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Christ will come again

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by dragonfly, Mar 22, 2013.

  1. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    daq can you be sure Jesus really came to this Earth, died, and rose from the dead, as the savior of mankind. If you can change everything in the Bible into some spiritual parable, why not go all the way and tell us what the death, and resurrection of the Lord really means.
     
  2. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Enoch,

    Didn't the apostle Paul already do that in Romans 6?
     
  3. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Luke 1:57-80 KJV
    57. Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.
    58. And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her.
    59. And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father.
    60. And his mother answered and said, Not so; but he shall be called John.
    61. And they said unto her, There is none of thy kindred that is called by this name.
    62. And they made signs to his father, how he would have him called.
    63. And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John. And they marvelled all.
    64. And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God.
    65. And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea.
    66. And all they that heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him.
    67. And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
    68. Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69. And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    70. As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71. That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72. To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73. The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    74.
    That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    75. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
    76. And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
    77. To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
    78.
    Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring [GSN#395 Anatole - Rising Light] from on high hath visited us,
    79. To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
    80. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.


    Deuteronomy 11:18-21 KJV
    18. Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
    19. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
    20. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
    21.
    That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.

    Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, and hath raised up an horn of Salvation for us in the house of his servant David; as he spake since the aion by the mouth of his holy prophets: that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; to perform the mercy promised with our fathers, and to remember his holy Covenant; an oath which he sware to our father Abraham, that he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. That through the washing of the water into the word immersion of Yochanan the Immerser, and forerunner of Messiah, we might receive understanding of salvation through repentance into the remission of our sins, through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the Dayspring Yeshua Anatole Rising Light from on high hath visited us, to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the Way of Peace:


    [​IMG]

    That our days may be multiplied, as the days of the heavens upon the earth, (Deuteronomy 11:21). :)
     
  4. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, dragonfly.

    Don't confuse the picture with the subject of the picture! Not everything in the Scriptures is a picture - just an image or an analogy of the substance; much of it is the SUBSTANCE ITSELF! In fact, what good is the picture without the subject? What good is an analogy based on the substance without the substance itself? Yeshua` did INDEED die physically, as any man can die, although His death was far superior in its purpose. He died haKeves Elohiym - the sacrificial Lamb of God, taking our place for us that we might not have to pay the penalty for our sins when we die. HOWEVER, He did INDEED PHYSICALLY COME BACK TO LIFE!

    Now, if one wants to draw some parallel - some analogy - some lesson - from that, go ahead, but NEVER lose sight of the fact that the reality is better!
     
  5. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    You and your friends need to get down off your high horses and stop falsely accusing those who disagree with your flesh fantasies. No one has even suggested that Yeshua did not physically die. If you and those with you desire a "basics thread full of milk" then why do you not go start your own? If you desire to stay at the banks of the River of Life, abiding in only the ankle deep level for the rest of your lives, then by all means you have that right. However, you do not have the right to prevent others from fully entering into the kingdom of God. You are no different than your fathers; the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, who not only would not enter the River of Life themselves but likewise blocked they Way for anyone else who would enter into the deeper things of God.
     
  6. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Blessings, daq. :)



    Hi Retrobyter,

    I'm not quite sure how your reply to my comment to Enoch moves us any further forward.

    You do know (from our discussion about Daniel's word that Messiah would be cut off for sin, but not His own) that I believe He died. Baptism as a picture only works for us because He did die. I am not confused about that bit of the substance.

    Enoch asked (daq to) 'go all the way and tell us what the death, and resurrection of the Lord really means.' You have given one part of it, but there is much more substance which is hardly understood, or is not understood at all by a great many Christians in every generation. (I'm not picking on readers of CyB.) This is a perennial truth - of epidemic proportions at the moment.

    What is this substance of which I speak, which is so little understood and so instinctively resisted by so many? The following verses touch on it.

    2 Corinthians 5: '... we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

    1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness.

    Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ ...'


    So, since the substance of Christ's death is that in His death He took both us and sin to the grave - and sin is spiritual - one of the most important aspects of Christ's death is that we can be baptised into His death in reality and thereby freed from 'the sin'. That is the gospel.

    The next step is that we stop living according to the flesh, and start living according to the power of His endless life.


    Regarding the earth and the heavens being changed:

    Psalm 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth:
    and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

    26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure:
    yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment;
    as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
    27 But thou art the same,
    and thy years shall have no end.


    Hebrews 1
    10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth;
    and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    11 They shall perish; but thou remainest;
    and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed:
    but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.


