Christians And Us Politics

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100% agree with this. Good post Simpleman sir.

Voting changes nothing.

It depends on where you vote and who or what you are voting on.
Local elections, believe it or not, are very important. Much good can be done in the community.
State elections are probably the most important for they form the backbone of our national system.

You have heard it said that the FAMILY is the basic building block of society. As the family goes, so goes the community and state.

Federal government goes by itself, not restrained by any person any group or any organization.

Contrary to local and State elections, Federal elections mean little because;
1. The Federal government has become a political monopoly. (Folks admit that corporate monopolies are bad. Why do they think the Federal monopoly is ok?)
2. The amount of resources needed to effect Federal change or prevent Federal change is beyond the ability of individuals (even rich ones) to effect.
3. Federal representatives of all branches no longer heed the will of the people, only special interest groups and internal design.

Again, it depends upon where you vote and who or what you're voting on.
Most people don't vote at all. Very few vote on local or State issues/persons.

When was the last time a Christian ran for a school board seat and was backed by Christians as a group?

Some Christians say we ought not be political, but militant atheists, gays, muslims, illegal aliens and every other group of people have banded together to affect government.

Those who claim to be Christian and allow demonic forces to rule the land are guilty of supporting their agenda by default.

a world that belongs to the devil. He told Christians to pray for the kingdom of God, that’s not going to manifest itself the some worldly government now is it!

Where does it say that this world belongs to the devil?
Satan is the prince of the world, the ruler of it, the god of this world, he who rules by legal right (a right which it acquired by deceit).

Our Lord is said to have been victorious in His battle against the powers and principalities of this world. If Satan ownes the place, then all that talk about victory is a lie and Jesus died for nothing.

On the other hand, if Jesus' death DID result in victory, then Christians ought to be about the business of working with the Lord to reclaim, restore and renew all that which has been lost to the enemies' work. If we are members of the victorious host of God, then we have a duty to work.

Then again, there are those who believe that Christ is not victorious, that He has not overcome the world and that we ought to hide our light under a bushel. They have their reward I suppose.

 

[Strangelove]

It depends on where you vote and who or what you are voting on.
Local elections, believe it or not, are very important. Much good can be done in the community.

Agree. I wish we could go back to the days where it was just a table of elders guiding the community through the Word of God with no-one else to answer to.

Federal government goes by itself, not restrained by any person any group or any organization.

Contrary to local and State elections, Federal elections mean little because;
1. The Federal government has become a political monopoly. (Folks admit that corporate monopolies are bad. Why do they think the Federal monopoly is ok?)
2. The amount of resources needed to effect Federal change or prevent Federal change is beyond the ability of individuals (even rich ones) to effect.
3. Federal representatives of all branches no longer heed the will of the people, only special interest groups and internal design.

Agreed. I'm glad theres some switched on people at these forums.

When was the last time a Christian ran for a school board seat and was backed by Christians as a group?

Some Christians say we ought not be political, but militant atheists, gays, muslims, illegal aliens and every other group of people have banded together to affect government.

Those who claim to be Christian and allow demonic forces to rule the land are guilty of supporting their agenda by default.

A Christian Party eh? It's a good idea. I'm assuming you mean just at local or state level?>>

 

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A Christian Party eh? It's a good idea. I'm assuming you mean just at local or state level?>>

My intent wasn't to suggest the formation of a Christian party, but the idea is a sound one nonetheless.
Pat Robertson's group began the basic work back when he ran for President. That didn't go very far because there needs to be broad based support to elect a candidate for the House, Senate or President.

American Christians tend to throw their support one way and another.
There is no apparent long term allegiance to any party.
In the sixties and seventies many Christians supported the Liberal left and its anti-war, anti-establishment platform. Decades later, Christians supported conservative issues.
Those who affix labels to Christians often become confused when the votes are tallied.

I believe more than ever that State and local elections are important. I also believe that State governments ought to throw their weight around more often with regard to real opposition to Federal extremes in spending, legislation, and especially court rulings. The intent of the Constitution was that the Supreme Court should act as a brake on congressional and presidential excess beyond the mandate of the constitution. However, beginning in the twentieth century that Court seldom ruled against congressional or presidential usurpation.

The answer?
Legal nullification of Federal laws. (Google NULLIFICATION)
State oversight committees on Federal actions.
Federal taxes should be collected by the states and then forwarded to the Federal government after a review of its compliance to the Constitution.
Greater awareness of American History and Constitutional law.

The US Constitution is meant to put chains on the government, not the people.

The Federal government will not restrain itself. That much is certain.
What body should block its unbridled excess? The Constitution provides for the States to do just that (10th amendment). It also provides for allowing States to call a constitutional convention to enact or repeal Federal issues. All these options are legal and within the mandate of States to act.

Only large powerful legal entities (the States) can make real changes in Federal usurpation of its mandate under the constitution. Thomas Jefferson advocated a de-centralized Federal government, not the political monopoly we have today.
-------------------------------------
"To consider the judges of the Supreme Court as the ultimate arbiters of Constitutional questions would be a dangerous doctrine which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. They have with others, the same passion for party, for power, and for the priviledges of their corps - and their power is the more dangerous as they are in office for life, and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has elected no single Tribunal. I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of society but the people themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Unfortunately what we have today is a strong central Federal government which claims that states have no rights at all.

