Can You Lose Your Salvation ?
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please show me in scripture where being born again happens over and over. the word teaches us to renew our minds but where does it say we are to be born again over and over again?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
The Bible describes the experience of being born again throughout the NT. It is not specific about how many times it happens to a person. It certainly does not limited the experience to a one time event. Paul talks about being transformed through a renewing of the mind so that we are not conformed to the world - that is certainly a daily, sometime minute by minute process. I certainly would not want to limit being born again to the utterance of a formulaic, static, nonbiblical phrase like 'Jesus come into my heart'.God is not a Jinn who wants to hear the magic phrase before granting our wish. Instead, our relationship with God is a dynamic, mind / heart / will bending experience where we are transformed daily.
Marriages are born again all the time when couples recognize their love for each other in a new way.
Every time a person was healed or responded to Jesus in a new way in the NT account, they were born again.
I think we can get the wrong idea about what Jesus was talking about when He used the phrase 'born again', if we see it as an instant justification / sanctification, 'now you are a transformed saint', 'instant citizen of heaven' kind of way. Nicodemus is an example of someone who misunderstood Jesus when he took the phrase too literally by asking how a person could enter his mother's womb for the second time (John 3:4), and we can be guilty of misunderstanding, as well, if we try to bog down the phrase in too much theology. Being born again simply refers to transformation of the heart that can only happen through revelation from God.
Being Born-Again means your spirit has been made alive unto God. It is the point when God's Spirit and nature takes up residence within our human spirit creating a new man within us. This is different from renewing our minds. Our spirit has been changed at the new birth but not our minds/our soul. We have to renew our minds with the Word of God, but again, this is different from the new birth experience because pursuing and obtaining the mind of Christ is an ongoing process. My son will always be my son, he does not need to be born again to become my son nor could he.
the answer to the question of whether of not we can lose our salvation is as follows.
look at matt 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake, but he who perseveres and endures to the end will be saved [[sup][g][/sup]from spiritual disease and death in the world to come]. this verse shows us that we need to persevere and endure in order to be saved. so then if we do not persevere and endure then we will not be saved. it is not how we start our relationship with Christ that really matters but how we end our lives with or without Jesus.
heb 3:12 [Therefore beware] brethren, take care, lest there be in any one of you a wicked, unbelieving heart [which refuses to cleave to, trust in, and rely on Him], leading you to turn away and desert or stand aloof from the living God. this verse is referring to apostasy. which is the departing or turning away. this is a deliberate and willful choice.
phil 3:10 says [For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[sup][b][/sup]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope] shows us what we as christians should be striving to know more of Christ.
with that said we now know that in order to fall away from God we had to of been with God at one time. if we were with God at some point in our lives then we had to of been saved.
heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, [sup]5[/sup]And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, [sup]6[/sup]If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.
shows us that those that fell away as long as they hold Christ responsible we cannot bring back. again these people had to of been saved at one point in their lives in order for this to happen to them.
heb 10:26-31 says For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward]. [sup]27[/sup][There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God]. [sup]28[/sup]Any person who has violated and [thus] rejected and set at naught the Law of Moses is put to death without pity or mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. [sup]29[/sup]How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)? [sup]30[/sup]For we know Him Who said, Vengeance is Mine [retribution and the meting out of full justice rest with Me]; I will repay [I will exact the compensation], says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge and determine and solve and settle the cause and the cases of His people. [sup]31[/sup]It is a fearful (formidable and terrible) thing to incur the divine penalties and be cast into the hands of the living God!
shows us the same thing that these people knew Christ and are going to be judged harshly.
i hope this helps
God bless
look at matt 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake, but he who perseveres and endures to the end will be saved [[sup][g][/sup]from spiritual disease and death in the world to come]. this verse shows us that we need to persevere and endure in order to be saved. so then if we do not persevere and endure then we will not be saved. it is not how we start our relationship with Christ that really matters but how we end our lives with or without Jesus.
heb 3:12 [Therefore beware] brethren, take care, lest there be in any one of you a wicked, unbelieving heart [which refuses to cleave to, trust in, and rely on Him], leading you to turn away and desert or stand aloof from the living God. this verse is referring to apostasy. which is the departing or turning away. this is a deliberate and willful choice.