    I'll be interested to hear from the scholars how much similarity is implied by the word 'changed'. Is it one kind of clothes for another kind of clothes (as in one kind of earth for another kind of earth - and heavens) or does 'changed' mean the same kind of difference between a seed and the plant that grows up from it? John 12:24
     
  7. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, daq.

    Hmmm.... Y'know, it's not that we have a problem with your understanding that Yeshua` physically died; what we wonder and have a problem with is if you somehow don't agree that He also physically ROSE AGAIN!

    What do you do with `Iyov's (Job's) claim?


    Job 19:23-27
    23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
    24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
    25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
    26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
    27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
    KJV
     
  8. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    I know He rose again. It is not a matter of 'I believe He rose again'.

    Does that answer your question?


    I would like more information about the verb translated in English into the future tense in v 26. Might it mean 'in my kind of flesh'? Remember, after Job has died, in the same way as Abraham rejoiced to 'see' Christ's day, Job will be able to 'see' Christ in His flesh.

    I suspect that in both cases, 'see' is not necessarily a physical experience, but something to do with discernment, especially since Job was prophesying.



    Apologies Retrobyter. It's bedtime here and I read your comment too quickly, not noticing it was for daq.

    My answer stands, though. :)

    I'll be equally interested in daq's analysis as your answer regarding John 12:24 (when you do).
     
  9. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Hmmm.... Y'know, you do not appear to be quite the Hebrew scholar that you have claimed to be if you do not even understand that "min" essentially means "out from" in many different various applications. The court of "Ye Olde King James" had the same issues in many other critical instances, (as well as many other translators and their various translations) not the least of which would be Daniel 8:11, (for example).

    Job 19:25-26 ASV
    25. But as for me I know that my Redeemer liveth, And at last he will stand up upon the earth:
    26. And after my skin, even this body, is destroyed, Then without my flesh shall I see God;


    Why is it that you get to play the accuser while finding every possible wrench to throw into the conversation and yet most all of your objections have been answered even though YOU have answered to absolutely nothing critical which has been put forth to yourself? When are you going to respond to the following passage which dragonfly just quoted from and alluded to once again?

    2 Corinthians 5:14-17 ASV
    14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;
    15. and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.
    16. Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.
    17. Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new


    2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV
    16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

    What is problem here? You cannot figure out how to carve it up into enough different sections to nullify it? :lol:
     
  10. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi daq,

    Perhaps Retrobyter is slowly building up a collection of questions he cannot answer, and he is having a 'pause for thought'?



    To Retrobyter,

    It is no big thing to believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, since there were many witnesses. As Jesus said:

    John 20:29 '... blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.'



    The real putting-faith-into-action comes with choosing to be grafted into His death, and staying perfectly still like a dead man (naturally speaking) while all kinds of assumptions are made about one's intelligence, one's reputation, one's abilities, one's mental health and one's performance, purely on the basis of one's proclaimed association with the Son of God.

    Hold the faithfulness of God. Friendship with the world is emnity with God. He made Himself of no reputation.

    John 12: 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
    26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
    27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
    28 Father, glorify thy name....'

    (YLT) Luke 9:
    '... And he said unto all, `If any one doth will to come after me, let him disown himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me;
    24 for whoever may will to save his life, shall lose it, and whoever may lose his life for my sake, he shall save it;
     
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, daq.

    Convenient to neglect verse 27 and the OTHER surrounding verses. I know that the KJV has its own set of problems, but you need to understand that that ONE verse is not the crux of the argument that `Iyov makes!


    Job 19:23-27
    23 I wish my words were written down,
    that they were inscribed in a scroll,
    24 that, engraved with iron and filled with lead,
    they were cut into rock forever!

    25 “But I know that my Redeemer lives,
    that in the end he will rise on the dust;
    26 so that after my skin has been thus destroyed,
    then even without my flesh, I will see God.
    27 I will see him for myself,
    my eyes, not someone else’s, will behold him.
    My heart grows weak inside me!
    CJB

    In Hebrew:


    `Iyov 19:23-27
    23 Miy yiteen eefow vyikaatvuwn milaay! Miy yiteen baceefer vyuchaaquw!
    24 B`eeT barzel v`ofaaret laa`ad batsuwr yeechaatsvuwn!
    25 Va'aniy yaada`tiy Go'aliy chaay v'acharown `al `aafaar yaaquwm.
    26 V'achar `owriy niqfuw zo't uwmibsaariy echezeh Elowah.
    27 Asher aniy echezeh liy v`eenay raa'uw vlo' zaar kaaluw kilyotay bcheeqiy!

