Can one be "born again" and have no hunger for God's word?

[Xian Pugilist]

XP wrote

You said it - they were not yet in Him and therefore saved from sin. Thats why they needed a mediator but John did not because he was in Christ.

Wow, I don't think anyone has ever admitted that publicly to me before. I get your not inclusive after sitting on it for two days.....

It is only when we sin that we need Him to mediate. So maybe we can agree that John was at the saved from sin stage and the others were not.

I have a problem with the saved from sin stage.... do you mean he was no longer sinning? If so I'm still with you there.... OR do you mean something that is semantically tweaked from that?

So what they had at their coming to Christ for forgiveness and recognising themselves as sinners, was not saved in the sense that John was saved. I was so used with using the term saved for those who had entered into stage one, that it took some relearning for a while and I sometimes still slip up.

Ok we are still together. I'm getting scared.... I don't use the word saved in a conversation anymore. On the forums I use "saved" because that's all most people have ever heard. And I've gotten to the point I just don't find much hope of getting past the saved part of the chat with most folks.... so I've gotten lazy. Or summ'n.

Anyway, the terms we use are not the important thing - understanding the spiritual truth however is. So I will describe the process as best I can in my own words.

Stage one - an encounter with the living God, finding out one is a sinner and that Christ died personally for us. There follows a struggle with the flesh, unless one settles down and fails to allow the work of the Holy Spirit.

BOOM AMEN!!!!!

Stage two - a crisis where one has come to the end of oneself trying to be obedient and failing. One feels that one cannot go on with the heavy burden of guilt and failure. One is in the dust. The Light shines (illumination as in the Via Triplex) and one rises from the prison and is set free from the guilt and power of sin, knowing this, that the old man was crucified with Him and what we do of ourselves is unacceptable because it comes from the flesh.. This is where a lot of the ones spoken to in the letters are coming from. They still need to be taught as they have not reached maturity. They can choose to not sin but they are in danger of taking their sanctification for granted and suffering from spiritual pride. Their old man is under their control but is not destroyed. They generally think that they have reached the zenith and will even persecute those who preach sinless perfection.

Ok, that's a bit melo dramatic for me, but the concept is still the same.... well not the same but close enough it's just ticky tack stuff....

Stage three - not many enter into this stage. It is the stage of union where one is led by the Spirit in everything. At the crisis they at last see themselves as Christ sees them and they know that there is nothing good in them. The old man is destroyed so that they walk without sin. However they can only remain in this state if they trust Christ to keep them from sin and if they doubt they will fall into the previous state and require deliverance. It is not easy however. The apostles were there though Peter fell for a time. George Fox was here too. It is love perfected. We cannot sin if we love Christ with the whole heart and there is no idol before Him.

I think what you call the third stage, is matt 5:43-48, they have learned to love like God does. NOT because of their learning ability but because of the trials and tribulations God has put them through while HE changed them. Your view has too much on the man's back for my understanding. It says HE will change us, but many people look only at what they need to do to change themselves. ONE is weak in the Spirit and learns to depend on God, the other view is strong in the spirit, like the rich young ruler who could take care of himself. He was strong and it was hard for him to let loose and become dependent. HOWEVER if he had, Christ said he would have been perfect/which means mature. The finished step of the believer is to not be strong, but dependent on HIM. And that is where our strength comes from.

So, that's where I"m different. Where does that leave us?

This is who the letters to timothy are addressed to. Where do you get a bishop at? On the other hand i hope I am a true son in the faith and a beloved Son.

1 Tim 1
"Timothy, a true son in the faith:

2 Tim 1
To Timothy, a beloved son:

We know it from culture and History. Not to mention church tradition. But historically you had a person who was the head of the Church in an area. The area would have more than one church, you'd have 20 or 30 maybe in a big city, but one bishop over them to make sure they knew what to teach, and someone to mediate over disputes and such. James was the bishop of Jerusalem for the council that met there to decide how to treat with the Gentiles in the church.

That's why he was responsible for the elders in the area.

OK willfollow with some verses that say salvation is the end of the journey not the begining. If we hold on to the end we will be saved.

I ask you to look at the Psalms of David. He worshipped God but in many places Ps 31:16 for eg he asks his Lord to deliver/save him.

Ok, that doesn't mean it wasn't the first step of a process, also it doesn't mean he wasn't already saved and just whining because he knew he did something wrong. I mean this is DAVID, it's not exactly like he wasn't getting into trouble, ya know?

OK here is something else to consider from the OT again (I will get into the NT later) Read Isaiah 35, a prophesy of the state of entire sanctification - holiness. The way of holiness as it says in verse 8. Verse 4 says it will occur when He comes to save us. It is not separating them like you. Others put it at the start but we know they are wrong. Holiness cannot be in name only - it must be a reality - to walk as He walked. And this happens later somewhere along the way if we do not turn from the Light.

