Christians are mystics - we connect with God with our hearts

[bbyrd009]

Mystical experiences often involves convictions and inspiration to do things.

and emotions, i guess

We are called to "Be still and know that I am God"
That is a very emotional dwelling.

it is?
well, maybe, if one makes it one
isnt emo for me at all though wadr
i would at least consider whether it is not "emotions" that are represented by "woman" in Scripture,
the heart is deceitful above all things, and even
one is taken, and the other left, whenever we make a decision, more or less

in sales we are trained to appeal to the emotions, "you sell the sizzle, not the steak"

He is willing to commune with us, in our hearts

after the heart has been "changed," sure,

27 And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit
I will give them an undivided heart

My son, if your heart is wise

The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks
and make your home on the heights

i mean, on and on

 

[aspen]

What an awesome thread! Thanks for posting

 

[OzSpen]

Wonderful post, and yes I agree we connect with God with our hearts.

Josho,

I agree that Christian conversion leads to a changed heart. But it goes beyond that: 'Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is – his good, pleasing and perfect will' (Rom 12:2 NIV).

How can there be genuine Christian conversion without genuine growth in moving from 'the pattern of this world' to renewal of the mind?

I connect with God through my soul/spirit, heart and mind.

Oz

 

[Josho]

Josho,

I agree that Christian conversion leads to a changed heart. But it goes beyond that: 'Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is – his good, pleasing and perfect will' (Rom 12:2 NIV).

How can there be genuine Christian conversion without genuine growth in moving from 'the pattern of this world' to renewal of the mind?

I connect with God through my soul/spirit, heart and mind.

Oz

This is not what I meant, I actually meant something much deeper, but will still answer you. In the following post you can see what I really meant.

There can be a genuine Christian conversion, as the requirements aren't complicated, if it is a very dramatic instant change, people can be set free quite quickly, of course though I do not expect everyone to change as fast Saul did in the book of Acts. It sometimes takes a new Christian time to move away from the pattern of this world, this however does not mean that "new Christian" is not born again, they are, if they truly accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

Some people would disagree on my position on this, but when someone askes God for forgiveness, believes in the Lord Jesus, and accepts Him as Lord and Saviour of their life, they are Born Again.

What we can do after? Trust that God continues lead those new Believers the right way and pray for them.

 

[Josho]

Josho,

I agree that Christian conversion leads to a changed heart. But it goes beyond that: 'Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is – his good, pleasing and perfect will' (Rom 12:2 NIV).

How can there be genuine Christian conversion without genuine growth in moving from 'the pattern of this world' to renewal of the mind?

I connect with God through my soul/spirit, heart and mind.

Oz

In response to your comment about "connecting the heart to God"

What I meant by "connecting your heart to God" is something much deeper, it's about spending time with God, communing with God, fixing your eyes upon Jesus, practicing the silence, giving God time to clear your mind, giving the Holy Spirit time to refresh you, resting in the Lord.

And these verses summarize it perfectly.

Matthew 11:28-30 - NKJ
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Here is how "the Passion Translation" translates these verses

“Are you weary, carrying a heavy burden? Then come to me. I will refresh your life, for I am your oasis. Simply join your life with mine. Learn my ways and you’ll discover that I’m gentle, humble, easy to please. You will find refreshment and rest in me. For all that I require of you will be pleasant and easy to bear.”

 

[Davy]

There are different uses of the word to mean different things. In traditional use of english as documented in dictionaries

mystic
noun
a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect.
"the poetry of the 16th-century Spanish mystic, St John of the Cross"

This is a western use of the term, relating to a branch of christian practice.

It's still connected to the idea of 'practice'. Remember what our Lord Jesus said about repetitious prayer (Matthew 6:7). And the idea of a 'mystic' is connected to the word 'mysticism'. Can't separate the two ideas because it's essentially about doing 'exercises' to produce a direct spiritual experience.

If Tozer is a protestant mystic, then it can be applied to believers. Unless you think Tozer was not a believer.
I know at some points in my life the idea of God speaking directly to me would make me very worried.

I didn't know him, and I don't have to in order to know what the idea of mysticism is. God speaks to us via a small inner voice, by The Holy Spirit. If we walk by The Spirit, then He will give us a warning nudge when we're getting ready to mess up. It's still up to us to listen to Him and obey though. He will also at times direct us inwardly as to what He wants us to accomplish. This happens not because of anything we do, like practicing long repetitious prayers, or playing holy man. It happens because of His Promise through Faith on His Son. Understanding His Word by The Holy Spirit, and fulfilling the duty He called us for is what is expected of us, not playing religion.

