Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?

[Lively Stone]

Christians can be carnal and they may even sin, but because they are Born-Again, their spiritual status is still Christian...not sinner. Only an unbeliever has the status of a sinner.

This is exactly the truth. We are no longer considered sinners because God sees us filtered through the blood of Jesus. He sees us as already perfected---we are not sinners, but saints! Nowhere are believers called sinners in the Bible and we shouldn't do it either. We need to orient our mindset to God's.

 

[Episkopos]

This is exactly the truth. We are no longer considered sinners because God sees us filtered through the blood of Jesus. He sees us as already perfected---we are not sinners, but saints! Nowhere are believers called sinners in the Bible and we shouldn't do it either. We need to orient our mindset to God's.

This is not accurate. Have you ever read this....

2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

or....


Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

 

[jiggyfly]

This is exactly the truth. We are no longer considered sinners because God sees us filtered through the blood of Jesus. He sees us as already perfected---we are not sinners, but saints! Nowhere are believers called sinners in the Bible and we shouldn't do it either. We need to orient our mindset to God's.

This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1Tim 1:15

 

[Lively Stone]

This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1Tim 1:15

Paul was adept at using a literary device---a kind of contrast that enforces this righteous man's humility and the contrasting depth of depravity in which he once walked by using the PRESENT TENSE. Of course, Paul was a violent sinner at one time, but he was no longer since being changed by his encounter with Jesus Christ and the immense mercy of God.

To use this scripture for anything but to point out Paul's righteousness and ours in Christ is foul.

Paul wrote, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not.” (1 Corinthians 15:34), and again he asks the question, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?“ (Romans 6:1-2). Strange that Paul should exhort others to quit sinning and keep right on himself. Where would be the consistency?

He that would make out Paul as saying that he was at this time the chief of sinners, flies in the face of reason, of the Word of God, of Paul’s own testimony and experience. He would make him to be not only false and hypocritical, but a deceiver.

He is speaking of two things that came into his life—one was sin, and the other was salvation. He calls attention to the fact of his being the chief of sinners, and as the chief of sinners Christ saved him, thus giving hope for others. If Christ could save the chief of sinners, then might all have hope. The word chief is mentioned simply to show the power of Christ’s salvation. Notice the verse below: “For this cause I (the chief of sinners) obtained mercy.”

This power was brought to bear upon one who was the chief of sinners. But that power acted long years in the past at his conversion. Then the word “chief of sinners” must apply to the time when the power of salvation was exerted. Hence, we see that it was not at the time of that writing, but at the time of his conversion—not the chief sinner now, but the chief sinner saved then. It makes a great deal of difference when we wake up to the fact that he is writing of the chief sinner saved instead of the chief sinner still in his sins. It would be a poor salvation that left him still the chief of sinners. Adding a word or two to the text by way of explanation may throw light upon it: “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief’ (or, the chief one saved). Not now a chief sinner, but a chief saved one who was a sinner.

So that Paul, instead of lowering the standard, and confessing himself to be the chief of sinners, is doing the very opposite; confessing his great salvation, and showing that he is the chief saved one, by formerly being such a sinner, and now by having such a wonderful salvation.

One of the great delusions of the day is, that one may be a Christian, and at the same time be a sinner. Never did the devil hatch up a greater soul-deceiving lie. Even the expression, “I am a sinner, saved by grace,” is not only misleading, but unscriptural. As scene one has said, “They will emphasize the word sinner and whisper saved.” If one is a sinner, he is not saved. Of course, the majority may understand what one means by it, but the fact is, salvation and sin do not mix. To say, that I was a sinner, but am now saved by grace, would be the truth. If we stick to the Word of God there is no possible way to harmonize the two states—sin and salvation. There is as much propriety in saying, I am a liar, though truthful by grace; or, I am a corpse, alive by the power of God; or, I am a drunkard, made temperate by the gold cure; as to say, I am a sinner, saved by grace. The fact is, the expression a put in the present tense, when it should be in he past, showing when the work was done. If a man is a corpse, he is not alive; if one is a liar, he is not truthful; if he is a drunkard, he is not temperate.

The word of God does not mix things. It puts them where they belong. If one is a sinner, he is not saved; he is of the devil, out of Christ and not born again. All of this John makes plain.

Why people want to hide behind some wrested Scripture to their soul’s destruction, when there is so much light shed on the pathway, is a mystery indeed. May the Lord save the people from being sinners.

http://www.eternalsecurity.us/Paul%20Chief%20of%20Sinners.htm

 

[Episkopos]

Paul was adept at using a literary device---a kind of contrast that enforces this righteous man's humility and the contrasting depth of depravity in which he once walked by using the PRESENT TENSE. Of course, Paul was a violent sinner at one time, but he was no longer since being changed by his encounter with Jesus Christ and the immense mercy of God.

