Can You Disprove This?

[watsoncarl53]

My name was predestined to be in The Book of Life.

I had nothing to do with it.

It was written in The Book of Life, before I was born.

God determined who hears his word.

God determined who believed his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would hear his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would believe his word.

He already had predetermined that I would believe his word because He

had predetermined I would hear his word and believe his word.

To which came to pass,

because God wrote my name in The Book of Life

before the world was created

and I was born.

Can you disprove this?

 

[Lively Stone]

Predetermined? No. God foreknew who would come to Him and receive salvation, but He didn't predetermine it. what is predetermined is our works done for Him based on His foreknowledge of our choosing salvation.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

 

[gregg]

take your parents for a exsample-they planned you and your future before you were.also had a plan for your future.even pointed you in the right direction.but there came a time you had to decide/choose sounds like GODS plan also

 

[watsoncarl53]

take your parents for a exsample-they planned you and your future before you were.also had a plan for your future.even pointed you in the right direction.but there came a time you had to decide/choose sounds like GODS plan also

God predestined you to decide and choose. He also predestined your decisions and choices.

That was a good try. Think about it and then try again.

 

[Foreigner]

Watsoncarl53, usually if you want to ask "Can you disprove this?" you are going to be met with "Don't have to. You haven't proven it."
Care to prove what you say?

Your post is like someone asking, "Can God make a rock so big that He Himself can't lift it?"

 

[watsoncarl53]

Watsoncarl53, usually if you want to ask "Can you disprove this?" you are going to be met with "Don't have to. You haven't proven it."
Care to prove what you say?

Your post is like someone asking, "Can God make a rock so big that He Himself can't lift it?"

To which I can answer correctly and prove to be correct.

I just want to see if any of you can find a flaw in what I believe.

If you can then I know.

I need to be corrected.

Correction leads to perfection.

I am not like the norm in any way.

Anything other than excellence is not acceptable to me.

I am like my Father.

The Lord God.

 

[Lively Stone]

I am like my Father.

The Lord God.

Yeah, CarlaTelia, we've heard ad infinitum.

 

[Groundzero]

My name was predestined to be in The Book of Life.

I had nothing to do with it.

It was written in The Book of Life, before I was born.

God determined who hears his word.

God determined who believed his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would hear his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would believe his word.

He already had predetermined that I would believe his word because He

had predetermined I would hear his word and believe his word.

To which came to pass,

because God wrote my name in The Book of Life

before the world was created

and I was born.

Can you disprove this?

I can't, but the Scripture can.

Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Seems to be that salvation is available to everyone and anyone.

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Seems to be that if you don't repent, you will perish. If you are predestined from birth, then what the hell are you doing repenting?!

You have not posted one Scripture. Obviously you think that you can live a Christian life without the Bible.No probs. I hope you don't have to much trouble selecting which version of Creation you want to believe, and which version of Jesus you want to believe, and which version of the end you want to believe! After all, you might end up coming back as a elephant or something! Show some back-up for your 'immunity'.

God predestined you to decide and choose. He also predestined your decisions and choices.

That was a good try. Think about it and then try again.

Really!!!!! What about you show me WHERE GOD SAID THAT!? Oh, I know! You had a 'REVELATION'! (which of course, I won't find anywhere in Scripture because it's 'new'!)

 

[watsoncarl53]

I can't, but the Scripture can.

Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Seems to be that salvation is available to everyone and anyone.

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Seems to be that if you don't repent, you will perish. If you are predestined from birth, then what the hell are you doing repenting?!

You have not posted one Scripture. Obviously you think that you can live a Christian life without the Bible.No probs. I hope you don't have to much trouble selecting which version of Creation you want to believe, and which version of Jesus you want to believe, and which version of the end you want to believe! After all, you might end up coming back as a elephant or something! Show some back-up for your 'immunity'.



Really!!!!! What about you show me WHERE GOD SAID THAT!? Oh, I know! You had a 'REVELATION'! (which of course, I won't find anywhere in Scripture because it's 'new'!)