Sorry to take up so much space but this is the easier way for me and I'm lazy?

Zion's Happy Future​

1 The wilderness and the desert will be glad,]And the [fn1] Arabah will rejoice and blossom; Like the crocus !important]2[/color] It will blossom profusely And rejoice with rejoicing and shout of joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it,The majesty of Carmel and Sharon. They will see the glory of the LORD,This predicts the coming of the Messiah Say to those with anxious heart,Behold, your God will come with vengeance;Again Messianic prophecy, not person's spiritual growth. I.O.W. applies to the people of Israel, not my personal life.... although there are shadows leaning both ways. And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.Then the lame will leap like a deer,And the tongue of the mute will shout for joy.​

]And streams in the [fn4] Arabah.​

This is the time of the messiah, delivering the people, the blind the deaf the lame, then tongues as the church is built, then Church as it breaks out in the areas, remember those that had the Spirit before they heard of God or had the baptism???? ​

7[/color] The [fn5] scorched land will become a pool​

And it will be called the Highway of Holiness.Rom 13:11​

This isn't personal salvation, it's resurrection of the dead for all people....
vs 14 seems to state that if this person is saved here... they still have things to do. He's talking about the return of Christ but these people that were saved still had things to do, like putting on Christ.... see 1 john 3:6....


1Cor 1:6 all this says is that He was confirmed in them?????


2Cor 6:1-2 sure sounds like they have received Grace but are still growing in maturity...


1Thes 5:8 he's still hoping for salvation here, not sure how that has to do with it's a final stage product????


Titus 2:13 - the blessed hope - salvation when He purifies us. IT's talking about the end times of our lives, the PEOPLE as a whole not my individual maturity. I dont' follow how these are relevant...


Heb 2:3 - the subject of Hebrews - entering His rest - the end of striving in the flesh>> talking about the coming of the MESSIAH, not our personal growth. The MESSIAH is the last stage of that plan.....


Heb 9:28 - when He appears the second time without sin unto salvation. again this is a Nations scale not personal?


YOU>>>If you start looking for this meaning you will find many many more. Of course most men will find this too frightening and close their ears but you are a truth seeker.<<<<


Sure I'm a truth seeker. I dig. But I think you took a wrong turn still.

these verses speak not of personal growth, but salvation of the TIMES of mankind. Those are different topics... help me see what you are seeing.[/color]

Something got screwy and a lot of html code dropped out of cyber heaven and infiltrated the post. I think I have it cleaned up, 40 minutes later but if it's messy lemme know.

 

[Hepzibah]

XP wrote:

I have a problem with the saved from sin stage.... do you mean he was no longer sinning? If so I'm still with you there.... OR do you mean something that is semantically tweaked from that?

ME

Correct ; I mean he was no longer sinning.

XP wrote:

Ok we are still together. I'm getting scared.... I don't use the word saved in a conversation anymore. On the forums I use "saved" because that's all most people have ever heard. And I've gotten to the point I just don't find much hope of getting past the saved part of the chat with most folks.... so I've gotten lazy. Or summ'n.

ME

Yes I know the problem with others but I think that we can come to agreement over it. I don`t want to labour the point as there are other things I would like to discuss with you like the Second Coming so maybe we can move on after this one, but I do know your position as I held it for a long time.

XP wrote :

scorched land will become a pool And it will be called the Highway of HolinessThis isn't personal salvation, it's resurrection of the dead for all people....
vs 14 seems to state that if this person is saved here... they still have things to do. He's talking about the return of Christ but these people that were saved still had things to do, like putting on Christ.... see 1 john 3:6....

ME

I don`t think the scriptures says much about the END which we dont need to know much about if we trust our Maker but it says a lot about the Second Coming which to me only makes sense if it is about the stage of the return of the Lord for those who have lost their fellowship like the disciples when He comes to baptise with the Spirit at our own Pentecost and the emphasis by the now Apostles, was on this, was not that they thought that the gospel had been spread throughout the world, and that the END was near. That does not make sense, that they thought that the END would occur in their lifetime but they knew about the Second Coming of Christ alright as it made them perfect and fulfilled the scriptures on the most important event in creation – the new heart which would be given which would be paradise regained for man after Adams fall. THIS is glorification. Man then shares the glory of God and sees clearly through the mirror, sees Christ in all of His glory as in Revelation and sees himself as God sees him which means that he has entered reality or God`s truth. He is prefect. This is the salvation the OT predicts. Saved from the whole problem of man – saved from the power and presence of sin. This is the focus of the whole of the scriptures. This one event.