To use this scripture for anything but to point out Paul's righteousness and ours in Christ is foul.

Paul wrote, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not.” (1 Corinthians 15:34), and again he asks the question, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?“ (Romans 6:1-2). Strange that Paul should exhort others to quit sinning and keep right on himself. Where would be the consistency?

He that would make out Paul as saying that he was at this time the chief of sinners, flies in the face of reason, of the Word of God, of Paul’s own testimony and experience. He would make him to be not only false and hypocritical, but a deceiver.

He is speaking of two things that came into his life—one was sin, and the other was salvation. He calls attention to the fact of his being the chief of sinners, and as the chief of sinners Christ saved him, thus giving hope for others. If Christ could save the chief of sinners, then might all have hope. The word chief is mentioned simply to show the power of Christ’s salvation. Notice the verse below: “For this cause I (the chief of sinners) obtained mercy.”

This power was brought to bear upon one who was the chief of sinners. But that power acted long years in the past at his conversion. Then the word “chief of sinners” must apply to the time when the power of salvation was exerted. Hence, we see that it was not at the time of that writing, but at the time of his conversion—not the chief sinner now, but the chief sinner saved then. It makes a great deal of difference when we wake up to the fact that he is writing of the chief sinner saved instead of the chief sinner still in his sins. It would be a poor salvation that left him still the chief of sinners. Adding a word or two to the text by way of explanation may throw light upon it: “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief’ (or, the chief one saved). Not now a chief sinner, but a chief saved one who was a sinner.

So that Paul, instead of lowering the standard, and confessing himself to be the chief of sinners, is doing the very opposite; confessing his great salvation, and showing that he is the chief saved one, by formerly being such a sinner, and now by having such a wonderful salvation.

One of the great delusions of the day is, that one may be a Christian, and at the same time be a sinner. Never did the devil hatch up a greater soul-deceiving lie. Even the expression, “I am a sinner, saved by grace,” is not only misleading, but unscriptural. As scene one has said, “They will emphasize the word sinner and whisper saved.” If one is a sinner, he is not saved. Of course, the majority may understand what one means by it, but the fact is, salvation and sin do not mix. To say, that I was a sinner, but am now saved by grace, would be the truth. If we stick to the Word of God there is no possible way to harmonize the two states—sin and salvation. There is as much propriety in saying, I am a liar, though truthful by grace; or, I am a corpse, alive by the power of God; or, I am a drunkard, made temperate by the gold cure; as to say, I am a sinner, saved by grace. The fact is, the expression a put in the present tense, when it should be in he past, showing when the work was done. If a man is a corpse, he is not alive; if one is a liar, he is not truthful; if he is a drunkard, he is not temperate.

The word of God does not mix things. It puts them where they belong. If one is a sinner, he is not saved; he is of the devil, out of Christ and not born again. All of this John makes plain.

Why people want to hide behind some wrested Scripture to their soul’s destruction, when there is so much light shed on the pathway, is a mystery indeed. May the Lord save the people from being sinners.

http://www.eternalse...f%20Sinners.htm

This post is the truth and wonderfully refreshing!

 

[jiggyfly]

Paul was adept at using a literary device---a kind of contrast that enforces this righteous man's humility and the contrasting depth of depravity in which he once walked by using the PRESENT TENSE. Of course, Paul was a violent sinner at one time, but he was no longer since being changed by his encounter with Jesus Christ and the immense mercy of God.

To use this scripture for anything but to point out Paul's righteousness and ours in Christ is foul.

Paul wrote, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not.” (1 Corinthians 15:34), and again he asks the question, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?“ (Romans 6:1-2). Strange that Paul should exhort others to quit sinning and keep right on himself. Where would be the consistency?

He that would make out Paul as saying that he was at this time the chief of sinners, flies in the face of reason, of the Word of God, of Paul’s own testimony and experience. He would make him to be not only false and hypocritical, but a deceiver.

He is speaking of two things that came into his life—one was sin, and the other was salvation. He calls attention to the fact of his being the chief of sinners, and as the chief of sinners Christ saved him, thus giving hope for others. If Christ could save the chief of sinners, then might all have hope. The word chief is mentioned simply to show the power of Christ’s salvation. Notice the verse below: “For this cause I (the chief of sinners) obtained mercy.”