What church do you attend?

 

[Groundzero]

What church do you attend?

Does that really matter? What matters is whether you use the Bible or not. All I see you doing is posing questions, but no Scripture. Questions without a back-up are useless.

 

[watsoncarl53]

Does that really matter? What matters is whether you use the Bible or not. All I see you doing is posing questions, but no Scripture. Questions without a back-up are useless.

I do not take the Lord's name in vain. You do not know what that means do you?

I do not take the Lord's name in vain. You do not know what that means do you?

I am not going to teach you either.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

My name was predestined to be in The Book of Life.

I had nothing to do with it.

It was written in The Book of Life, before I was born.

God determined who hears his word.

God determined who believed his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would hear his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would believe his word.

He already had predetermined that I would believe his word because He

had predetermined I would hear his word and believe his word.

To which came to pass,

because God wrote my name in The Book of Life

before the world was created

and I was born.

Can you disprove this?

May I suggest that the problem with these statements is that they are about you....not God. You have made it out that God did all these things for you (and to an extent He did), when God's Word may suggest different. Please bear with my explanation for just a moment:

1. The Promise was not made to you, the promise was made to Abraham's Seed, which is Christ (Galatians 3:14-19). So your second statement was the most accurate one.

2. You are an heir to that promise (Hebrews 6:13-20), but it still has nothing to do with you, it has everything to do with God through Christ....and He keeps His promises. It is impossible for Him to lie.

3. You were born into sin. (Romans 5:12-14)

4. God cannot have fellowship with sin. (Psalm 5:4-6, 2 Corintians 5:21)

5. It then stands to reason....God did not know you until you became an heir of the Promise. He does, of course, desire all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), so he makes His word available to all who wish it....and some who don't so that He can keep His promise.

 

[Butch5]

My name was predestined to be in The Book of Life.

I had nothing to do with it.

It was written in The Book of Life, before I was born.

God determined who hears his word.

God determined who believed his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would hear his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would believe his word.

He already had predetermined that I would believe his word because He

had predetermined I would hear his word and believe his word.

To which came to pass,

because God wrote my name in The Book of Life

before the world was created

and I was born.

Can you disprove this?

What is the basis for you statement and belief that your name was written in the book before the foundation of the world? Are you referring to Revelation 17:8?

 

[ttruscott]

My name was predestined to be in The Book of Life.

I had nothing to do with it.

It was written in The Book of Life, before I was born.

God determined who hears his word.

God determined who believed his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would hear his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would believe his word.

He already had predetermined that I would believe his word because He

had predetermined I would hear his word and believe his word.

To which came to pass,

because God wrote my name in The Book of Life

before the world was created

and I was born.

Can you disprove this?

Our true free will choice to join GOD's Church in loving holy communion was the reason HE wrote our names into the Book of life. We had everything to do with it.

Here is the logic:

The nature of Predestination, Election and Free Will according to PCE (Pre-Conception Existence):

{Aside: I wrote this in story form because it gets the facts across better than a numeric list, for example. I do not claim to know the nicety of the details...}

Once upon a time, GOD decided to increase the amount of love They shared by creating others who could share with Them Their loving nature (or image) and so increase the amount of love in existence. [I'm a Trinitarian, but the theology works for any Unity of God you choose.]

Is there any scripture baldly stating this? No, (but neither is the diety of the messiah proven) just logical assumptions based on the revealed nature of God as Love.

Creation Problems?
But They realized only a truly free will choice, (made by faith, without proof), to love would enable the created person to become a real loving person. (Natural unassailable logic.)

Creating a person who is merely a tape recorder saying, "I love you, I love you," is obviously inadequate. Causing such fear and dread, or seducing awe in a person so they say, ever so fondly, "I love you," is also inadequate to increase the amount of true love in existence.

Therefore They had to set up such a situation in which a created person could become a loving person by their own real choice. Such a choice would have to be a true free will choice uncoerced by anything at all and made on faith without proof because proof before the choice was made would coerce the choice.

