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justbyfaith

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Again I'm not talking about being baptized

Born again vs born from above
But I am.

To be born again from above, one must needs be baptized (while there is a remote possibility in scripture that a person may be saved apart from that dunking). It appears to me to have an effect on a person's faith...Luke 7:29-30. And we are saved by grace through faith.
 

n2thelight

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But I am.

To be born again from above, one must needs be baptized (while there is a remote possibility in scripture that a person may be saved apart from that dunking). It appears to me to have an effect on a person's faith...Luke 7:29-30. And we are saved by grace through faith.

Okay lets talk

Born again and born from above has nothing whatsoever to do with baptism .Also born again and born from above are not mutually exclusive .All must be born from above,that's why the angels were condemned because they left,without doing that.
 

n2thelight

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I simply disagree with you. I do not advocate gambling on the interpretation of John 3:5.

All good ,but let's look at John

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

"Verily, verily" is "truly, truly". Jesus is telling him that there must be two births necessary; the birth of the water and of the spirit. Many people teach that this "born of the water", means to be baptized, and this is not what is being talked about. To be born from above is to be born of the womb of your mother. Every child is born in a bag of water, in fact the normal birth is announced by the breaking of the waters with in the birthing bag. So we see in this that one must be born of woman, in innocence, and then "be born of the spirit".

Born of the spirit means to accept the Spirit of Christ. That soul choosing by free will the Spirit of Christ into their spirit. That is what the marriage of Christ is all about; to become one in Christ.

This is why most people simply do not know what being "born from above means", when they disregard what happened in the book of Genesis, and in that first earth age. They overlook all of Satan's attempts to destroy the womb of woman, and God's plan to send us His Son that we might have redemption. God intervened in Satan attempt, as He always will do. This is why the book of Jude is so important.

Do you,and I'm not gambling !!!!!
 

Reggie Belafonte

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You ever consider the phrase,born from above instead of born again?


John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This is a very interesting statement, and in most King James Bibles the margin reads "again" as being "from above". In Strong's Greek dictionary, # 509, the word is "Anothen", "from above". You will never understand this statement that Jesus made unless you understand what it means to be "born from above." In a later verse, it is documented that you must be "born from above", or your soul will be lost for eternity.

The church world has their sayings and songs that "Ye must be born again", and yet these verses they sin miss the mark, because they do not understand what it means to be "born from above" [born again]. This is part of God's plan that everyone [every soul] be born of woman, from above. For documentation we find in the Book of Jude whereby the penalty of the fallen angels is given, in as much as they left their place of habitation. Angels are to inhabit heaven, or paradise at this time, in the flesh age.

Jude 6; "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Angels are not to be on the earth in the flesh age, except on special mission by God Himself. These angels that are in chains and bound for destruction, left the heavens without the permission of God, and as it is written in Genesis 6, were not born from above, but came from above. They were not born of woman, but observed woman and made play mates out of them.

Genesis 6:1, 2; "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, " [1] "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." [2]

These angles cohabited with them, and the offspring of this weird relationship between these Nephilim, or fallen angels and women were the "geber" which is to say "giants". They were the misfits that roamed the earth. This was contrary to God's plan, and it was in this way that Satan and his tribe of fallen angels hoped to destroy the daughters of Adam, whereby there would not be a womb of humanity fitting to bring forth the promised Messiah, the Christ child. What was left would only be Satanic, angelic hybrids which would be a mixture of man and angel.

This is why the flood of Noah's day came to pass.

Genesis 6:4; "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God [the angels] came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare (children) [the word children is not in the text] to them, the same (became) [not in the text] mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

This inbreeding caused the entire population of Adamic man to be contaminated, and to be worthless for God's plan. These offspring of the wicked angels had the mind of their parents, "and wickedness was great upon the earth". The children of these angels were as wicked as their fathers, which were the fallen angels.

Genesis 6:8, 9; "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." [8] "THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH; Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." [9]

Notice the phrase, "perfect in his generations". "Perfect" is from the Hebrew word, "tamin", meaning "without blemish as to breed or pedigree". Friend, this perfection is talking about ones blood line. The blood line [pedigree] of Noah and his family. There was only one Adamic family left on the face of the earth that was perfect in it's generations, and had not mixed with the fallen angels. So God destroyed the earth, and all the wicked ones with the flood. They were destroyed, and their souls as recorded in Jude 6 are being held for destruction.