phil 3:10 says [For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[sup][b][/sup]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope] shows us what we as christians should be striving to know more of Christ.
with that said we now know that in order to fall away from God we had to of been with God at one time. if we were with God at some point in our lives then we had to of been saved.
heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, [sup]5[/sup]And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, [sup]6[/sup]If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.
shows us that those that fell away as long as they hold Christ responsible we cannot bring back. again these people had to of been saved at one point in their lives in order for this to happen to them.
heb 10:26-31 says For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward]. [sup]27[/sup][There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God]. [sup]28[/sup]Any person who has violated and [thus] rejected and set at naught the Law of Moses is put to death without pity or mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. [sup]29[/sup]How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)? [sup]30[/sup]For we know Him Who said, Vengeance is Mine [retribution and the meting out of full justice rest with Me]; I will repay [I will exact the compensation], says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge and determine and solve and settle the cause and the cases of His people. [sup]31[/sup]It is a fearful (formidable and terrible) thing to incur the divine penalties and be cast into the hands of the living God!
shows us the same thing that these people knew Christ and are going to be judged harshly.
i hope this helps
God bless
St. Paul wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk. dedikaiomai ] it is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27)
Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
The"Church" taught me to say this when asked ," Are you saved? "-
This is the way I was taught to answer as a Catholic,my reply would be: "As the Bible says, I am 'already saved '(Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also 'being' saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I 'will be' saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
The"Church" taught me to say this when asked ," Are you saved? "-
This is the way I was taught to answer as a Catholic,my reply would be: "As the Bible says, I am 'already saved '(Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also 'being' saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I 'will be' saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
All experiences of God are a re-birth. Of course, your son will always be your son, but there are going to be moments in his life when that relationship takes on a special meaning for him. This is the awe and wonder we are called to have which is often referred to as fear in the OT.
We sure want to tie up this salvation agreement in a hurry - best way to get the best deal! Unfortunately we are not buying a new car or trying to get the best fixed rate on a mortgage - salvation is not a product or a possession - it is a transformation of our being and it does not happen instantly. No relationship has that quality about it. People who has been happily married for 50 years have a deeper, more meaningful relationship with each other than people who have been married for 50 minutes.
I like this response - time is taken out of the equation. We are being born, reborn and kneeing in front of God's throne in Heaven at the same time.
aspen2, you are confusing the rebirth with the renewing of our minds. The first is a one time experience while the second is a process as we learn and grow in the Word and any new experiences that we may have during this growing process occurs in the soul and not multiple born-again experiences. Hebrews 6:4-6...and even when a person rededicates their life to God, it does'nt mean they are being born-again again, they are simply making a dicision to recommit their lives to the born-again experience that they already have sealed within them.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I am not claiming that a renewing of our minds is the only form of rebirth - that would be gnostic. It is merely an example of the rebirthing experience. Turning towards God is repentance and rebirth - turning away from God and relying on ourselves is sin and calls for repentance. Every time we repent we experience God's mercy and a rebirth (experience of God) - so is it worth sinning just so we can experience God's love and mercy all over again? Not according to Paul.
It is better to be vulnerable with God as much as possible by sacrificing our tendency to turn away even when it is difficult. We need all the sanctification we can get.
This is a romantic idea not a biblical one. The bible should not be used for a human inspiration.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
First of all it is not 'our' salvation. Salvation belongs to the Lord.Psalm 3:8
Then we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4
And we were sealed as His until that Day. Ephesians 1:13.
To leave you with one other Scripture that has helped me when I went through a similar ringer...
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
(Rom 5:10)
See, not only by His death were we saved, but by His life (perfect obedience) we shall be saved. In other words our salvation is dependent on Him and His perfect work from first to last, not us, lest any should boast.
Then we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4
And we were sealed as His until that Day. Ephesians 1:13.
To leave you with one other Scripture that has helped me when I went through a similar ringer...
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
(Rom 5:10)
See, not only by His death were we saved, but by His life (perfect obedience) we shall be saved. In other words our salvation is dependent on Him and His perfect work from first to last, not us, lest any should boast.