"..totally eliminate states' rights altogether: since for us the state as such is only a form, but the essential is its content, the nation, the people, it is clear that everything else must be subordinated to its sovereign interests. In particular we cannot grant to any individual state within the nation and the state representing it state sovereignty and sovereignty in point of political power."
Adolph Hitler
MEIN KAMPF

 

[Decka]

Christians in U.S. Politics?

1. I feel Christians need to realize that religion is so much larger than government, and to worry about U.S. politics is not only intrusive but degrades the religion.

2. I think Christianity in America overall is warped by delusions of self-righteousness, pride, and materialism.

3. I think Barak Obama is FAR from being a "socialist". Last I heard, nobody is being told what field they will serve their country in. And what is socialism's big crime anyways... helping people? Sounds like a pretty Christian ideal to me.

4. Christians need to stay the heck out of the vengeful, vindictive, merciless political Jihad that is Republican vs. Democrat. Republicans claim to be the party of religion, but yet they seem to always value THEIR liberty, THEIR right to be greedy, and THEIR right to not give a damn about others. As a Christian, under God, we have no rights. We aren't owed anything. We can only pray for God's mercy.

 

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Christians in U.S. Politics?

1. I feel Christians need to realize that religion is so much larger than government, and to worry about U.S. politics is not only intrusive but degrades the religion.

Religion is not simply larger than government. It is the foundation of government. It is the duty of religious people to restrain the government. When restraint is removed from government, it ALWAYS acts wickedly. Government is like a crazed wild animal and must always be restricted. The purpose of the Constitution is to put chains on the government, not the people.

2. I think Christianity in America overall is warped by delusions of self-righteousness, pride, and materialism.

On TV, yes. On skewed journalistic articles and surveys, yes.
On the surface, NO. In truth, NO.

The number of organizations both national and local which ARE BEING operated by Christians and Jews is legion. You just don't see it in the papers. Christians and Jews are quietly, diligently ministering to their neighbors. They just don't get medals and awards for it.

You accuse out of ignorance and spite. You need to get out more.
I serve public notice here on these pages that if you cannot find one single Christian or Jewish organization in your area that doesn't help the community I will give you one hundred dollars. On the other hand if you find such a place you will donate one hundred dollars to their work.

Put your money where your mouth is. Put up or shut up.

3. I think Barak Obama is FAR from being a "socialist". Last I heard, nobody is being told what field they will serve their country in. And what is socialism's big crime anyways... helping people? Sounds like a pretty Christian ideal to me.

Obama IS a socialist. His father was an anti-colonial socialist (arrested by the British for his work in Kenya) and his mother was a communist sympathizer. If you'd listened to his rhetoric more you'd see that. Instead of arguing your opinion you should educate yourself more. I can provide numerous background links and quotations upon request, however I urge you to do your own homework instead. Here are a few, check them out;

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/24233
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/us/politics/08callback.html

Socialism IS NOT simply doing good for the people. Government never does that well, especially a socialist one. Governments are prone to corruption. Socialist governments generally bankrupt their economy, subvert the liberty of the people they are sworn to protect, and fail in the end.

And in case you weren't aware of it or didn't realize the parallels to the things I've just written WE ARE ALREADY NECK DEEP in a socialist government. Are things better now, or worse? Come on, be honest.

4. Christians need to stay the heck out of the vengeful, vindictive, merciless political Jihad that is Republican vs. Democrat. Republicans claim to be the party of religion, but yet they seem to always value THEIR liberty, THEIR right to be greedy, and THEIR right to not give a damn about others. As a Christian, under God, we have no rights. We aren't owed anything. We can only pray for God's mercy.

First of all, I am compelled to say that you appear to be one who hates liberty. IT IS THE RIGHT and the duty of Christians as well as all other citizens of the United States to participate in the political system. Whether they do or not is their individual choice. Certainly not yours.

You completely fail to understand the political system when you imply that Republicans and Democrats are on opposite sides. They may appear to be, but only in the sense of inscriptions on opposite sides of the same coin. It is now quite apparent to most citizens that the political agenda of the R's and the D's is practically identical. They are two heads of the same snake. That snake is set to devour our resources, our liberties and our future.

You really really need to do more reading.

I object most strenuously to your statement that "as a Christian, under God, we have no {political} rights."

In point of fact the truth is quite the opposite.

All human rights are given by God. Not the government.

For your reading pleasure I invite you to view a copy of the Declaration of Independence.
It isn't long and doesn't take a rocket scientist or doctorate in political science to understand.
It is an amazing document. I sincerely invite everyone to review it. Here is a link;

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html

That document affirms that human rights come from God.
Government is human and flawed. God is perfect.
Rights and liberty NEVER come from a government, they come from our Holy God.

Government is to be granted limited authority by the governed, not the other way around as it is today.
The government DOES OWE US. It owes us the liberty which is ours by divine right, the right to live as we choose, and the right to practice our faith in peace - including the right of evangelization.

A socialist government denies all these things - as we see happening and evolving before our very eyes in America today.