Back to John 3; in other words, this "death" was to go contrary to God's plan. The people did, but it is essential that one be "born from above". Your soul comes from above, from God, for we were with God in that first earth age, and upon death Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that our souls return immediately to God.

Within God's plan, because of what happened in the first earth age, all souls must be born innocent from above. God's plan requires that each soul come into this world age through it's mother's womb, and make its own mind up whether that soul will follow God or Satan. That is free will, the right to chose the final destination of your own soul. They must be born innocent of the what happened in the first earth age, and the result of that first overthrow by Satan's downfall, as recorded in Genesis 1:2, when "the earth became void".

Therefore Christ is giving the very basics of salvation to Nicodemus.

John 3:4 "Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Nicodemus still just did not understand what Jesus was saying, because he could only see the flesh realm and the law. He was looking only at the flesh.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

"Verily, verily" is "truly, truly". Jesus is telling him that there must be two births necessary; the birth of the water and of the spirit. Many people teach that this "born of the water", means to be baptized, and this is not what is being talked about. To be born from above is to be born of the womb of your mother. Every child is born in a bag of water, in fact the normal birth is announced by the breaking of the waters with in the birthing bag. So we see in this that one must be born of woman, in innocence, and then "be born of the spirit".

Born of the spirit means to accept the Spirit of Christ. That soul choosing by free will the Spirit of Christ into their spirit. That is what the marriage of Christ is all about; to become one in Christ.

This is why most people simply do not know what being "born from above means", when they disregard what happened in the book of Genesis, and in that first earth age. They overlook all of Satan's attempts to destroy the womb of woman, and God's plan to send us His Son that we might have redemption. God intervened in Satan attempt, as He always will do. This is why the book of Jude is so important.

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

To understand this, lets go to I Corinthians 15:50; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

No soul in its flesh and blood body can enter the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of Heaven is where ever God is, and for the soul to enter that kingdom, it must first die or be changed. The soul must be separated from the flesh first before that soul returns to the Father that created it. This is the basic principle of the plan of our heavenly Father.

Remember back in Ecclesiastes 12:7; God told us what happens to the soul and the flesh when the flesh body dies. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Our flesh bodies are the accumulation of all the elements from the earth that we consume by eating. Upon death of ones body, the process then returns the decaying flesh body back to those elements. The soul's spirit came from God, and it will return to God when this flesh body dies. All will return to the Father, for He is the judge of your soul; whether for destruction or eternal life.

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus here, and Jesus knew that Nicodemus should have understand, but didn't.

John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

"Ye must be born again", as we have see, "ye must be born from above." If you are not born from above, that is to say, "born of woman", then you would be either a demonic spirit, or from a fallen angel. This is against God's law and the plan of God.

john3
Hogwash ! What the hell do you think the John the Baptist was doing, you fool !
Jesus got baptised with water by John the Baptist, you fool !

Being born again is what John the Baptist knew that he could not do, as he said that he was not worthy of and only the Holy Spirit does that Baptism.

Kingdom of God is one who is born again of the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus.
 

n2thelight

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Hogwash ! What the hell do you think the John the Baptist was doing, you fool !
Jesus got baptised with water by John the Baptist, you fool !

Being born again is what John the Baptist knew that he could not do, as he said that he was not worthy of and only the Holy Spirit does that Baptism.

Kingdom of God is one who is born again of the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus.

Do you man, I'm good!!!!!
 

farouk

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You are gambling on other men's souls, giving them a false assurance that they need not be baptized.

If you are wrong and baptism is necessary, some of them may go to hell because of your teaching.

Peace.
Baptism is symbolic, and in Acts 2.41 it was a sign that the people 'gladly received his word'. In the context, they did not become baptised in order to receive the word gladly; they were baptised because they gladly received his word.
 

justbyfaith

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Baptism is symbolic, and in Acts 2.41 it was a sign that the people 'gladly received his word'. In the context, they did not become baptised in order to receive the word gladly; they were baptised because they gladly received his word.
In Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, the Holy ghost is conditionally promised to those who will be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ fort he remission of sins.

In Colossians 2:11-15, it appears that forgiveness of sins is associated with baptism.

In Romans 6:1-5, walking in newness of life is associated with it.

In Galatians 3:27, those who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

In 1 Peter 3:20-21, there were eight who were saved by water...and these are figures of those of whom it is said that baptism doth also now save us.

In Acts of the Apostles 22:16, it is asked why we delay at being baptized; and also it is written there that in being baptized we will wash away our sins (if we have not yet received the sacrament).
 