Yes you can lose your salvation;
I'm sorry to inform you but as according to Holy Scripture we can lose our salvation, that is, if we do not presevere to the end of our lives. We can chose[ free will ] to fall away .
Prism, one of the verses you used [ Rom. 5: 9-10 ] you misunderstand,let me explain, because since we are justified by the His Blood , we "shall" be saved, [ future tense ] if we persevere.
2 Tim. 4:8 – I believe that you as a Protestants often use this verse to prove “once saved, always saved,” even in the face of all Paul wrote about the possibility of losing his salvation (including his). But it is only at end of St. Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. This is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we indeed have a moral certitude of our salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We must persevere throughout our lives, and can choose to fall away.
Also, Catholics have more assurance of salvation that those who espouse “once saved, always saved.” This is because the only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian will not persevere to the end – but this is something a Christian cannot know during his life, and this necessarily imposes uncertainty upon him until the end. For Catholics, we know that salvation is ours to lose. For “once saved, always saved” Protestants, they don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.
Rom. 11:29 – “the gifts and the call of our God our irrevocable.” Some Protestants use this to prove “once saved, always saved.” But this verse has nothing to do with our response to salvation. It deals with God’s unmerited gifts and call to us. Moreover, if a person is in “the elect,” then his salvation is irrevocable. But we can never know if we are in the elect during our lives (“the elect” only deals with God’s knowledge).
Rom. 14:4 – and he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand. This is another verse Protestants use to prove “once saved, always saved.” But the verse speaks only to what God is able to do. It does not address what the person is free to do (accept God’s grace or reject it).
I'm sorry to inform you but as according to Holy Scripture we can lose our salvation, that is, if we do not presevere to the end of our lives. We can chose[ free will ] to fall away .
Prism, one of the verses you used [ Rom. 5: 9-10 ] you misunderstand,let me explain, because since we are justified by the His Blood , we "shall" be saved, [ future tense ] if we persevere.
2 Tim. 4:8 – I believe that you as a Protestants often use this verse to prove “once saved, always saved,” even in the face of all Paul wrote about the possibility of losing his salvation (including his). But it is only at end of St. Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. This is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we indeed have a moral certitude of our salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We must persevere throughout our lives, and can choose to fall away.
Also, Catholics have more assurance of salvation that those who espouse “once saved, always saved.” This is because the only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian will not persevere to the end – but this is something a Christian cannot know during his life, and this necessarily imposes uncertainty upon him until the end. For Catholics, we know that salvation is ours to lose. For “once saved, always saved” Protestants, they don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.
Rom. 11:29 – “the gifts and the call of our God our irrevocable.” Some Protestants use this to prove “once saved, always saved.” But this verse has nothing to do with our response to salvation. It deals with God’s unmerited gifts and call to us. Moreover, if a person is in “the elect,” then his salvation is irrevocable. But we can never know if we are in the elect during our lives (“the elect” only deals with God’s knowledge).
Rom. 14:4 – and he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand. This is another verse Protestants use to prove “once saved, always saved.” But the verse speaks only to what God is able to do. It does not address what the person is free to do (accept God’s grace or reject it).
Our choices are still ours and are still free. If our free choices change how the future will be, God already knows that and has known it for all eternity.
A person still exercises his/her own free will in choosing how to respond to their God given graces. We are redeemed because Jesus freely chose to suffer and die for us . There can be no love without the free choice to love. Jesus of course also had free will , because God cannot give what He does not have.
A person still exercises his/her own free will in choosing how to respond to their God given graces. We are redeemed because Jesus freely chose to suffer and die for us . There can be no love without the free choice to love. Jesus of course also had free will , because God cannot give what He does not have.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
So let me get this right... these beatings must be before God annihilates or torments
them. Does it really matter... being they will all be tormented or annihilated anyway...
or is that going to be their judgment.
I know what I did to my son when he was disobedient, and I did it because I loved
him, and wanted him to become a good and responsible person when he got older.
I guess my point is... if God is going to kill them anyway... why beat them... I don't
think God would do something without purpose... like beating them just for the sake
of a beating. Can someone help me understand exactly what God is going to do?
Logabe
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