This power was brought to bear upon one who was the chief of sinners. But that power acted long years in the past at his conversion. Then the word “chief of sinners” must apply to the time when the power of salvation was exerted. Hence, we see that it was not at the time of that writing, but at the time of his conversion—not the chief sinner now, but the chief sinner saved then. It makes a great deal of difference when we wake up to the fact that he is writing of the chief sinner saved instead of the chief sinner still in his sins. It would be a poor salvation that left him still the chief of sinners. Adding a word or two to the text by way of explanation may throw light upon it: “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief’ (or, the chief one saved). Not now a chief sinner, but a chief saved one who was a sinner.

So that Paul, instead of lowering the standard, and confessing himself to be the chief of sinners, is doing the very opposite; confessing his great salvation, and showing that he is the chief saved one, by formerly being such a sinner, and now by having such a wonderful salvation.

One of the great delusions of the day is, that one may be a Christian, and at the same time be a sinner. Never did the devil hatch up a greater soul-deceiving lie. Even the expression, “I am a sinner, saved by grace,” is not only misleading, but unscriptural. As scene one has said, “They will emphasize the word sinner and whisper saved.” If one is a sinner, he is not saved. Of course, the majority may understand what one means by it, but the fact is, salvation and sin do not mix. To say, that I was a sinner, but am now saved by grace, would be the truth. If we stick to the Word of God there is no possible way to harmonize the two states—sin and salvation. There is as much propriety in saying, I am a liar, though truthful by grace; or, I am a corpse, alive by the power of God; or, I am a drunkard, made temperate by the gold cure; as to say, I am a sinner, saved by grace. The fact is, the expression a put in the present tense, when it should be in he past, showing when the work was done. If a man is a corpse, he is not alive; if one is a liar, he is not truthful; if he is a drunkard, he is not temperate.

The word of God does not mix things. It puts them where they belong. If one is a sinner, he is not saved; he is of the devil, out of Christ and not born again. All of this John makes plain.

Why people want to hide behind some wrested Scripture to their soul’s destruction, when there is so much light shed on the pathway, is a mystery indeed. May the Lord save the people from being sinners.

http://www.eternalse...f%20Sinners.htm

If what you say is true why didn't Paul say it using past tense? Ever consider that maybe your misreading or misunderstanding John?
It is easy to misunderstand the scriptures when we have erected a religious paradigm, everything we read must fit our paradigm, which is usually religious ideas and doctrines we were taught by someone else and in some cases early in life. Tis why John the baptist and Jesus preached "repent".

As for the question in the OP, I posted earlier that in the scriptures Christian or Christ-follower only appears twice in the scriptures and fellow believer/brother many times. Many seem to confuse the two and use them interchangeably, but I think to do so is a mistake.

I wonder what Paul said in Gal. 6:1 means to you?
Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer* is overcome by some sin, you who are godly* should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.

 

[Lively Stone]

Paul was merely emphasizing with the present tense the contrast between how he was before Christ and after. He was a righteous man, and no sinner! The false religious notion that comes out of that passage is that we are still sinners, where nowhere in scripture are we referred to as sinners, but saints. We need to know who we are in Christ---righteous saints in the eyes of God and in reality because of the powerful blood of Jesus that saves TOTALLY.

As redeemed and righteous people of God, we need to know who we are in Christ and begin to walk in it, ditch that sinner mindset and rise above the tendency to fall into that false huimility.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He that would make out Paul as saying that he was at this time the chief of sinners, flies in the face of reason, of the Word of God, of Paul’s own testimony and experience. He would make him to be not only false and hypocritical, but a deceiver.

Without reading into the text, Paul said "I am foremost" of sinners, not "I was foremost".

One of the great delusions of the day is, that one may be a Christian, and at the same time be a sinner.

It seems to me that some are stumbling over semantics when using the word sinner. The word can mean: (1) one who practises sin, and (2) one who has a sin nature. Obviously, the first is not saved. Any man who can fog a mirror and thinks he has no sin nature is delusional.

 

[Angelina]

As long as we live in the body of this flesh, we are capable of sin. Even Paul says that he has not yet attained perfection but he presses on forgetting those things that are behind him and reaching forward to the things that are ahead. Philippians 3:12 -13.

Are born-again believers capable of sin? of course they are...All unrighteousness is sin... but we have an advocate with the Father our Lord Jesus Christ when we come before him in true repentance and ask for forgiveness.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [sup]10 [/sup]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

From HollyRock

Christians can be carnal and they may even sin, but because they are Born-Again, their spiritual status is still Christian...not sinner. Only an unbeliever has the status of a sinner.

If you sin as a "Born-Again believer" and you die in that state...you will be judged accordingly. However, there is sin that does not lead to death...1 John 5:16, 17. This sin is repentable. "Sin separates you from God" and when you repent...Jesus Advocates on your behalf so that you can be restored.