Your anger will best serve you if its pointed in the right direction.
Your enemy is not the church.
It is the debauched, corrupt and insidious government of the United States.

Don't take my word for it. Go out and educate yourself. Look around while you still have the freedom to do so.

 

[Decka]

I appreciate the time you took to reply, rjp, but we seem to have quite opposing views here, and you seem to not respect mine at all. Your drive-by insinuations on my character in order to better serve your argument aren't really appreciated. You I could go on, but I'll address your points.

Religion is not simply larger than government. It is the foundation of government.

Not entirely true. Christians can serve in government, but I don't think you should have the inclination to impress your religious beliefs onto all. I would never want to force someone to follow Christian morality. I'd want them to come to it by choice.

It is the duty of religious people to restrain the government.

Yes, because the private sector has shown that it can be completely trustworthy

People need regulation... like a religion for instance?

When restraint is removed from government, it ALWAYS acts wickedly.

The exact same could be said about letting human behavior run wild without regulation.

Government is like a crazed wild animal and must always be restricted. The purpose of the Constitution is to put chains on the government, not the people.

Its purpose is to find a healthy balance between the two. You benefit greatly from government in many areas.. can you swallow your pride enough to admit it?

On TV, yes. On skewed journalistic articles and surveys, yes.
On the surface, NO. In truth, NO.

The number of organizations both national and local which ARE BEING operated by Christians and Jews is legion. You just don't see it in the papers. Christians and Jews are quietly, diligently ministering to their neighbors. They just don't get medals and awards for it.

I absolutely agree with that Christian organizations do wonders here in the states. It's unfortunate that the "warped" characteristic I brought up is pushed to the forefront.

However, it's not hard to see how American pride, egoism, elitism, greed, and materialism can corrupt a set of Christian values.

You accuse out of ignorance and spite. You need to get out more.

Thanks Dr. Phil... and I'm sure you "accuse" out of love and compassion...

Obama IS a socialist.

It depends on what your meaning of the word "socialist" is. Does he want to add social programs to America? Yes. Is he tearing down checks and balances and installing himself as monarch? No.

By one definition, I'm a socialist myself... as I want to implement government in some areas while get rid of it in others.

Instead of arguing your opinion you should educate yourself more. I can provide numerous background links and quotations upon request, however I urge you to do your own homework instead. Here are a few, check them out;

http://www.canadafre...p/article/24233

.. you cite an obviously completely biased source with an agenda and you lecture ME on "doing homework"? How about everyone who has a problem with our government quit blaming one president and identify the entire faction as the source. THAT, to me, would be the correct statement. Obama is a puppet. He follows orders from the superelite, corporate interests, the Democratic party, and special interest groups. However, the same can be said about Bush, Clinton, Bush, Carter, Nixon.. whomever.

Socialism IS NOT simply doing good for the people. Government never does that well, especially a socialist one.

So the police they provide for your protection is just a terrible injustice... as are the roads the government provides for you to drive your car on. How about the water that the government cleanses for you to drink?

Oh, and does simplifying things into inflexible, absolute principles which are guaranteed to be proven wrong give you some sort of adrenaline rush?

Governments are prone to corruption.

Equally so are people.

Socialist governments generally bankrupt their economy, subvert the liberty of the people they are sworn to protect, and fail in the end.

Entire socialist governments yes... but installing socialist programs into capitalism doesn't suddenly turn black into white, night into day... unless you are incapable of seeing proportion.

And in case you weren't aware of it or didn't realize the parallels to the things I've just written WE ARE ALREADY NECK DEEP in a socialist government.

We are? how so? you can vote, you can go where you want, you can reasonably say what you want, there aren't any cameras or military guards at your door, people can decide what field they want to work in and what they want to do in their lives... sounds pretty good to me.

Are things better now, or worse? Come on, be honest.

Depends on what you're talking about. To be honest, you're all over the road with your points, but if you are talking about rights, none of mine have been stripped. Economy? Obama is taking the already ludicrously abused notion of government spending and increasing it to an incredible degree. Economically we are in bad bad shape, but the reason for that is up for debate.

I would assume that as a Christian the need to help others would outweigh the rights of the greedy to hoard money. Have you ever heard of that "Jesus" guy?

First of all, I am compelled to say that you appear to be one who hates liberty.

And what makes you so compelled to say that? Because I don't share your hatred of Barak Obama and government?

IT IS THE RIGHT and the duty of Christians as well as all other citizens of the United States to participate in the political system.

The right? Yes. The Duty? I guess I missed that commandment, and that whole "Give to Caeser what is Caeser's" line... but that's by that Jesus guy who you might not know about.

Whether they do or not is their individual choice. Certainly not yours.

Nor is it your right to apply false principles to my religion in a berating, disrespectful, and insulting manner.

You completely fail to understand the political system when you imply that Republicans and Democrats are on opposite sides. They may appear to be, but only in the sense of inscriptions on opposite sides of the same coin. It is now quite apparent to most citizens that the political agenda of the R's and the D's is practically identical. They are two heads of the same snake. That snake is set to devour our resources, our liberties and our future.

