Christian Discipleship

[H. Richard]

I have not said we are to be law keepers, as mj pointed out, and this is a non-answer. If you just want to argue with points like, "My Bible says you are wrong" then there is no point continuing this. If you have a point to make, make it. If you just want to accuse me of being a legalist who doesnt believe the Bible, then I guess you are welcome to your opinion and I feel no need to defend myself to you.


Well, considering the entire Bible was written by Jews (except Luke and Acts), then I suppose that none of the NT applies to us?

Yes you have.

The first 4 books of the N.T. are written for the Jews to explain that Jesus was the Jews Messiah and King. It was written for those under the law of Moses. The message of who Jesus was. This is obvious when we read about Stephens death. The first 7 Chapters of the book of Acts were about the message that Jesus was the Jew's Messiah and King

Then Jesus called out Paul to give the message of grace based on the shed blood on the cross.

God had a new plan of salvation base on the shed blood on the cross. The true purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9)

 

[Wormwood]

Yes you have.

No, and a neutral reader also said as much.

The first 4 books of the N.T. are written for the Jews to explain that Jesus was the Jews Messiah and King.

I think you need to do some more study. Luke was a Gentile writing to "theophilus" which is a Greek name for "lover of God." Could have been a Greek person or a term that was generic for people who love God. John has an evangelistic focus and is directed toward Greek speaking audiences that he assumes many of which are unfamiliar with Jewish phrases and practices, as the following verses show clearly.

“He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John. You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter).” (John 1:41–42, ESV)

“The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)” (John 4:9, ESV)

“Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher).” (John 20:16, ESV)

Why would John explain what "Messiah" means or "Rabboni" if he is writing to a bunch of Jews? Why would he have to explain that Jews have no dealings with Samaritans? Richard, I dont know where you get your information, or if you just come up with this yourself, but it is far far far from orthodox and void of a fairly basic understanding of the Biblical text itself.

God had a new plan of salvation base on the shed blood on the cross. The true purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9)

God's plan of salvation was prepared for "all people" before the foundation of the world...both Jews and Greeks. Paul's "mystery" that he was sent to proclaim was not a different Gospel than Peter or James. The mystery Paul proclaimed was the same Gospel Peter preached but with a focus on reaching the Gentiles and the emphasis on how the cross abolished the dividing wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile (which you seem to want to reestablish by your emphasis on God showing distinctions and favoritism based on a person's genealogy).

“I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.” (Galatians 2:2, ESV)

“And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.” (Galatians 2:6–10, ESV)

Please read carefully the above verses. This shows, beyond a shadow of doubt, that that 1. God shows no partiality (even with the Apostles), 2. they both preached the same Gospel but had different audiences, 3. Peter and James' message was not contrary to Paul's. Rather, they gave Paul "the right hand of fellowship."

The passages here in Galatians make it very clear that Paul received his message from God, but he still went to the other Apostles to confirm that he was preaching the same Gospel and that he wasn't "running in vain." After speaking to these influential men (and Paul makes it clear that his message was not changed by their influence because Paul wasnt concerned about pleasing men, but only God) it was confirmed that they were preaching the same Gospel and that Paul should focus his message on the Gentiles and Peter, James and John would focus on reaching the Jews. There is NOTHING here about two gospels, two plans of salvation or anything close to the idea that James and Paul were at odds in their messages. Nope, same Gospel, different audiences. I dont think these passages could be any more plain.

 

[H. Richard]

No, and a neutral reader also said as much.


I think you need to do some more study. Luke was a Gentile writing to "theophilus" which is a Greek name for "lover of God." Could have been a Greek person or a term that was generic for people who love God. John has an evangelistic focus and is directed toward Greek speaking audiences that he assumes many of which are unfamiliar with Jewish phrases and practices, as the following verses show clearly.

“He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John. You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter).” (John 1:41–42, ESV)

“The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)” (John 4:9, ESV)

“Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher).” (John 20:16, ESV)

Why would John explain what "Messiah" means or "Rabboni" if he is writing to a bunch of Jews? Why would he have to explain that Jews have no dealings with Samaritans? Richard, I dont know where you get your information, or if you just come up with this yourself, but it is far far far from orthodox and void of a fairly basic understanding of the Biblical text itself.


God's plan of salvation was prepared for "all people" before the foundation of the world...both Jews and Greeks. Paul's "mystery" that he was sent to proclaim was not a different Gospel than Peter or James. The mystery Paul proclaimed was the same Gospel Peter preached but with a focus on reaching the Gentiles and the emphasis on how the cross abolished the dividing wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile (which you seem to want to reestablish by your emphasis on God showing distinctions and favoritism based on a person's genealogy).

Please read carefully the above verses. This shows, beyond a shadow of doubt, that that 1. God shows no partiality (even with the Apostles), 2. they both preached the same Gospel but had different audiences, 3. Peter and James' message was not contrary to Paul's. Rather, they gave Paul "the right hand of fellowship."