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farouk

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In Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, the Holy ghost is conditionally promised to those who will be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ fort he remission of sins.

In Colossians 2:11-15, it appears that forgiveness of sins is associated with baptism.

In Romans 6:1-5, walking in newness of life is associated with it.

In Galatians 3:27, those who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

In 1 Peter 3:20-21, there were eight who were saved by water...and these are figures of those of whom it is said that baptism doth also now save us.

In Acts of the Apostles 22:16, it is asked why we delay at being baptized; and also it is written there that in being baptized we will wash away our sins (if we have not yet received the sacrament).
In Acts 22.16 the idea seems to be 'on account of the washing away of sins'. We don't have to wait for the water to wash sins away. It is by faith in the blood of Christ that this happens.
 

justbyfaith

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In Acts 22.16 the idea seems to be 'on account of the washing away of sins'. We don't have to wait for the water to wash sins away. It is by faith in the blood of Christ that this happens.
It has been said that the blood is in the water.

You are teaching people to gamble with their salvation.

I.e. "it might be true that the alternate interpretation of these verses is correct; therefore you do not need to be baptized, because they do not really teach that baptism is necessary."

And yet if they do, and the people you are teaching never get baptized because of your teaching, I believe that the Lord will hold you responsible for their damnation; because they failed to be baptized based on the premise that you taught them. They gambled on eternity, trusting in your words rather than the words of those who would exhort them to receive the sacrament, saying that it is not a thing to be trifled with.
 

farouk

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It has been said that the blood is in the water.

You are teaching people to gamble with their salvation.

I.e. it might be true that the alternate interpretation of these verses is correct; therefore you do not need to be baptized, because they do not really teach that baptism is necessary.

And yet if they do, and the people you are teaching never get baptized because of your teaching, I believe that the Lord will hold you responsible for their damnation; because they failed to be baptized based on the premise that you taught them. They gambled on eternity, trusting in your words rather than the words of those who would exhort them to receive the sacrament, saying that it is not a thing to be trifled with.
No, your characterization of the Biblical, symbolic understanding of baptism is not correct.
 

justbyfaith

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No, your characterization of the Biblical, symbolic understanding of baptism is not correct.
Those who desire to believe that they are saved (having not been baptized) will perhaps trust in your words; and then perish eternally because of it.

Those who truly desire to be saved (but do not have absolute assurance) will heed my words and they will ask, seek, knock, until they find and the door is opened, for them to receive baptism in Jesus' Name; and they will find that the promise of the Holy Ghost was conditionally given to them on the basis of their repenting and having been baptized in His name. Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39 speaks of a conditional promise given to as many as the Lord our God shall call. See also Romans 8:30. If you don't put in the work to understand it, how will you receive the blessing?
 
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n2thelight

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You are gambling on other men's souls, giving them a false assurance that they need not be baptized.

If you are wrong and baptism is necessary, some of them may go to hell because of your teaching.

Peace.

I'll stand before my Father alone,and if I lead any of His children astray I will pay the price for that.Have you stopped to think how many you are leading astray with the false doctrine of the rapture? . There is not one scripture that states one must be baptized.I think one should, as Christ set the example ,yet that is not the requirement for everlasting life!

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Does that verse say anything about being baptized ?
 

justbyfaith

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John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Does that verse say anything about being baptized ?
It is in the context (John 3:5).

Those who have been baptized are more inclined to believe (Luke 7:29-30).
 
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justbyfaith

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There is not one scripture that states one must be baptized.
The Bible teaches that a man can be saved through water baptism.

1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts of the Apostles 2:37-39, Acts of the Apostles 22:16, Colossians 2:11-15, Romans 6:1-5, Galatians 3:27, Ezekiel 36:25-27, etc.
 
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n2thelight

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Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation – The Meaning
People around the world ask this question: Is baptism necessary for salvation? The word "baptism" is a transliteration of the Greek word "baptisma" and this word is from a primary Greek verb "bapto," which is also the root of the word baptize. The word means to dip, to dye or to change the identification of. When a piece of white cloth was "bapto" into a vat of blue dye, it no longer was white cloth because its identification was changed to blue cloth. That is the root of the meaning of the word.