You completely fail at representing me. I am completely anti-2 party system. However, you didn't take the time to find out.. it wouldn't make for a nice juicy attack in true Glen Beck or Sean Hannity style, and it would take actual effort, time, patience, and respect... things you don't seem to have in your arguments.

I object most strenuously to your statement that "as a Christian, under God, we have no {political} rights."

You added the word that you disagree with.. I didn't mean political. Yet another assumption by you about me that is wrong.

You attack me, make assumptions of me, insult me, exalt yourself... If you don't mind me asking, What are you doing on a Christian message forum?

 

[bud02]

Decka
I have a very agreeable vision of the social political climate you outlined in your 4 talking points.
You handled yourself very well.

rjp in closed his reply with you said Your enemy is not the church.

The church that responds and supports such things is perhaps not an enemy but they are not a familiar spirit ether.
I was hoping that some of these right wing Christians would wake up after electing Bush in 2000.
The promise of changing abortion and gay marriage were the key verses that elected him by a narrow margin. After 8 years in office nothing changed.

I then began to realize that threw out the Rep belt is where you find nearly all of the name it and claim it pasters, or the plant a seed of $100.00 and God will make you rich preachers.
A vote for Rep is a vote for Jesus is an easy sell for this kind. This is not directed at anyone here, its simply my thoughts. Just remember what the Lord said when Israel wanted a king.

One more thing that I bring to some peoples attention is that we used to have an original 13th amendment..
Just google, original 13th amendment. And you will understand the two headed snake that rjp spoke of shares the same body, the power of wealth to influence our government.

The result of the civil war lead to the 13th as we know it today.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

The 13 before this would have prohibited lobbyist believe it or not. What happened? Did politicians trade the freedom of men, for the right to influence politicians? Its pretty much out of control today. Money provided by those that expect favorable legislation is what gets you in office today.

The original 13th Amendment to our Constitution has been illegally removed from publication. One intent of the Amendment was to prohibit the attorneys of powerful European bankers from holding office in America. During the confusion of the War of 1812,when our capital records building was burned, and the Civil War, the bankers and lawyers removed the 13th Amendment, replacing it with the Slave Amendment, which should be the 14th.

The missing 13th Amendment, called Article XIII, reads: [size="+1"]"If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive, or retain, any title of nobility or honor, or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince, or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them."[/size]

Like I said these are just thoughts. Don't get me started on the Federal Reserve. We have been under attack much more devastating than the twin towers for a long time.

 

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I appreciate the time you took to reply, rjp, but we seem to have quite opposing views here, and you seem to not respect mine at all. Your drive-by insinuations on my character in order to better serve your argument aren't really appreciated. You I could go on, but I'll address your points.



Not entirely true. Christians can serve in government, but I don't think you should have the inclination to impress your religious beliefs onto all. I would never want to force someone to follow Christian morality. I'd want them to come to it by choice.



Yes, because the private sector has shown that it can be completely trustworthy

People need regulation... like a religion for instance?



The exact same could be said about letting human behavior run wild without regulation.



Its purpose is to find a healthy balance between the two. You benefit greatly from government in many areas.. can you swallow your pride enough to admit it?



I absolutely agree with that Christian organizations do wonders here in the states. It's unfortunate that the "warped" characteristic I brought up is pushed to the forefront.

However, it's not hard to see how American pride, egoism, elitism, greed, and materialism can corrupt a set of Christian values.



Thanks Dr. Phil... and I'm sure you "accuse" out of love and compassion...



It depends on what your meaning of the word "socialist" is. Does he want to add social programs to America? Yes. Is he tearing down checks and balances and installing himself as monarch? No.

By one definition, I'm a socialist myself... as I want to implement government in some areas while get rid of it in others.



.. you cite an obviously completely biased source with an agenda and you lecture ME on "doing homework"? How about everyone who has a problem with our government quit blaming one president and identify the entire faction as the source. THAT, to me, would be the correct statement. Obama is a puppet. He follows orders from the superelite, corporate interests, the Democratic party, and special interest groups. However, the same can be said about Bush, Clinton, Bush, Carter, Nixon.. whomever.




So the police they provide for your protection is just a terrible injustice... as are the roads the government provides for you to drive your car on. How about the water that the government cleanses for you to drink?

Oh, and does simplifying things into inflexible, absolute principles which are guaranteed to be proven wrong give you some sort of adrenaline rush?



Equally so are people.



Entire socialist governments yes... but installing socialist programs into capitalism doesn't suddenly turn black into white, night into day... unless you are incapable of seeing proportion.



We are? how so? you can vote, you can go where you want, you can reasonably say what you want, there aren't any cameras or military guards at your door, people can decide what field they want to work in and what they want to do in their lives... sounds pretty good to me.



Depends on what you're talking about. To be honest, you're all over the road with your points, but if you are talking about rights, none of mine have been stripped. Economy? Obama is taking the already ludicrously abused notion of government spending and increasing it to an incredible degree. Economically we are in bad bad shape, but the reason for that is up for debate.

I would assume that as a Christian the need to help others would outweigh the rights of the greedy to hoard money. Have you ever heard of that "Jesus" guy?



And what makes you so compelled to say that? Because I don't share your hatred of Barak Obama and government?