Shalom!!!

 

[Lively Stone]

Without reading into the text, Paul said "I am foremost" of sinners, not "I was foremost".



It seems to me that some are stumbling over semantics when using the word sinner. The word can mean: (1) one who practises sin, and (2) one who has a sin nature. Obviously, the first is not saved. Any man who can fog a mirror and thinks he has no sin nature is delusional.

It is a form of speech to speak in the present to emhasize what has happend in the past. anyone who knows the word knows that no one is presently a horrible sinner once he has come to righteous standing in Christ. THAT is the truth. If one wants to use this single verse as an excuse to remain a sinner, then one is ignoring the truth of the word for their own failure to grasp the truth about salvation, God's grace, and the fact that we have a new nature in Christ.

Ephesians 4:24
Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.

Colossians 3:10
Put on your new nature, and be renewed as you learn to know your Creator and become like him.

 

[aspen]

This idea that we are instantly transformed into a perfect being is so obviously wrong. There are some warped ideas that are spread around Christian circles that are hard to disprove - this is not one of them. All you have to do is open your eyes and look around at the impact of your selfishness on the world and you will see that you have a long way to go before perfection. I came down stairs this morning after morning prayers, to prepare for Mass and I realized that I had already committed a sin - in the midst of spending time with God, I had inadvertently, yet selfishly, failed to let our dogs out earlier and my wife was left to clean up the mess. It may not seem like much, but all selfishness is sin - does this mean that I am not really a Christian?

 

[Lively Stone]

No one is perfect! But God says we are positionally righteous in Christ. Hidden with Christ in God. No sinner can be found there.

When we sin we do not negate our salvation or God's rich grace.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Ephesians 4:24
Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.

Colossians 3:10
Put on your new nature, and be renewed as you learn to know your Creator and become like him.

Your new nature is in heaven seated with Christ. Yet I believe you sent that last post from earth. That means you are still in your corrupted flesh, the works of which you put to death through faith so that you may one day attain to that incorruptible body in heaven. All flesh is wicked, sinful, utterly corrupt, whether sanctified or not.

 

[Lively Stone]

Your new nature is in heaven seated with Christ. Yet I believe you sent that last post from earth. That means you are still in your corrupted flesh, the works of which you put to death through faith so that you may one day attain to that incorruptible body in heaven. All flesh is wicked, sinful, utterly corrupt, whether sanctified or not.

I have my new natiure now and I am encouraged to act in it according to scripture. See the command, "Put on your new nature.."???


2 Corinthians 5:17 (NLT)

[sup]17[/sup] This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No one is perfect! But God says we are positionally righteous in Christ. Hidden with Christ in God. No sinner can be found there.
When we sin we do not negate our salvation or God's rich grace.

If the old is gone, how does the new sin?

 

[Justinian 1]

If the old is gone, how does the new sin?

What is the old and the new?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What is the old and the new?

I'm not sure what Lively Stone is talking about, but the apostle Paul referred to the flesh as the old man and a believer's life in Christ as the new life, or new creation.

 

[aspen]

Your new nature is in heaven seated with Christ. Yet I believe you sent that last post from earth. That means you are still in your corrupted flesh, the works of which you put to death through faith so that you may one day attain to that incorruptible body in heaven. All flesh is wicked, sinful, utterly corrupt, whether sanctified or not.

This idea is true. We are not creatures of time, but we are living in time/space. In reality, we are being born, dying and kneeling before Christ all at once.

 

[jiggyfly]

Paul was merely emphasizing with the present tense the contrast between how he was before Christ and after. He was a righteous man, and no sinner! The false religious notion that comes out of that passage is that we are still sinners, where nowhere in scripture are we referred to as sinners, but saints. We need to know who we are in Christ---righteous saints in the eyes of God and in reality because of the powerful blood of Jesus that saves TOTALLY.

As redeemed and righteous people of God, we need to know who we are in Christ and begin to walk in it, ditch that sinner mindset and rise above the tendency to fall into that false huimility.

I didn't see your response in regards to Gal. 6:1 do you have an opinion on what it means?

 

[Lively Stone]

I didn't see your response in regards to Gal. 6:1 do you have an opinion on what it means?

Galatians 6:1
Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.

What ar you looking for? It is self-explanatory. We are to correct and lead our sisters and brothers in the faith, all the while taking care that we walk circumspectly.

I'm not sure what Lively Stone is talking about, but the apostle Paul referred to the flesh as the old man and a believer's life in Christ as the new life, or new creation.

Why don't you understand what I am talking about? You have explained it.