Brother Mike,I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one ;) since this issue is rooted heavily in my Churches doctrine.
Can God sin?
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Deathwheat:
Praise God Brother, thats a very honest and respectful way to put it. I belonged to a Church that had a suffering Doctrine. (Called Refining fire)My Church believed that some sickness and unfortunate events were caused by God, to bring us closer to God. There are different versions of this Doctrine. Most do not read Rom 5:2 when teaching this though. To get though any trial of sickness, or disaster. It will take FAITH in the Word of God, and a willingness to STAND on that Word not moving. Things will come, that will test our faith, building experience, and working out patience. (Trials never produce faith in God. Faith must be there by the Word, to survive the trial.)Trials are never produced by God, We have a fallen world and a devil to help with that.Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: We are told where the source of these come from.Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. Here are three witness in scripture, that tell us.1) devil is at fault, not God2) It will take faith in what God said to make it. If God said "By his stripes ye are healed" then believe that, and don't side with the sickness.3) We are told to stand, and not be moved.4) God's Grace (Help, when we don't really deserve it) is there.Here is a good article on the suffering Doctrine. http://www.tgm.org/SufferingPt1.htmlBe blessed Deathwheat1124!!! Thank you for your kind response. Jesus Is Lord.
In case this was not clear...I do not believe that God causes suffering... rather he allows it.Not saying you were accusing me of such an accusation 
, but it's always good to reiterate such a statement!Praised be God for good and respectful discussion.
, but it's always good to reiterate such a statement!Praised be God for good and respectful discussion.God seems to have a specific purpose in allowing us to go through suffering:2Co 1:4-7 ESV who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. (5) For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. (6) If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. (7) Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort."If God allowed the perfect Son to suffer, yet still loved Him throughout all His trials and temptations, you can be sure that we, His followers, will likewise experience similar trials...1Peter 4:12-14 ESV Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. (13) But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. (14) If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you."God is in control... this is my Father's world... absolutely nothing happens or can happen except that God either directly causes it, or that God allows it, to deny this is to deny God's absolute sovereignty and is to say that there are individuals or circumstances that can overrule and overpower the Sovereign Lord of the universe... but this is impossible... but in any case, the believer can rejoice that if trials come (and they will) that God has not abandoned them, there is not some secret sin in their lives, its not necessarily their fault because they just "didn't have enough faith" so they are being punished... God still loves them and has a purpose for all that He allows to happen in any person's life... Jesus promised us that in this life we will have trials, but that we are to take courage, for He has overcome the world...John 16:33 ESV I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."blessings,ken
epistemaniac
Well, I would have to stand up and raise my hand. I guess by definition I have to deny this. God is sovereign because everything He said in His Word is true, and will come to pass. What people want to believe will not help them, if not in line with God's word.Now if something bad is coming our way, saying God would allow it, is like saying I would watch a baby fall in a pool, and not doing anything, I just watch the baby drown and die. Not my fault, right? Amazing to me, that someone drops their cheeseburger on the floor board of a car that they are driving, then while look down, trying to get their cheeseburger back, runs into a tree and ends up in the hospital. They then latter claim that GOD!! used that to bring them closer to him. All the glory goes to the cheeseburger and no mention of them just being dumb. Even When I was released on Parole, and trying to get my Marriage back. I had an argument with my wife, then Work was really rough that day. I had to live at the Salvation Army (Homeless shelter) and walk to work everyday. Feeling down, and walking back to the shelter from Work, I found a bar that was serving drinks outside. I figured, that a beer or two would not hurt, and God would understand. I went to grab a beer, and the Lord spoke very loud and clear. He said "NO, Keep walking."I was very angry, but I knew better to listen. So, I just kept walking. When I got back to the shelter, they were doing breath analyzers on all the men coming in the door. Had I just drank a beer, I would have been thrown out, and violated parole. (Back to prison)What you call "God Allowing" I call people that don't know how to Hear the Spirit of the Lord, or ignore HIM.Jesus Is Lord.