The right? Yes. The Duty? I guess I missed that commandment, and that whole "Give to Caeser what is Caeser's" line... but that's by that Jesus guy who you might not know about.



Nor is it your right to apply false principles to my religion in a berating, disrespectful, and insulting manner.



You completely fail at representing me. I am completely anti-2 party system. However, you didn't take the time to find out.. it wouldn't make for a nice juicy attack in true Glen Beck or Sean Hannity style, and it would take actual effort, time, patience, and respect... things you don't seem to have in your arguments.



You added the word that you disagree with.. I didn't mean political. Yet another assumption by you about me that is wrong.

You attack me, make assumptions of me, insult me, exalt yourself... If you don't mind me asking, What are you doing on a Christian message forum?

Political rights vs. religious rights?
Since the section this discussion is organized under is titled "Political Christian Forum" and the current topic is "Christians and US Politics" I made the assumption that the default "rights" that were written about were political not religious. I could be wrong, though.

I admit to overreaction on some points, but do not apologize for any of it.
I have observed that those who would deny the rights of Christians to participate in the US political system often use a smoke screen of scripture, tradition, speculation and misrepresentation to justify their position. In point of fact, Christians have the right and the duty under US law, religious tradition, and moral obligation to do so.

Some Christians firmly believe that they should participate and some firmly believe that they should not. It is the right of both to do so according to their conscience and understanding. It is NOT the right of anyone to deny us the choice, and it is that insinuation to which I most strenuously object.

Regarding socialism, I again suggest that you do your homework.
1. Strictly speaking the definition of socialism is state ownership and/or operation of industry and/or capital.
2. The common definition of socialism accepted in America includes individual entitlement in addition to #1. Such entitlements include; Social Security, unemployment benefits, welfare including food stamps public housing etc., education and healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid, etc).

Socialist programs do NOT include the maintenance of public infrastructure such as roads, bridges, water and sewer, parks, etc. In addition socialist programs do not include taxation, national defense, the space program, interstate and international trade regulation, international treaties, etc.

Generally speaking the debates concerning encroaching socialism in America also include but are not limited to increased governmental ursurpation of areas beyond its mandate generally defned as the rights of citizens and the separate sovereign states.

For example, regulation of the interstate road system is NOT socialism while manipulation of individual healthcare is.
Although the Federal government does not yet hold the title deed on any industry that I'm aware of, it does restrict and regulate and tax beyond all common sense and wisdom. The Federal restriction against the manufacture of incandescent light bulbs is a good example, Under the misguided logic of environmental friendliness the importation of CF bulbs is encouraged. The CF bulbs contain mercury which is toxic to the environment. This is NOT an improvement over incandescent bulbs. Their importation is a governmental rule which benefits international corporations and special interest groups, not American workers and certainly not the environment.

You said you hadn't lost any liberty?
A good example of the encroachment of the Federal government upon individual rights in recent years is the issue of church vs. Federal restriction.

It is beyond the legal constitutional mandate of the government to make ANY regulation or ANY restriction of religion.

Period.

When the Supreme Court or any governmental body makes ANY ruling with regard to the practice of religion it is violating its mandate under the constitution. This is a violation of human rights under God and is TYRANNY.

The purpose of the US Constitution is to put restrictions on the Federal government NOT the citizens.

Therefore the separation of church and state means that the Federal government is breaking the highest law in the land when it makes ANY statement, law or interpretation with regard to the peaceful practice of religion.

Unfortunately, that is not the case today. The government is indeed making all sorts of restrictions, rules, etc. Those who would deny the freedom of others to practice their religion simply because they disagree with it are rebelling against God who gave these rights. It is a sin and an offense against God to do so.

All American citizens, as well as individual sovereign states, have political rights which are being eroded by the Federal government on a daily basis. Under the disguise of a socialist nanny state we are being stripped of our God given rights.

In any other time and in any other place it would be called tyranny.

 

[[email protected]]

Decka
I have a very agreeable vision of the social political climate you outlined in your 4 talking points.
You handled yourself very well.

rjp in closed his reply with you said Your enemy is not the church.

The church that responds and supports such things is perhaps not an enemy but they are not a familiar spirit ether.
I was hoping that some of these right wing Christians would wake up after electing Bush in 2000.
The promise of changing abortion and gay marriage were the key verses that elected him by a narrow margin. After 8 years in office nothing changed.

I then began to realize that threw out the Rep belt is where you find nearly all of the name it and claim it pasters, or the plant a seed of $100.00 and God will make you rich preachers.
A vote for Rep is a vote for Jesus is an easy sell for this kind. This is not directed at anyone here, its simply my thoughts. Just remember what the Lord said when Israel wanted a king.

One more thing that I bring to some peoples attention is that we used to have an original 13th amendment..
Just google, original 13th amendment. And you will understand the two headed snake that rjp spoke of shares the same body, the power of wealth to influence our government.

The result of the civil war lead to the 13th as we know it today.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

The 13 before this would have prohibited lobbyist believe it or not. What happened? Did politicians trade the freedom of men, for the right to influence politicians? Its pretty much out of control today. Money provided by those that expect favorable legislation is what gets you in office today.