The Necessities of a True Free Will Choice:
Nothing in their created nature could move them to choose love or hate, good or evil.

Nothing in their experience could move them to choose love or hate, good or evil.

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could move them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

(Now, ask yourself: is this possible on earth?)

Pure love; Pure Evil:
It was also apparent that IF a love so pure it could never turn against the object of its love was to be possible by a personal true free will choice, then it must also be possible that the outcome of the personal true free will choice could be pure evil, or an evil so committed to evil it will never/can never choose to reject their evil to try to seek good.

Such a choice to reject the call to becoming a loving person (in God's image) therefore was to become totally estranged from the Will of God, and the reason for their creation, which is the definition of evil. God also knew that such evil children would never quit hating Him and His loving followers nor would they ever quit trying to corrupt or destroy them so He knew such a choice to become evil meant the evil child of God would have to be separated from the rest of creation for eternity; separated from the joys of God's love and His other children. This place of separation from the will and love of God is called hell.

True Free Will and Eternal Choice:
Since a true free will choice was the most perfect and only real choice the created person could ever make, expressing his most inner nature, once chosen the choice could never be changed due to the coercion caused by the loss of innocence caused by seeing the results of the choice.

Thus the possibility of a true increase in the amount of real love in existence also meant the possibility of someone (or all) choosing to become evil (rejecting God's will for them) and so bringing evil into God's creation.

The Coercive Nature of Their Glory:
The other problem They faced was Their Glory. If They showed Themselves to Their creations in all Their glory, it would be a coercion upon these people to bow to these obviously superior beings and thus destroy their ability to truly love. So They chose in Their wisdom to hide Their glory and to look to be as one of us, the created beings, Their children.

The Problem of Their Omniscience:
Then They came to the question: if They knew that one of their children would in fact make a free will choice to reject their offer of love and thus become estranged from Them (evil) forever, would it not be better if the person was not created and so miss the sufferings of hell? Since this would result in the creation of only those who would choose to love Them, it in fact destroyed the possibility of true love being increased as the created child was so destined and the choice was empty and not a true free will choice at all.

This forced the necessity that in this one instance God must abrogate His omniscience and decide to not know the outcome of the true free will choice Their children would make. This was accomplished by God's Decrees of Creation. His omniscience knew only that which He decreed to be created. If He did not decree its creation, He did not know it and it did not exist.

But by allowing His creation to choose on their own without coercion of any kind and totally free of His Divine Decree, He would ensure that this one time their choice would be a true free will choice made by faith.

Once all these decisions were in place, the three Godly Spirits created the perfect number of innocent/ingenuous children and lived among them as they explored each other and the spirit place they were in, called Sheol.

Finally the perfect time came for God to start the process of increasing the amount of love in existence. First They announced that though They looked the same as everyone else, They were in fact Divine and so were worthy of being worshipped as God in a way none other could ever be. They also claimed to have created everyone else for the purpose of becoming loving beings and that that process would start with them bowing to the Three as God.

They explained the nature of a true free will choice and also the nature of the consequences of the choice fixing their inner nature forever into the mold of their choice. Then the consequences of becoming evil were explored including the necessity of the separation called hell, and that the act of bowing to Them would save those who bowed from ever having to experience hell themselves.

Some enterprising spirits asked: "But what if we choose to bow to you as God to escape hell and then ignored you forever?"

God told them that once they bowed and became His church, no matter how far they might stray from His will into evil or how strongly they might reject His love, that because of their own free will choice He could always return them to that choice and help them to become the holy, perfect, loving children they chose to become that would increase the amount of love in existence.

In fact He promised to do all that was necessary to abrogate their sins and make them holy and acceptable to be in His holy presence, calling this promise election. He also made a promise to His future church that their eternal enemies would not be around forever to torment them but they would end separated forever in a in lake of fire, a promise He called predestination.

And so the community of spirits pondered and discussed these revelations among themselves until they knew their inner heart's desire and then came the time of choice, the time of testing the spirits.