 

[marks]

14 The LORD is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation.
15 Shouts of joy and victory resound in the tents of the righteous: "The LORD's right hand has done mighty things!
16 The LORD's right hand is lifted high; the LORD's right hand has done mighty things!"
Psalm 118:14-16

7 The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I am helped. My heart leaps for joy and I will give thanks to him in song.
8 The LORD is the strength of his people, a fortress of salvation for his anointed one.
Psalm 28:7-8

8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:8-9

26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14:26

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:14

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Rom 8:9

Someone mentioned to me that I was too mystical. It made me think the opposite that some believe being born from God, knowing Jesus is the Messiah is not a mystical experience.
If we are born from an imperishable seed, then this must be something within the spiritual realm, something eternal, something we discover like a baby discovers life. Paul says this

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
2 Cor 5:17

Jesus says this of us

3 I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
John 3:3-6

Paul describes the effect of this change as going from

18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:18

This is a profound change. It is also not a once off event, but rather a growth from a seed, something that starts small and comes to fill every aspect of ones life.

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

We have.

 

[marks]

...our love is exchanged for His love through us...

And I would add that in this exchange, our love also is transformed to become as His.

Not just a handful of happy feelings, rather, that we would lay down our lives for others.

 

[marks]

No man can improve himself into the kingdom of God.

The apostle asked, what do you have that you did not receive?

 

[marks]

but a confusing mixture so our Christian life, service and church services should mimic this mixture.

I think that God does not author confusion. We become confused, but in trusting Jesus we can simplify things for ourselves.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So I cannot find a place where God does not say He is willing to commune with us, in our hearts. Paul says we are temples of the Holy Spirit.
It is hard not therefore to say it is not a bed rock of who we are in Jesus, and He is will to show Himself to us.
God bless you

Ah, yes! This is what I was trying to remember in discussing with @Episkopos regarding walking as Jesus walked.

Jesus told the disciples that all would leave Him, yet He would not be alone, His Father was with Him.

So I ask myself, in what way is Jesus not alone when the disciples are with Him and how does this reflect on how the Father is with Him?

Our relationship with God is more vital, and more real, and more present than our relationships with anyone else we know. God is Always here with me. God Always has His attention on me. His thoughts concerning me are without number. And in His Spirit I am united with Him.

And He walks with me and He talks with me and He tells me I am His Own, and the joy we share as we tarry there . . . may I tarry there forever!

Be it to you according to your faith!

I think this is the heart of Christianity, that being to have an ongoing communion with our Creator, in such a way that we know we are with Him, not alone, though others leave us alone.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So then a person can get a lot of ideas while reading the bible. An analytical person can realize that love is paramount...essential...and go about adding that in as the main building apparatus...well at least in theory. It's a lot easier to get a religious formula right than to actually love others.

Perhaps easier, but I find the false can actually be more difficult.

I find that God has prepared us for a certain thing, that being to live according to what He intended for us. So that as we apply ourselves to be what He wants, then we find that as we move towards it, we are like a hand sliding into a glove, a love-glove, that fits just so.

Try to do something on our own, we may get partway, but we'll get hung up, because we'll find ourselves trying on our own steam. To understand the theory, as you put it, tells what it looks like, and points us in the direction, and as we move in that direction, we find it's not a staircase, rather, an escalator. Now, elevators are fine too, but I find that doing the hard gives stronger construction.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God doesn't need to tell us which socks to put on, should we go to church, resist temptation etc etc etc etc he has already told us in the Bible.

I guess I missed that verse!

 

[marks]

What is difficult to take in, is it hurts, and this is our cross, and forgiveness and gentleness is our response. I was told that of course people cannot do this, not be that self aware, not that gracious. But that was Jesus, that is His way, that is His walk. And it takes time, it takes listening, it takes "Be still and know that I am God", ruling in ones heart.

In the fruit of the Spirit patience and longsuffering and gentleness and love overcome these difficulties.

When we become impatient, or insulted, or feeling victimized, we can know that these are responses of the flesh, and we can both ignore them, and look to the Spirit for correction and growth, knowing that God has just the perfect ways to bring us both.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So then whether we read the bible or/and experience His voice and visitation...it is about the life it brings. Who can discern the difference?

Jesus said...My sheep know My voice.

Amen!

Of course there is a safe way of obedience through humility and fear of the Lord without claiming to be a disciple of Christ. And that is to DO as Jesus says to the best of our own ability...without claiming to be anything. So then we are saved in this way by not judging. The meek will inherit the earth.

But this way is very unpopular. Not so much humility these days.

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Who is qualified to make this claim, and on what basis?

John 1
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Can we really not know that whether we've been born of God?

Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Do we then hear His voice . . . know His voice . . . but not accept what He tells us? That we are children of God?