The original 13th Amendment to our Constitution has been illegally removed from publication. One intent of the Amendment was to prohibit the attorneys of powerful European bankers from holding office in America. During the confusion of the War of 1812,when our capital records building was burned, and the Civil War, the bankers and lawyers removed the 13th Amendment, replacing it with the Slave Amendment, which should be the 14th.

The missing 13th Amendment, called Article XIII, reads: [size="+1"]"If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive, or retain, any title of nobility or honor, or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince, or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them."[/size]

Like I said these are just thoughts. Don't get me started on the Federal Reserve. We have been under attack much more devastating than the twin towers for a long time.

You equate Bible belt Christians with the policies of the Republican party and for the most part I agree with you.
For far too long people have voted along party lines and not according to the track record of an individual representative or party policy.

A good example is the current restriction against third party participation in this country. Although third parties are not disallowed by law, they are prevented from open debate in the media; TV, newspapers, magazines, etc.

For example, I am a registered Libertarian. My party believes in small government and a small military among other things. None of our candidates are allowed equal press coverage or presence in a public debate with candidates of the Republican or Democratic party. The Libertarian Party is the third largest party in the United States, but you wouldn't know it because it is restricted from participation in the debate process.

Who then do Bible belt Christians side with?

The Tea party group perhaps? Some would say they are only a remanufactured/refurbished Republican group. Being neither R or D myself, I'm not so sure about such a simple evaluation.

I also most strenuously agree with you regarding the policies of the Federal Reserve. The arabs are like an insect nuisance by comparison.

 

[bud02]

You equate Bible belt Christians with the policies of the Republican party and for the most part I agree with you.
For far too long people have voted along party lines and not according to the track record of an individual representative or party policy.

A good example is the current restriction against third party participation in this country. Although third parties are not disallowed by law, they are prevented from open debate in the media; TV, newspapers, magazines, etc.

For example, I am a registered Libertarian. My party believes in small government and a small military among other things. None of our candidates are allowed equal press coverage or presence in a public debate with candidates of the Republican or Democratic party. The Libertarian Party is the third largest party in the United States, but you wouldn't know it because it is restricted from participation in the debate process.

Who then do Bible belt Christians side with?

The Tea party group perhaps? Some would say they are only a remanufactured/refurbished Republican group. Being neither R or D myself, I'm not so sure about such a simple evaluation.

I also most strenuously agree with you regarding the policies of the Federal Reserve. The arabs are like an insect nuisance by comparison.

Well I don't want to start a war but perception is not alway the fact.
The Republican Party came into power after the civil rights movement in 64 and has never looked back. Its largely been the south that went from Dem to Rep over night. I'll post some graphs and a link latter.
My observation about the christian vote is lopsided conservative states have higher divorce rates, murder rates, teen pegnatsies ect. ect. ect.
Not to mention my greatest pev is the televangelist, like Ron Philip, Morris Cerull, Perry Stone, Todd Coontz, and the worst Mike Murdock.

• Kenneth Copeland and Gloria Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries of Newark, Texas;

• Creflo Dollar and Taffi Dollar of World Changers Church International and Creflo Dollar Ministries of College Park, Ga;

• Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church Inc. and Benny Hinn Ministries of Grapevine, Texas;

• Eddie L. Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church and Bishop Eddie Long Ministries of Lithonia, Ga;

• Joyce Meyer and David Meyer of Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Mo; and

• Randy White and ex-wife Paula White of the multiracial Without Walls International Church and Paula White Ministries of Tampa.
• I'll add Joel Osten from Lake Wood TX

There is something very wrong with the bible belt, As I said earlier these people and many more all come "or nearly all " from the south. They have a huge following and its easy to see that they can encourage there sheep to believe most anything. Its a very power full influence. I suppose I am a bit liberal in my view, I understand that laws do not change men or their hearts thats where the problem is. It not in outlawing abortion or baring civel unions between gays that will never change or lead a single person into the message of grace in Jesus. Nor will having these laws in place as they are now compel Christians to presume its OK.

Heres the graphs the first indicates where the vote in the south turned in 64 from Dem to 100% Rep and has stayed their ever since.
My point is rjp34652 that the south made the choice in 64 and then followed threw in 68 right up to today. There is some thing that just doesn't add up in the bible belt.
Link to graphs html http://liberalslikec...org/graphs.html

Continue Pics

 

[andycothran]

Simple inquiry:    How involved with US Politics and Policies should Christians be?
                        

                             Would love responses to this question

America is coming so close to Socialism in the past 20 years or so. Should Christians stand up and speak about what is going on? Is it enough to just pray? With abortions and removal of any referrence to God from the public eye, should Christians just pray that hearts would be changed (those in government). Would the Lord just have us pray or combine it with action?

I'm sure there are many here who are asking the very same questions. I thought it would be good to bring questions and answers out in the open here. Is God still Lord in the U.S.A..?

It depends on what type of action you are thinking of ..Peaceful protests ,use of voting ,  , petitions . boycotts and any other PEACEFUL methods of change are wonderful just and at times can be highly effective . There are some however that will take it to the extreme and cross the line those idiots need to be kept in check ,, I am a firm believer that church and state should always stay separate .That doesn't mean Christians should do nothing but respecting those boundaries are absolutely essential for a democracy to exist .