The passages here in Galatians make it very clear that Paul received his message from God, but he still went to the other Apostles to confirm that he was preaching the same Gospel and that he wasn't "running in vain." After speaking to these influential men (and Paul makes it clear that his message was not changed by their influence because Paul wasnt concerned about pleasing men, but only God) it was confirmed that they were preaching the same Gospel and that Paul should focus his message on the Gentiles and Peter, James and John would focus on reaching the Jews. There is NOTHING here about two gospels, two plans of salvation or anything close to the idea that James and Paul were at odds in their messages. Nope, same Gospel, different audiences. I dont think these passages could be any more plain.

You said "I think you need to do some more study". I suppose I can say the same to you but I see no point in it. All it does is make it impossible carry 0n a conversation.

I have had my say and you have had yours but it isn't getting anything resolved between us. Therefore I will not spend anymore of my time in useless replies. Yes the grace gospel was "hidden in God" from the foundations of the world but that does not mean it was told to mankind before it was given to Paul. The mystery that was given to Paul included the children of God being called out (raptured). But I bet you can rationalize that away too.

 

[Wormwood]

Richard,

Although we disagree, I thank you for the conversation. I would simply conclude by pasting a few texts where Paul explains clearly the "mystery" that he proclaimed. As I see it, it has nothing to do with a separate or distinct Gospel, but how the Gospel unifies the Gentiles and Jews. Since the other Apostles focused on the Jews, this element of the Gospel was more of a focus for Paul, but as he says in his own words (see below), the other Apostles preached this mystery as well. Finally, I would just encourage you to think deeply about the consequences of your doctrine that suggests Paul was at odds in his message with the other Apostles and that the book of James is not from God. It is a very dangerous view that undermines the Scriptures Christians have passed down by pain of their own deaths for thousands of years and places the final authority with the reader as to what they will accept as inspired rather than placing the authority with the Bible where it belongs. I believe it is quite easy to reconcile the teachings of James, John and Paul....and Christians have had no problem with this for thousands of years.

“In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.” (Ephesians 1:7–10, ESV)

“When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles (notice the plural here....Paul was not the only one revealing this mystery..the other Apostles and prophets did as well!) and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” (Notice the content of this mystery. Not a different Gospel for the Gentiles, but that the Gentiles are fellow heirs with the believing Jews and part of the SAME body and promise) (Ephesians 3:4–6, ESV)

 

[H. Richard]

Richard,

Although we disagree, I thank you for the conversation. I would simply conclude by pasting a few texts where Paul explains clearly the "mystery" that he proclaimed. As I see it, it has nothing to do with a separate or distinct Gospel, but how the Gospel unifies the Gentiles and Jews. Since the other Apostles focused on the Jews, this element of the Gospel was more of a focus for Paul, but as he says in his own words (see below), the other Apostles preached this mystery as well. Finally, I would just encourage you to think deeply about the consequences of your doctrine that suggests Paul was at odds in his message with the other Apostles and that the book of James is not from God. It is a very dangerous view that undermines the Scriptures Christians have passed down by pain of their own deaths for thousands of years and places the final authority with the reader as to what they will accept as inspired rather than placing the authority with the Bible where it belongs. I believe it is quite easy to reconcile the teachings of James, John and Paul....and Christians have had no problem with this for thousands of years.

“In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.” (Ephesians 1:7–10, ESV)

“When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles (notice the plural here....Paul was not the only one revealing this mystery..the other Apostles and prophets did as well!) and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” (Notice the content of this mystery. Not a different Gospel for the Gentiles, but that the Gentiles are fellow heirs with the believing Jews and part of the SAME body and promise) (Ephesians 3:4–6, ESV)

I see what you are saying but it is not what I see.

Eph 3:4-10
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

You assume that "His holy apostles and profits are the 12. But that is just an assumption. There were many people that Paul taught who became Apostles. One of which was Barnabas.

Acts 14:14
14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out
NKJV

6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
Purpose of the Mystery

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that ""NOW"" the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
NKJV

When you read the book of Acts you surely see that the 12 had a hard time understanding that the law had been replaced by Grace and that the Gentiles were included on the basis of grace (faith) alone.

Peter certainly didn't know it until God showed him a vision.

According to the dictionary an apostle is one that has been sent out as a missionary or leader. There are apostles today

 

[Wormwood]

Paul and Peter did not have opposing messages. Peter affirmed Paul's message and vice-a-versa...

“And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” (2 Peter 3:15–16, ESV)


Thanks for the discussion.

 

[H. Richard]

Paul and Peter did not have opposing messages. Peter affirmed Paul's message and vice-a-versa...

“And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” (2 Peter 3:15–16, ESV)


Thanks for the discussion.

No. Their message was not the same.

What I see Peter saying is that what Paul wrote is scripture just as much as the other Scriptures..

It was hard for Peter to understand is that Jesus would save people just by their faith and not by works of the Law of Moses. He could not see God saving people for their faith in what Jesus did on the cross without keeping the Law of Moses.