The vast majority chose to bow and to become loving spirits in God's image and members in His Church with their names written into the Book of Life, for their own reasons, but a few rejected the Three, calling Them liars and boasters and claimed they were the equal of the Three and so refused to bow, declaring that they too were worthy of worship and that the love they had already was as good as Godly love anytime.

Now, you disprove this...

God bless...

 

[NicholasMarks]

My name was predestined to be in The Book of Life.

I had nothing to do with it.

It was written in The Book of Life, before I was born.

God determined who hears his word.

God determined who believed his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would hear his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would believe his word.

He already had predetermined that I would believe his word because He

had predetermined I would hear his word and believe his word.

To which came to pass,

because God wrote my name in The Book of Life

before the world was created

and I was born.

Can you disprove this?

The requirement for becoming saved in the cotext of Jesus Christ's teaching isn't what we ourselves think. It must be obvious that many people have many slants on Christianity and some of these are foolish. The real test is...are you following Jesus Christ's accurate teaching and even though we are often wrong...if we persevere...we will get it right eventually...that is one of the Holy Bibles attributes...it slowly builds and repairs then strengthens its teaching. The worst thing we can do is rely on others thinking...they may have got it wrong and are leading you astray...and that is iniquity.

I am sure you are right but don't rest on your laurels...keep up the 'good' work.

 

[lawrance]

My name was predestined to be in The Book of Life.

I had nothing to do with it.

It was written in The Book of Life, before I was born.

God determined who hears his word.

God determined who believed his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would hear his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would believe his word.

He already had predetermined that I would believe his word because He

had predetermined I would hear his word and believe his word.

To which came to pass,

because God wrote my name in The Book of Life

before the world was created

and I was born.

Can you disprove this?

Yes.
Are you saying that some are and some were not.

 

[Surf Rider]

Lively, foreknowledge results in predestination, according to God's way of looking at things. Read Romans. "Those he foreknew, he predestined". It is correct to state that he foreknew, thus he predestined. Read more of what God says how he looks at it: so that election might stand, even before they were born, God chose Jacob and rejected Esau, and God states that this is true to the extent that he hated Esau and loved Jacob..... before they were born.

Kind of sticks in the craw of many modern believers, huh?

 

[Butch5]

Lively, foreknowledge results in predestination, according to God's way of looking at things. Read Romans. "Those he foreknew, he predestined". It is correct to state that he foreknew, thus he predestined. Read more of what God says how he looks at it: so that election might stand, even before they were born, God chose Jacob and rejected Esau, and God states that this is true to the extent that he hated Esau and loved Jacob..... before they were born.

Kind of sticks in the craw of many modern believers, huh?

Hi Surf,

Actually, those God foreknew in Romans were the Jews. Paul makes that clear in chapter 11.

KJV Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​

[sup]2[/sup] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, {of Elias: Gr. in Elias?}

Paul doesn't say that god hated Esau before he was born, he says that God chose Jacob over Esau.This can be seen when the passages are viewed in context.

In Romans 9 Paul is speaking about the Jews. If you read the entire book of Romans you find that in chapter 2:17 Paul says, 'thou art called a Jew'. He continues this line of discussion all the way through 11:13 where he says, 'for I turn to you gentiles. From 2:17-11:13 Paul is speaking to the Jews about the Jews. The election that he speaks of is Israel. If you look at the context it becomes clear.

[sup]9[/sup] For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
[sup]10[/sup] And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
[sup]11[/sup] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
[sup]12[/sup] It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. {elder: or, greater} {younger: or, lesser}
[sup]13[/sup] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Rom 9:9-13 KJV)

When you go back an look at what Paul is addressing it is clear.
[sup]21[/sup] And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
[sup]22[/sup] And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
[sup]23[/sup] And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. (Gen 25:21-23 KJV)

You can clearly see what Paul is addressing. Two nations were to come from Rebekah, Jacob and Esau are representative of their nations, Jacob the Israelites and Esau the Edomites. Notice we have the same words Paul quoted. God's election was Israel over the Edomites to be the nation though which the Christ would come. Regarding Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated, the first mention of this is in the last book of the OT.