The rite of baptism was a ritual in the Jewish culture from the beginning. Ceremonial washing of priests and the dipping temple utensils into water was part of the law. For instance, a priest was "baptized" into his office as a priest and it was to dedicate and identify the priest in his position. This baptism set apart the priest to take part in the temple worship and sacrifices. The baptism of the utensils set them apart for a specific use in worship. When John the Baptist came on the scene, Jews came to him to be baptized for the confession of their sins. This was not for salvation because the LORD Jesus Christ had not yet paid the price for sin. The baptism of John the Baptist was an Old Testament economy baptism and it only signified the participant's willingness to confess his sin and therefore, John the Baptist's baptism was for repentance (Acts 19:4).

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation – The Biblical Evidence
It is interesting to note that Jesus did not baptize. "The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples" (John 4:1-2). If water baptism were necessary for salvation, wouldn't Jesus have baptized? Jesus presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah with signs and Messianic miracles, but He did not baptize them.

The Apostle Paul only baptized a few. "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel -- not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power" (1 Corinthians 1:13-17).

Those who teach that baptism is necessary for salvation overlook this statement of Paul's. If water baptism were necessary for salvation would not the Apostle Paul have made water baptism a central theme of his ministry? Rather, the Apostle Paul taught the "baptism of the Holy Spirit," which occurs when one is born again and it is a spiritual identification as the believer is placed IN Christ. "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free" (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Holy Spirit baptizes us or identifies us as a child of God and then seals us and sets us apart to the "day of redemption" or the day when our redemption will be completed and we see Him "face to face." "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30).

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation – The Conclusion
Is baptism necessary for salvation? If the question is concerning water baptism, the answer is no. We are not saved by ritual or works but by "grace through faith." "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, water baptism does not save us. However, the baptism of the Spirit is necessary for salvation and that has nothing whatever to do with water and it is not something we do for ourselves, it is God's gift to us at the moment we are born again.

If water baptism were not necessary for salvation, why then would someone be baptized? Baptism is an outward action based on an inward reality. Baptism is a testimony that the participant has trusted in Christ as Savior and they are identifying himself/herself by submitting themselves to baptism. We cannot rest our hope of salvation on something that we can do for ourselves, rather we must recognize our need of a Savior and accept the LORD Jesus Christ's finished work for our redemption. That finished work is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and three days later rose from the dead. Then, if we chose to be baptized, it is an act of testimony to others of the reality of our personal identification with Christ.

Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation
 

Naomi25

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Choose to become a Born-again Believer and be Caught Up in the Rapture Or you can choose to become a born-again believer after the rapture and try to live under anti-Christ rule where most believers then will face martyrdom as they must try to stay alive in the years of great tribulation judgments! Think!! and choose wisely!!

How about just 'choosing' Jesus because he is precious and right and true. Because he washes our souls clean by his work on the cross.
Don't get me wrong, I love talking about end times as much as the next person...but trying to frighten people to choose Jesus just because he's better than 'that other option', is got to be the lousiest sales pitch for the most beautiful thing in the world.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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I have heard some clowns claiming nowadays that you get saved first and then you can if you want to, get water baptised. now that is totally wrong.

No one gets saved first, one must always be water baptised first, I believe that Saul was water baptised as were a Lot of the Jews at the time sure were being baptised by John the Baptist we know that.

But from this clown I was talking to his mob claim to save people, by them saying words and then the one just repeats the same dribble and bingo they are Saved or claimed to be born again, such as this rubbish is blasphemy !

No man can claim to of Saved you, but that is what they are claiming. if this was so then John the Baptist could of Saved people as well, but he said that he could not do that, as he could not do such a thing, No man can Save another's Soul but for one Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit.

If any clown claims to be able to save others such is of Satan.
Much like a man can only lead a horse to water but he can't make him drink.

Old mate is a Jews for Jesus mob type fool and looks to the so called Messianic Jews as salvation and they have many Satanist that have joined this so called Church, so he tells me and want's me to look up what they say and I do not bother because such people who take on Satanism are not worthy to listen to for a start, you just keep away from such people who love any type of such. anyone who willing goes there into that stuff is not worthy to listen to for a start, they are demonic.
I have had Christian people ask me to come to some séance with them back in the early 80's and I have just flatly said no way ! no Christian does such a thing ever and they should know this. never get involved with idiots who would do any such things.

I listen to this old mate and all his rubbish but I can not get through to him as we are not on the same page, but I have learnt a lot.
I have listened to a lot of morons and I have learnt from them where they are coming from, be it religious nuts or just atheist morons as this helps much so in knowing what you are dealing with, it's all about getting a handle on and understanding fools and where that are truly at, because I never knew people thought in such a way, so it's been an education indeed.
I only wish I knew what I know now 30 years a go.