 

[aspen]

Simple inquiry: How involved with US Politics and Policies should Christians be?

We should be active advocates for the poor and disenfranchised. We should not rally around politicians that are manufacturing hot button issues masquerading as morality, yet actually used to galvanize a base in order to protect the very rich.

Would love responses to this question

America is coming so close to Socialism in the past 20 years or so.

Oh mercy pastor - our country has never seen as much deregulation of essential services like electricity (prices have increased, scandal has increased), mental health services (mental institutions closures, increased homelessness, increased populations of mental ill in prisons) mail service (increased prices), and Wall Street (current economic crises due to poor regulation in the banking industry) in the past thirty years. Where is the socialism? Frankly, pastor, I think you are really worried about secularism, not socialism.

Should Christians stand up and speak about what is going on?

Yes - we should be ashamed of ourselves - societies are judged by the way they take care of their poor and elderly!

Is it enough to just pray?

It is a start - then we need to roll up our sleeves and get to work on some serious reform - the private sector has failed to pick up the ball that Reagan dropped and now we need to make sure the poor / elderly / children are taken care of in this country - enough is enough!

With abortions and removal of any reference to God from the public eye, should Christians just pray that hearts would be changed (those in government).

First, there are worse things that can happen than abortion - if we want to decrease abortion in this country we need to change the culture of adoption in this country and change the laws. The fact is, domestic adoption costs about 20,000 per child! Outrageous!! And, if the majority of Americans celebrated adoptions like the gay community, we would not even have children waiting for homes. We need to get to work.

I'm sure there are many here who are asking the very same questions. I thought it would be good to bring questions and answers out in the open here. Is God still Lord in the U.S.A..?

Thankfully, God is not dependent on useless rhetoric from politicians and the Republican Spin machine at FOX News to be present in the USA. He is here and continuing to call us to love our neighbors through service.

Here is the real shocker for me over the passed 30 years - if someone had told me that a citizen in Australia would have the biggest influence in American politics and the key to the Christian vote - I would have fell over laughing. Well, I would have also been eating my words at this point because no single man has the influence Murdock wields in the country - certainly not the President.

Peace

 

[veteran]

One of the books we were required to read in my college statistics course was 'How To Lie Using Statistics'. I see some of that working going on here against conservative idealism.

The majority of true conservatives live outside the cities among the rural population, and the majority of 'liberal' Leftists live and work within major cities. So look at such proposed stats based on city vs. rural, and the picture between conservatives and liberals changes drastically. There's no way I'm going to believe larger populations in huge cities represent the majority opinion of the rural populations in America. Many of the rural populations are simply not being heard. In the Bush-Gore campaign, the stats showed the majority rural population voted conservative (colored red), while the large city populations voted liberal (colored blue). That shows a huge political divide between the rural population and the large city population.

And where might the majority of abortion clinics exist? In the large cities. And where might the highest murder rates be? In the large cities. And highest rates of teen pregnancy, suicide, divorce, and perversion? Within the largest city populations. The stats simply don't look good for any large major city in America, revealing the greatest problems exist not in rural America, but in the large city populations.

As for the two-party system in America, the lines between liberal and conservative is not at all clearly drawn. There are liberal Republicans just as there's conservative Democrats. Trying to draw a line between them is a waste of time. It's more important to pay attention to how each representative votes on the issues. That's the only way to determine what their real politics is about.

The tea party movement reveals a 'conservative' movement based on principles of the nation's founders, and the group includes both Democrats and Republicans. That's a huge sign of how true Americans among both parties agree in doing something about rooting out anti-constitutionalist socialists and communist Leftists out of office in the U.S.

 

[bud02]

One of the books we were required to read in my college statistics course was 'How To Lie Using Statistics'. I see some of that working going on here against conservative idealism.

The majority of true conservatives live outside the cities among the rural population, and the majority of 'liberal' Leftists live and work within major cities. So look at such proposed stats based on city vs. rural, and the picture between conservatives and liberals changes drastically. There's no way I'm going to believe larger populations in huge cities represent the majority opinion of the rural populations in America. Many of the rural populations are simply not being heard. In the Bush-Gore campaign, the stats showed the majority rural population voted conservative (colored red), while the large city populations voted liberal (colored blue). That shows a huge political divide between the rural population and the large city population.

And where might the majority of abortion clinics exist? In the large cities. And where might the highest murder rates be? In the large cities. And highest rates of teen pregnancy, suicide, divorce, and perversion? Within the largest city populations. The stats simply don't look good for any large major city in America, revealing the greatest problems exist not in rural America, but in the large city populations.

As for the two-party system in America, the lines between liberal and conservative is not at all clearly drawn. There are liberal Republicans just as there's conservative Democrats. Trying to draw a line between them is a waste of time. It's more important to pay attention to how each representative votes on the issues. That's the only way to determine what their real politics is about.

The tea party movement reveals a 'conservative' movement based on principles of the nation's founders, and the group includes both Democrats and Republicans. That's a huge sign of how true Americans among both parties agree in doing something about rooting out anti-constitutionalist socialists and communist Leftists out of office in the U.S.