Most of these Threads are based on the Character and Nature of God. God does, Or God does not. God picks, or man chooses, with a varying degree of Extremes on both sides.While everyone believes they are right, I don't see anyone learning much. Everyone looks at God in different light, yet all are Christians. (If you don't take Savedbygrace57's view) I think we all agreed that God does not commit sin. So, we can put a fork in this thread.Jesus Is Lord
Absolutely not, God is Holy! Completely without sin and unable to sin. He hates sin (although He loves the sinner)naomi;72544 said:
Woot!!! took three pages, but we have come to the same conclusion.Brother gervais had the final vote........... (Drum Roll) GOD DOES NOT SIN!!!!! Final verdict!!!! Woot!!! Woot!!!!We all agreed~!!!!!!~!!!!Now that has to be written in a record somewhere.Love ya all!!!!Jesus Is Lord!!
[quote name='Deadwheat1224;72589]If God doesn't make good come from evil' date=' then why does he allow sin to occur? Free-will? I can agree with that. But wouldn't an almighty, all-loving God bring life from even death? This can, in my opinion, be seen in natural disasters. From floods, Tsunami's, hurricanes, and earthquakes, we see the compassion of human nature. It is unfortunate, but primarily through the struggling of mankind we see the unity and loves that bind us. Yes, sin is evil, but God [I']because in some sense he controls evil[/I], can make Good come from it, even though he is not the cause. Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Why cannot this not include suffering? Suffering brings us closer to God, and yet it is caused by the evil of another, or sometimes even ourselves. Thus, though it is ideal to never sin, God makes good come from it.... Did not the sin of Judas (though not a good act in any way) bring about the salvation of mankind? I repeat, the sin itself was horrible, but God brought good from the evil.[/QUOTE] I cannot in all honesty agree with your following statement Deadwheat , even though it may ,( in ways I do not understand be true) Why cannot this not include suffering? Suffering brings us closer to God, and yet it is caused by the evil of another, or sometimes even ourselves. Thus, though it is ideal to never sin, God makes good come from it.... Did not the sin of Judas (though not a good act in any way) bring about the salvation of mankind? I repeat, the sin itself was horrible, but God brought good from the evil. I agree that God does not cause suffering but for reasons we don't understand allows it, that is apparent, all we have to do is look around us but in my own case I fail to see hows my wifes suffering for over seven years and counting is building her character for the better or bringing her closer to God, I know that standing by and watching it dosn't bring me closer. We know that God is ALL powerful, therefore should He choose to do so could stop the present ruler of this world (Satan) to continue to Kill and Destroy untll such time as He decides He has had enough and destroys this whole mess with fire, But how does this in anyway equate with a Loving God? If you were in a position to heal every young dying child at St. Judes Hospital forinstance would you just stand buy and say "Well child I love you to death,(I proved that at the cross) , but unfortunately Satan chooses to make you suffer a while and then kill you, but don't worry sometime in the future I plan to stop him" I don't think you would allow it if you (like God) had the power to keep it from happening. He kept Satan from killing Job, so He proved His authority there, but what of Jobs kids he didn't get them back. I realize that with my puny finite mind I can in no way figure out the way God chooses to think and act. but at the same time why did He choose to create me with a free will and 5 senses if he dosn't want me to use them? God Bless...Ray
I'm very sorry to hear about your wife. I have not really had to endure any major suffering, so of course I can never truly know what suffering does to someone's spirit.I do know however that I have suffered at some level. And I know that those times in which I am suffering, I run to Jesus even more. Also, I believe that Compassion leads to love, so those who suffer as Christ suffered identify with him more and come to love him more. Again, just my opinion. For some reason God allows suffering... and that reason must be for some greater purpose. Like Job, we all ask why, and God gives us the same answer: It is for my plan, you will know one day when you join my side.Also, I believe that suffering brings us closer to God by purifying us of the consequences of our actual sin. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms...
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