KJV Malachi 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. {by...: Heb. by the hand of}
[sup]2[/sup] I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
[sup]3[/sup] And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
[sup]4[/sup] Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
(Mal 1:1-4 KJV)

Consider what the Lord says here about Esau’s (Edomites) destruction with what took place.

KJV Obadiah 1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.
[sup]2[/sup] Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.
[sup]3[/sup] The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?
[sup]4[/sup] Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.
[sup]5[/sup] If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes? {some...: or, gleanings?}
[sup]6[/sup] How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!
[sup]7[/sup] All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him. {that were...: Heb. of thy peace} {they...: Heb. the men of thy bread} {in him: or, of it}
[sup]8[/sup] Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?
[sup]9[/sup] And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.
[sup]10[/sup] For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.
[sup]11[/sup] In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them. {captive...: or, his substance}
[sup]12[/sup] But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress. {spoken...: Heb. magnified thy mouth}
[sup]13[/sup] Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity; {substance: or, forces}
[sup]14[/sup] Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress. {delivered up: or, shut up}
[sup]15[/sup] For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
[sup]16[/sup] For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. {swallow...: or, sup up}
[sup]17[/sup] But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. {deliverance: or, they that escape} {there...: or, it shall be holy}
[sup]18[/sup] And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
[sup]19[/sup] And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
[sup]20[/sup] And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south. {which...: or, shall possess that which is in}
[sup]21[/sup] And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
(Oba 1:1 KJV)

 

[Lively Stone]

Lively, foreknowledge results in predestination, according to God's way of looking at things. Read Romans. "Those he foreknew, he predestined". It is correct to state that he foreknew, thus he predestined. Read more of what God says how he looks at it: so that election might stand, even before they were born, God chose Jacob and rejected Esau, and God states that this is true to the extent that he hated Esau and loved Jacob..... before they were born.

Kind of sticks in the craw of many modern believers, huh?

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestined for what? Not to become believers, but for those who follow after Christ, they are predestined to become like Christ. God does lead people to the point of choice. He never pushes anyone across. He is not an orchestrator of people's decision for or against Christ, for His desire is that NONE should perish.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

 

[ttruscott]

I have some thoughts on this topic:

My 1st premise is is always GOD is LOVE. If a doctrine seems to fail the test of love, then it is the doctrine that is false, not HIS love. My second premise is that GOD's purpose for us is for us to love and glorify HIM forever.

Romans 5:8 - While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

At the time Christ died for you, were you yet a sinner? According to preconception theology you were, without any twisting, reinterpretations or theological wonders. Seems that Paul might have thought so too...

[Aside: since I'm new: Pre-Concption Existence theology suggests that all spirits created in GOD's imagage were created at the same time in the spirit world, (part of Sheol) and not on earth, and while there we had our true free will experiences, our first hearing of the gospel and our eleciton...]

Romans 8:29 - For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.

From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life on earth. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

GOD obviously does not "before life" know everybody in the manner of verse 8:29 since not everyone will become like Jesus, as per Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As more than one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD before creation/life love some and not the rest?

The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in the creatures, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life on earth, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:

Romans 9:11 - For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth...

Romans 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy.

Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not "before creation" love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.

Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge being particular can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures, we must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.

"Unreasonable chance" would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before creation" love. Whom GOD elects / foreknows is based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, a new understanding from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to preconception theology, the before life love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life-on-earth (NOT pre-creation) approval of some and rejection of the rest is based on the prior uncoerced true free will choice of HIS child and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.

Therein is the reason why HE loved some before life on earth and why HE did not love the rest.

Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves and some had not.

Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly (the angels), and others (the fallen church) only if HE was infallibly gracious to them.

Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other, evil ones, for the Day of Judgement and established them for the correction of the fallen elect.

To explore how my thoughts go a little more... Let's consider "works."

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

This Scripture does not prove that we existed before our conception. The reason I am including it is that I believe that it does not invalidate preconception theology, and I am sure a lot of people will think that it and others like it do.