The point of my comment was the dynamics that the civil rights played in the "now" republican "bible belt", you can't say the change in the way the south voted is a lesson in How To Lie Using Statistics. The vote is a matter of public record, If you believe it is fake then post some information and its source to refute it. The whole snake oil sales men that predominate TV evangelism are also bible belt wonders. If you disagree show some evidence. Nearly all the graphs are based on percentages not whole numbers, they are not the topic but evidence that indicates or begs the question why was the bible belt "Christians" so upset with the civil rights movement, that they completely abandoned the Democratic party after years of almost unanimous support? Like I said something just doesn't add up in the bible belt. Taking into the fact that preachers today completely involve themselves in politics its no wonder the Rep party can count on the souther christian vote, my point or question is, are these Christians? Do they and their state represent christian values? It was the Democratic party that championed the civil rights movement then got dump on for it by the southern bible belt, does that make sense to you?

I see you use the same language other nuts use in the media.

That's a huge sign of how true Americans among both parties agree in doing something about rooting out anti-constitutionalist socialists and communist Leftists out of office in the U.S.

I'm more concerned with rooting out false prophets and those that teach Christ for their own personal gain and means.

As for my view on the Rep party to cut all social benefits and shore up big business, trickle down economics is what Reagan called it. That looks a lot like a big southern mansion on the hill and the trailer park out back for the hired help. I'll clue you into another little vision its already to late, the slave masters have already found our replacements the slave masters have found several billion Chinese slaves, and the bonus is they don't even have to keep them in line, feed them, look at them or deal with their complaints. Pollute their land, subject them to hazardous materials ect ect ect. They live half way around the world have no civil rights and a huge military political machine keeps them all in line. I call them the modern slave Negros. Its the perfect slave solution. And guess what no one cares there Communist as long they work cheaper than we do.Now you tell me is that of the people for the people? Or is it of big business for big business?

 

[veteran]

There is something very wrong with the bible belt, As I said earlier these people and many more all come "or nearly all " from the south. They have a huge following and its easy to see that they can encourage there sheep to believe most anything. Its a very power full influence. I suppose I am a bit liberal in my view, I understand that laws do not change men or their hearts thats where the problem is. It not in outlawing abortion or baring civel unions between gays that will never change or lead a single person into the message of grace in Jesus. Nor will having these laws in place as they are now compel Christians to presume its OK.

Heres the graphs the first indicates where the vote in the south turned in 64 from Dem to 100% Rep and has stayed their ever since.
My point is rjp34652 that the south made the choice in 64 and then followed threw in 68 right up to today. There is some thing that just doesn't add up in the bible belt.

Something very wrong with the Bible Belt? That sounds just like what some New England socialist self-elitist left-wing yankee would say. It even sounds like what an orthodox Phariseic Jew that hates Christianity would say, and many of those just happen to live in New England, especially in cities like New York.

No, the South did not turn Republican overnight in '64. That's a bunch of Pharisee baloney.

The Southern people have stood up against the tearing down of family values by the New England socialst "establishment" controlled by the synagogue of Satan, and that's why they hate the Southern people so much. Communist socialism is detested by the Southern people who are God's people, and that's why the synagogue of Satan hates the South so much. It's only a matter of time when those of the synagogue of Satan will come and bow before our feet in worship to Christ Jesus. It's coming, get ready for it. Thanks for revealing your true purpose in coming to this Forum.

 

[bud02]

Like I said above prove it.
The record of states and votes is pretty easy to gather.
Your nothing but a stick tossed about on the waves of truth crying its not so.

 

[[email protected]]

These are things beyond our control...even those who are in government cannot solve such things. We should strive to support ourselves as best we can in the meantime, and if we have the means to help others, then by all means help them in the best way we can to support those worse off then us. But if we think we need to involve ourselves in politics then we will be fighting a loosing battle.

If not in our control, then whoose?

THEY ARE within the control of somebody. A college professor once taught me that "THEY" are not nameless shapeless entities. THEY have phone numbers, addresses, homes and families just like everyone else. My father used to say that THEY put their pants on one leg at a time like everyone else.

THEY have sold us out.
THEY are prospering at our expense.
THEY are limiting our liberties so that they may press their agenda forward.

These things are NOT beyond our control. With God's help they CAN be fixed.

Trusting in divine providence to help, WE can do all things in Christ who strengthens US.

[/b]Something very wrong with the Bible Belt? That sounds just like what some New England socialist self-elitist left-wing yankee would say. It even sounds like what an orthodox Phariseic Jew that hates Christianity would say, and many of those just happen to live in New England, especially in cities like New York.

No, the South did not turn Republican overnight in '64. That's a bunch of Pharisee baloney.

The Southern people have stood up against the tearing down of family values by the New England socialst "establishment" controlled by the synagogue of Satan, and that's why they hate the Southern people so much. Communist socialism is detested by the Southern people who are God's people, and that's why the synagogue of Satan hates the South so much. It's only a matter of time when those of the synagogue of Satan will come and bow before our feet in worship to Christ Jesus. It's coming, get ready for it. Thanks for revealing your true purpose in coming to this Forum.

Well said.