christ.

Don't belittle the power of God for the sake of the immaturity of those who claim to believe.

The belief that you are ascribing to and promoting has already reaped the prejudice I feared - you've created a false category for people who recognize their sins, so that you can label them as 'those who claim to believe". Don't you see.....this is simply a way for you to exalt yourself, under false pretenses, above other Christians? Rather than 'giving Christ the glory', you are simply refusing to recognize your own sin.

Well said...it is to our shame if it takes too long...we are like the monkey who takes hold of a shiny object in a trap but refuses to let go. The trap is made so that the monkey can easily put his hand in and out of. But the monkey wants the shiny object so much that he stays trapped there so as to be killed for his meat by the bushmen. The trap is designed to NOT allow a clenched fist to go through. Likewise the love and lust of the world keeps our hand stuck or rather we remain with one foot in the world....and become as unprofitable servants.

It IS sort of like the monkey - neither is equipped to succeed. Why do you blame humans for all personal failures, without recognizing our partnership with Christ in our sanctification? Do you think God needs this bone you seem to be throwing Him? It sounds like pandering to me. God is not insecure. Sometimes I think Christians believe God is the Big Narcissist in the Sky - the guy with the fragile ego that needs to be pandered to all the time - as if our sacrifice of praise consists of false humility.

The excuse that we can't overcome today by the costly grace of God is both a sham and a disgrace to God.

You are setting yourself up for failure. You standards for Christian behavior is higher than God's and lacks His mercy. It reminds me of a certain milestone being tied around someone's neck......

 

[Episkopos]

The early church had Christ as their standard and Lord. Today there is no standard...just a human standard that is hypocritical. It says that you cannot stop sinning...but you should try to not make it look too bad...hide your sins etc...Basically hypocrisy!

And the people love to have it so.

The alternative to that is to be constantly repenting every moment...not a good witness of victory...but rather an admission to a constant defeat.

The truth is that we have access to grace through Jesus Christ. There is power for those who would believe and forsake this world and the lust thereof to walk in victory through Christ. How many need to relearn the gospel from the very beginning...or else unlearn the propaganda they have received as if it were the truth.

The gospel is according to a living power or else it is a fabrication and fable from men.



The millstone is for them who walk lawlessly and deny the power of Christ saying that no one can possibly do better than them.

 

[aspen]

The early church had Christ as their standard and Lord. Today there is no standard...just a human standard that is hypocritical. It says that you cannot stop sinning...but you should try to not make it look too bad...hide your sins etc...Basically hypocrisy!

And the people love to have it so.

The alternative to that is to be constantly repenting every moment...not a good witness of victory...but rather an admission to a constant defeat.

The truth is that we have access to grace through Jesus Christ. There is power for those who would believe and forsake this world and the lust thereof to walk in victory through Christ. How many need to relearn the gospel from the very beginning...or else unlearn the propaganda they have received as if it were the truth.

The gospel is according to a living power or else it is a fabrication and fable from men.



The millstone is for them who walk lawlessly and deny the power of Christ saying that no one can possibly do better than them.

You're chasing ghosts! God gave us enough truth in the Bible and His church to nurture our sanctification - God the Father gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us along the way. What more do you want?? Believing that the Early Church was more pristine and Holier than it is today is a fundamentalist's pipe dream. Stop trying to raise the bar beyond human capacity - God is our guide in our sanctification, not you! It looks like you are trying the same tactics the Pharisees were attempting to use, but instead of doing it with doctrine, you are using morality.

 

[Jake]

You're chasing ghosts! God gave us enough truth in the Bible and His church to nurture our sanctification - God the Father gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us along the way. What more do you want?? Believing that the Early Church was more pristine and Holier than it is today is a fundamentalist's pipe dream. Stop trying to raise the bar beyond human capacity - God is our guide in our sanctification, not you! It looks like you are trying the same tactics the Pharisees were attempting to use, but instead of doing it with doctrine, you are using morality.

Aspen, you are still stuck in the "human capacity" level. We are NOT on that level any longer, we have Christ in us, we are living His life, we have a new nature - His nature - a DIVINE nature. Of course at the human capacity we could not overcome sin and reach to His full stature!

You don't know who you are in Christ.

 

[aspen]

Aspen, you are still stuck in the "human capacity" level. We are NOT on that level any longer, we have Christ in us, we are living His life, we have a new nature - His nature - a DIVINE nature. Of course at the human capacity we could not overcome sin and reach to His full stature!

You don't know who you are in Christ.

We are instruments that have gone out of tune. Christ is tuning us, but it is taking awhile to get us in playing condition again. Christ is patient with us - He takes as long as is necessary to bring us to a place where we sound as pristine as He made us to be. You are expecting us to be able to perform at concert level the second Christ starts working with us......it doesn't work that way.