May I submit that when the Scriptures speak of works in relation to our election, they are referring to only our works after we're born, i.e., no one was elected on account of any works they would do in this life on earth.

[Aside: Now, if there is anyone who would like to disagree with me on this and would like to debate whether Paul intended that our pre-life works were also to be included in the works that were excluded as part of the basis of GOD's election, I would be very interested in seeing your argument. I suppose that this isn't necessary, but I would like to (first) point out that any such argument must admit to our pre-existence.]

The second thing I would like to point out is that we were called according to HIS purpose. This must mean so that we could fulfil HIS purpose for us, to love and glorify HIM forever. But if this is so, then there must be an uncoerced true free will choice on our part for us to ever to have the possibility of glorifying GOD, since true love and true worship can only come by true choice.

Therefore I say that being called according to HIS purpose and grace is almost exactly the same as saying, being called in accord with our uncoerced choice and HIS covenant, and if making that choice is a work, since earthly works are out, then it is the same as saying, being called in accord with a preconception work and HIS gracious covenant to those who performed that work.

The third thing I would like to point out is that the angels are elected too.
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.

Angels are a lot different than men (at least, that is what many believe), in that they do not have what is usually called “racial solidarity”. This means that they have to make all their own choices. No one else can make them for them and they can not be held accountable for someone else's evil choices. In other words, Adam's choices do not affect them at all (supposedly).

Perhaps someone would like to tell me on what basis GOD elected only some of them?

If it was not on the basis of their individual choices, then they had to be elected before the satanic rebellion, at least. But if GOD's election took place before the satanic rebellion, would this not lead us into the pretty incredulous situation of some unblemished creatures, (the pre-fall angels of the satanic rebellion) being unjustly unpredestined to remain in heaven?

And what reasonable basis can we put forward for this situation other than HE simply did not want them to be with HIM forever? This situation does not look too good, does it?

Well then, what if no one was elected before the rebellion, that is, what if GOD's election took place after the rebellion? Then GOD's election took place after they all had made an eternal choice, and presumably that true free will choice would be taken into account when GOD was doing HIS electing. It would have to be if HE was holy and just.

Now, the main thing I am trying to bring out with all of this is that when we just begin to consider the election of angels, we run into some pretty unreasonable implications if we leave out their choice as being a part of the basis of their election, and the only other real alternative necessitates that we accept that their eternal choice was at least a part of the basis of their election.

May I submit that the only thing going against that possibility is the presupposition that Paul, in 2 Timothy 1:9 is excluding all our works, and I have to admit, that is what it seems to say, that is, what it seems to say until we look at Paul's definition of elective works in

Romans 9:11 - For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth.

Now, I do not think that I will get much argument when I say that the works of 2 Timothy 1:9 are the same works as are mentioned in this verse in Romans. In other words, Paul defines works the same in both verses.

And just how does he define works? Well, in Romans, Paul is referring to Genesis 25:22 - And the children struggled together within her. The children are Jacob and Esau, and Paul says that at the time of GOD's statement to Rebecca, to the effect that the elder shall serve the younger, that neither of them had done any good or evil (works).

But the reason Rebecca had prayed to GOD was that she was having such a hard time of it because Jacob and Esau were fighting so much in the womb. Now, if they were fighting, at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works. (Or we'd have to admit that they were each fighting the other by the will of GOD.)

Well now, we either have a blatant contradiction and must dismiss Paul's works theology as being somewhat amiss, or we have to admit that the Pauline definition of works does not exclude pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election.

So this is how I understand these verses and how they are extrapolated from the two premises from which I try to interpret scripture.

Since damnation of HIS beloved children is on the line, election must be based on a reason, not whim.

Foreknowledge of us before our creation does not work because He did not have to create those HE foreknew would rebel against HIM.

The fact that they were created and are under HIS wrath is proof that foreknow must have come after their true free will choice whose results HE did not, before the choice, know.

So thanks for your patience. I hope you understand me a bit better.

God bless...

Ted