Man cannot imagine what it is like to be in this state of glorification, it is beyond their wildest dreams. Sharing in the nature of Christ and being as close to the Father as He is beyond words. Being without sin is only the start of it. It is having the Almighty God of all creation, open up His heart and deepest thoughts to a mere man, desiring intimacy with a mere mortal. There are no words. Ah, if only men knew they would welcome the pain and heartache of the process to get them there, to get the world out of us and to empty man of himself so that the Holy Spirit can fill the vessel. The peace is profound of finding what one has always desired but sought in the wrong places and the feeling of purity in having the stain of sin removed is beyond comprehension. What men think is for the next life, is for us now, ready available for all who seek. The earlier stages are a taste of it but only a taste. Having the full meal, shared with the Divine is something else.

1 Peter 1:1-12 speaks of this salvation which is the receiving the end of our faith, the salvation of our souls which is the dividing asunder of the spirit and soul of man which occurs when the Holy Spirit takes up His abode.

Therefore, gird up your minds, says Peter, and hope to the endfor this grace to be brought unto you at the revelation (second coming) ofJesus Christ.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

XP wrote:

I have a problem with the saved from sin stage.... do you mean he was no longer sinning? If so I'm still with you there.... OR do you mean something that is semantically tweaked from that?

ME

Correct ; I mean he was no longer sinning.

XP wrote:

Ok we are still together. I'm getting scared.... I don't use the word saved in a conversation anymore. On the forums I use "saved" because that's all most people have ever heard. And I've gotten to the point I just don't find much hope of getting past the saved part of the chat with most folks.... so I've gotten lazy. Or summ'n.

ME

Yes I know the problem with others but I think that we can come to agreement over it. I don`t want to labour the point as there are other things I would like to discuss with you like the Second Coming so maybe we can move on after this one, but I do know your position as I held it for a long time.

XP wrote :

scorched land will become a pool And it will be called the Highway of HolinessThis isn't personal salvation, it's resurrection of the dead for all people....
vs 14 seems to state that if this person is saved here... they still have things to do. He's talking about the return of Christ but these people that were saved still had things to do, like putting on Christ.... see 1 john 3:6....

ME

I don`t think the scriptures says much about the END which we dont need to know much about if we trust our Maker but it says a lot about the Second Coming which to me only makes sense if it is about the stage of the return of the Lord for those who have lost their fellowship like the disciples when He comes to baptise with the Spirit at our own Pentecost and the emphasis by the now Apostles, was on this, was not that they thought that the gospel had been spread throughout the world, and that the END was near. That does not make sense, that they thought that the END would occur in their lifetime but they knew about the Second Coming of Christ alright as it made them perfect and fulfilled the scriptures on the most important event in creation – the new heart which would be given which would be paradise regained for man after Adams fall. THIS is glorification. Man then shares the glory of God and sees clearly through the mirror, sees Christ in all of His glory as in Revelation and sees himself as God sees him which means that he has entered reality or God`s truth. He is prefect. This is the salvation the OT predicts. Saved from the whole problem of man – saved from the power and presence of sin. This is the focus of the whole of the scriptures. This one event.


Man cannot imagine what it is like to be in this state of glorification, it is beyond their wildest dreams. Sharing in the nature of Christ and being as close to the Father as He is beyond words. Being without sin is only the start of it. It is having the Almighty God of all creation, open up His heart and deepest thoughts to a mere man, desiring intimacy with a mere mortal. There are no words. Ah, if only men knew they would welcome the pain and heartache of the process to get them there, to get the world out of us and to empty man of himself so that the Holy Spirit can fill the vessel. The peace is profound of finding what one has always desired but sought in the wrong places and the feeling of purity in having the stain of sin removed is beyond comprehension. What men think is for the next life, is for us now, ready available for all who seek. The earlier stages are a taste of it but only a taste. Having the full meal, shared with the Divine is something else.

1 Peter 1:1-12 speaks of this salvation which is the receiving the end of our faith, the salvation of our souls which is the dividing asunder of the spirit and soul of man which occurs when the Holy Spirit takes up His abode.

Therefore, gird up your minds, says Peter, and hope to the endfor this grace to be brought unto you at the revelation (second coming) ofJesus Christ.

Ok, I went 13 years thinking I was the only person that had these thoughts. It's always refreshing to find someone else. Not that I'd care if I never found one, I'm comfortable where I'm at until shown I'm wrong.

Second coming..... I don't do eschatology. I'll talk what I can with you if you wish, but I've not hit the books enough to have an educated opinion on anything. Just being honest. I don't mind commenting or arguing if I have educated/substantiated reasons, but just arguing to have my hunch accepted is not something I'd do or want done.