    23 O That my words were written down;
    Would thy were inscribed in a record,
    24 Incised on a rock forever
    With iron stylus and lead!
    25 But I know that my Vindicator lives;
    In the end He will testify on earth --
    26 This, after my skin will have been peeled off.
    But I would behold God while still in my flesh,
    27 I myself, not another, would behold Him;
    Would see with my own eyes:
    My heart pines (kidneys pine) within me.
    JPS

    23 Miy = 23 Oh-that
    yiteen = were-given
    eefow = here/now
    vyikaatvuwn = and-were-engraved/written
    milaay! = my-words!
    Miy = Oh-that
    yiteen = were-given
    baceefer = in-a-book/scroll
    vyuchaaquw! = and-they-were-chiseled/engraved!
    24 B`eeT = 24 In/With-stylus
    barzel = iron
    v`ofaaret = and-lead
    laa`ad = into-an-age/forever/permanently
    batsuwr = in-rock
    yeechaatsvuwn! = they-were-engraved!
    25 Va'aniy = 25 And-I
    yaada`tiy = I-know
    Go'aliy = my-Redeemer
    chaay = lives
    v'acharown = and-(in)-the-latter/future
    `al = upon
    `aafaar = (the)-dust
    yaaquwm. = He-shall-stand.
    26 V'achar = 26 And-after
    `owriy = my-skin
    niqfuw = is-struck/is-corroded/decays
    zo't = this
    uwmibsaariy = and-from-my-flesh
    echezeh = I-shall-see
    Elowah. = God.
    27 Asher = 27 Whom
    aniy = I
    echezeh = I-shall-see
    liy = for-myself
    v`eenay = and-my-eyes
    raa'uw = shall-behold
    vlo' = and-not
    zaar; = a-foreigner/tourist/stranger;
    kaaluw = be-ended/consumed
    kilyotay = my-organs
    bcheeqiy! = within-me!

    23 Oh-that were-given here/now and-were-engraved/written my-words!
    Oh-that they-were-given in-a-book/scroll and-they-were-chiseled/engraved!
    24 In/With-stylus iron and-lead into-an-age/forever/permanently in-rock they-were-engraved!
    25 And-I, I-know my-Redeemer lives and-(in)-the-latter-time/future upon (the)-dust He-shall-stand.
    26 And-after my-skin is-struck/is-corroded/decays this and-from-my-flesh I-shall-see God.
    27 Whom I, I-shall-see for-myself and-my-eyes shall-behold and-not a-foreigner/tourist/stranger; be-ended/consumed my-organs/kidneys within-me!

    23 Oh that my words were now allowed and engraved!
    Oh, that they were allowed and engraved in a book!
    24 They were engraved permanently in rock with iron stylus and lead!
    25 And I, I know my Redeemer lives and in the future He shall stand upon the dust.
    26 And after this skin of mine decays from my flesh, I shall see God.
    27 Whom I myself, not another, shall see, seeing with my own eyes, even if my kidneys are shriveled within me!


    Now, regarding 2 Corinthians 5:14-17, it's hardly worth the mention because, again, you fail to read the verses of its context.
    It'll have to wait though; I've worn myself out for one night.
     
  12. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Retrobyter it was you that first quoted the passage to prove your misconception: Why then do you accuse me of conveniently leaving out a verse when all I did was correct one of the verses you already quoted? In addition what you have quoted is not Hebrew but transliterated Hebrew. Also it is you that has neglected the context of the entire passage which concerns Job's complaint that his friends are persuing-chasing-persecuting and falsely accusing him. Do you have any clue what is meant by inward friends in this passage? (too bad you never listen to anyone around here except yourself). The same form of the particle "min" or "mib" is employed in Job 19:22 which YOU have left out twice now.

    Job 19:1-26 KJV
    1. Then Job answered and said,
    2. How long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words?
    3. These ten times have ye reproached me: ye are not ashamed that ye make yourselves strange to me.
    4. And be it indeed that I have erred, mine error remaineth with myself.
    5. If indeed ye will magnify yourselves against me, and plead against me my reproach:
    6. Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
    7. Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.
    8. He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.
    9. He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.
    10. He hath destroyed me on every side,
    and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
    11. He hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies.
    12. His troops come together, and raise up their way against me, and encamp round about my tabernacle.
    13. He hath put my brethren far from me, and mine acquaintance are verily estranged from me.
    14. My kinsfolk have failed, and my familiar friends have forgotten me.
    15. They that dwell in mine house, and my maids, count me for a stranger: I am an alien in their sight.
    16. I called my servant, and he gave me no answer; I intreated him with my mouth.
    17. My breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body.
    18. Yea, young children despised me; I arose, and they spake against me.
    19. All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.
    20. My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and I am escaped with the skin of my teeth.
    21. Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
    22. Why do ye
    persecute [HSN#7291 radaph] me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh? ["mibsariy"]
    23. Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
    24. That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
    25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

    26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh ["mibsariy"] shall I see God:

    Original Strong's Ref. #7291
    Romanized radaph
    Pronounced raw-daf'
    a primitive root; to run after (usually with hostile intent; figuratively [of time] gone by):
    KJV--chase, put to flight, follow (after, on), hunt, (be under) persecute(-ion, -or), pursue(-r).