You know how I know this? I've never met a Christian who is perfect. Never. And you guys can play all the semantics games you want to play - sinners are not serious / do not really know Christ / are immature / have fallen out of grace / etc - it is all false. You cannot rush the work of the Holy Spirit in our sanctification, no matter how much you want to be sin free, immediately.

 

[Hollyrock]

You are either a Christian or a sinner...you cannot be both. The Cross and the Blood makes the difference.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You are either a Christian or a sinner...you cannot be both. The Cross and the Blood makes the difference.

Define 'sinner'.

 

[Episkopos]

You're chasing ghosts! God gave us enough truth in the Bible and His church to nurture our sanctification - God the Father gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us along the way. What more do you want?? Believing that the Early Church was more pristine and Holier than it is today is a fundamentalist's pipe dream. Stop trying to raise the bar beyond human capacity - God is our guide in our sanctification, not you! It looks like you are trying the same tactics the Pharisees were attempting to use, but instead of doing it with doctrine, you are using morality.

Human capacity? Jesus died so we could do our best? The Pharisees operated in a human capacity. Men can only follow morality. You are barking up the wrong tree...the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

You are either a Christian or a sinner...you cannot be both. The Cross and the Blood makes the difference.

1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

If one sinner can spoil much good...what about a whole gaggle of sinners calling themselves righteous?

Ecc_9:18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

 

[lawrance]

A topic of Sin.
The Sin you know you have done and what about the Sin you did or don't know you have done.
I don't believe anyone could say they are not a sinner but one could be strengthened in Christ not to be a slave to Sin.

If we look into Sin we will find small Sin and larger Sin, like i forgot to be very considerate to one person to day = sin and like i just went out and killed someone just for the hell of it.

Some say Sin is Sin and that's that, like you had a dream about a woman that was not above board and if you did it in reality that it makes no difference at all they say. that's a load of bull i say, as it show restraint as you are not bound to Sin.
Sin can temp one even in a dream and that dream could be a Sin and in Christ one could have a Handel on things as such.

 

[elysian]

We never cease to sin. This doesn't mean we never cease to cheat, steal, kill etc. We may, and indeed do, avoid these things, but that doesn't make one sinless.

 

[aspen]

Human capacity?

Jesus died for us and therefore forgave our sins (justification) and freed us to choose the greater good - so now, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we are capable of choosing the selfless over the selfish - unfortunately, we still live in a Fallen world and are still conditioned to sin. I am talking about human capacity in a Fallen world - we are in a saving relationship with Christ, but we are not perfect yet. The Pharisees were not justified. Once again, this is an impossible conversation to have with someone who refuses to recognize his own sin.

Paul would not been discussing sin with the churches he started if it was not an issue. I doubt that he was writing to people who only believed they were Christians.

Jesus died so we could do our best? The Pharisees operated in a human capacity. Men can only follow morality. You are barking up the wrong tree...the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Based on your posts, I believe you are more works oriented than I am.

1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

If one sinner can spoil much good...what about a whole gaggle of sinners calling themselves righteous?

Ecc_9:18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

Great verses! If we refuse Christ's forgiveness, we are still viewed as sinners to the Father. Only the Blood of Christ can cover our sins. All these verses are describing how futile it is for the soul who refuses the Blood of Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You are quoting out of context. Those who quote John to condone sin are falling into the trap he laid out...

John didn't lay out a trap. What nonsense are you talking about?

This is intriguing because while I agree with many things you say, I see some problems in your knowledge and what seem to be glaring contradictions in your arguments. It may be a case of us talking about the same things in different ways, but I'm wondering if something more insidious isn't at work.

You admit you've sinned and do sin; but you also seem to be in denial that you sin because sin dwells in you.

ALL have sinned in the past...

Good point. I am not always able to live ONLY by faith at all times...

Can men stop sinning? Of course not...we have Adam for a father...

The fleshly body is a tent we live in presently. It is weak to be sure...but sinful? Only the actions that are done are sinful.

Do you think the flesh is only substance? The flesh is a complex of mind and substance. I'm wondering if you deny that sin dwells in the natural mind, and if you don't have a natural mind?

Some will say that sin is ingrained in our mortal bodies. Yet no ultrasound or MRI will ever find this sin in our bodies.

It almost seems as if you think righteousness is what you do.

I am still in need of forgiveness at times, yes! I have not yet attained to that place where I can always remain in His presence.

And this very peculiar statement troubles me. Repentance is turning away from from sin to Christ. There is nothing bad in repentance. Yet you seem to think that acknowledgment of sin is sin. Extraordinary.

The alternative to that is to be constantly repenting every moment...not a good witness of victory...but rather an admission to a constant defeat.

Any clarifications will be appreciated