    Anyone can go to the various Bible Tools sites and research the various usages of "mib-basar" or mibsar:

    From biblios.com:
    mib·bə·śar — 5 Occ.
    mib·bə·śā·rām — 4 Occ.
    mib·bə·śar·ḵem — 1 Occ.
    mib·bə·śā·re·ḵā — 1 Occ.
    mib·bə·śā·rî — 1 Occ.
    mib·bə·śā·rōw — 2 Occ.


    The particle is not always translated "out from" but that is the implied underlying understanding because "min" although generally also translated as "from" or "of" also means literally "OUT FROM" or "OUT OF" though it is not always necessary to render the particle in this manner to adequately render the implication of the underlying emphasis. However, just because you do not always see "OUT FROM" in the English text does not mean that it no longer exists in the context. The following are fairly clear examples:

    Genesis 2:23 KJV
    23. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: [mibsariy] she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

    Genesis 2:23 TUA
    23. Wayo'mer ha'adam, Zo't hapa`am `etsem me`tsamayuwbasar mibsariy lzo't yiqare' 'ishah kiy me'iysh luqachah- zo't.

    "mibsar-iy" ~ OUT FROM the flesh of me"

    "And said the man; this the pa`am, [heartbeat-pulse-stroke] is bone FROM my bones and flesh OUT FROM my flesh: she shall be called 'Ishah, for OUT FROM man was taken this!

    Leviticus 15:2 KJV
    2. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, [mibsar-ow] because of his issue he is unclean.

    Leviticus 15:2 TUA
    2. Dabruw 'el- bney Yisra'el ; wa'martem 'lehem: 'Iysh 'iysh kiyyihyeh zab mibsarow zowbow Tame' huw'.

    "mibsar-ow" ~ "OUT FROM the flesh of him"

    Ecclesiastes 11:10 KJV
    10. Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.

    Ecclesiastes 11:10 TUA
    10. Whacer ka`ac milibeka. Wha`aber ra`ah mibsareka. Kiy- hayalduwt whashacharuwt habel!

    "milib-eka" ~ "OUT FROM the heart of you"
    "mibsar-eka" ~ OUT FROM the flesh of you"

    Ezekiel 11:19 KJV
    19. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, [mibsaram] and will give them an heart of flesh:

    Ezekiel 11:19 TUA
    19. Wnatatiy lahem leb'echad wruwach chadashah 'eten bqirbkem wahacirotiy lebha'eben mibsaram wnatatiy lahem leb basar.

    "mibsar-am" ~ "OUT FROM the flesh of them"

    Ezekiel 36:26 KJV
    26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    Ezekiel 36:26 TUA
    26. Wnatatiy lakem lebchadash wruwach chadashah 'eten bqirbkem wahacirotiy 'et-leb ha'eben mibsarkem wnatatiy lakem leb basar.

    "mibsar-kem" ~ "OUT FROM the flesh of you"

    You are not allowing for the poetry of the passage because you only seek to force it into your preconceived mindset. The author is using poetry to make his points through the words of Job who says to his friends: "Why do you PURSUE me as 'El? even [so much as to go] OUT FROM my flesh [mibsar-iy] and not you are satisfied?" It is a poetic way of opining how so much so they are pursuing-chasing-hunting him down to the point of driving him out from his flesh-body or into the grave, (the soul is not the body in the Hebrew mindset).

    Job 19:22-26 TUA
    22. Lamah tirdpuniy kmow- 'El? Uwmibsariy lo' tisba`uw?
    23. Miy- yiten 'epow wyikatbuwn milay! Miy- yitenbaceper wyuchaquw!
    24. B`eT- barzel w`oparet, la`adbatsuwr yechatsbuwn!
    25. Wa'niy yada`tiy go'liy chay. W'achrown `al- `aparyaquwm.

    26. W'achar `owriy niqpuw- zo't, uw
    mibsariy 'echezeh'Elowah.

    Because of your unwillingness to learn anything from anyone else you have now sidetracked this thread by making false statements about a Book that may indeed be Torah written by Moshe himself. I suggest you stop restructuring the Scripture to suit your fanciful paradigm. :)
     
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