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is a danger that we will try to reinvent the wheel.

While in my case, at least, the teaching I received for a number of years was so muddled that I really didn't get what God had done for us. When I began to study the Bible in depth myself, what I found was so revolutionary over what I had been taught I found it literally incredible. Except that it is God's Word. And as time went on, the evidence accumulated.

Faith expressing itself through love.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

In response to your comment about "connecting the heart to God"

What I meant by "connecting your heart to God" is something much deeper, it's about spending time with God, communing with God, fixing your eyes upon Jesus, practicing the silence, giving God time to clear your mind, giving the Holy Spirit time to refresh you, resting in the Lord.

And these verses summarize it perfectly.

Matthew 11:28-30 - NKJ
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Here is how "the Passion Translation" translates these verses

“Are you weary, carrying a heavy burden? Then come to me. I will refresh your life, for I am your oasis. Simply join your life with mine. Learn my ways and you’ll discover that I’m gentle, humble, easy to please. You will find refreshment and rest in me. For all that I require of you will be pleasant and easy to bear.”

Josho, perhaps you are not understanding the context of what Jesus was saying. All of Israel at the time of Jesus' first advent were beginning to suffer the visitation of their fathers' sins upon them which was and has been a very heavy burden upon them and still has a little time to run. Jesus was saying that Israel could take the light burden of accepting His light yoke or continue under the heaven burden of the visitation of the iniquities of their fathers during the first two ages of the existence of Israel over the next two ages that the prophecy was applicable to. (Exodus 20:4-6.)

Israel will accept the light yoke on offer from Christ, but not until the full burden of their choice of rejection ends at the end of this present age when the trampling of God's sanctuary and hosts on the earth has run its full course of 2,300 years as Daniel revealed in Daniel 8.

The significance of what Jesus was offering all of Israel during His first Advent was not understood at that time and they had to suffer the indignation of God's displeasure at their continual idolatrous worship until they were prepared to begin to search out God during this present time.

Shalom

 

[Josho]

Josho, perhaps you are not understanding the context of what Jesus was saying. All of Israel at the time of Jesus' first advent were beginning to suffer the visitation of their fathers' sins upon them which was and has been a very heavy burden upon them and still has a little time to run. Jesus was saying that Israel could take the light burden of accepting His light yoke or continue under the heaven burden of the visitation of the iniquities of their fathers during the first two ages of the existence of Israel over the next two ages that the prophecy was applicable to. (Exodus 20:4-6.)

Israel will accept the light yoke on offer from Christ, but not until the full burden of their choice of rejection ends at the end of this present age when the trampling of God's sanctuary and hosts on the earth has run its full course of 2,300 years as Daniel revealed in Daniel 8.

The significance of what Jesus was offering all of Israel during His first Advent was not understood at that time and they had to suffer the indignation of God's displeasure at their continual idolatrous worship until they were prepared to begin to search out God during this present time.

Shalom

Wadr, it does say "all", all includes Gentiles too, we "all" can rest In Christ.

"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[Jay Ross]

Wadr, it does say "all", all includes Gentiles too, we "all" can rest In Christ.

"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

WADR, the context of Jesus' conversation was with the people he was addressing in Matt 11:20-30. Jesus stated a number of time that He had come primarily to the House of Israel and as Such His words were directed towards Israel in this passage. Israel had already entered into the two ages where the heavy yoke burden of the visitation of their iniquities would be upon their necks and Jesus was offering Israel a way of removing that heavy burden from off of their necks, by offering His light yoke for them to wear upon their necks instead.

Now what you are claiming is "true" for today's audience reading the passage where the same offer is available to us, but it was not true when Jesus first uttered these words in the presence of his disciples before He had gone to the Cross.

Shalom

 

[FollowHim]

I was thinking yesterday that our emotional foundations are a real as foundations in our houses.
The most fundamental ones are love for our mother and father. This love is not personal, ie for individuals as such but for the role.
The truth is parents always fail, and we always need to implicitly trust them to survive.

But shut this down, deny it, destroy it, and we destroy ourselves.
Or take our sexuality or gender. So fundamental to who we are. If we deny it, and imagine something different, we undermine basic emotional foundations that then go chaotic. Little wonder folk who open up sexually and define themselves in fluid terms are actually denying themselves and letting emotional tensions create mental illness. Our limitations are truly difficult, but also a privilege, because all humans have them.

Jesus talks about getting our foundations in Him and being real in private, in the closed room, where it is not to an audience, it is literally who we are.
Once Jesus is established everything has a place and order and peace can reign. Nothing needs to get out of proportion, because each emotion triggers an appropriate response, because Jesus is our anchor. In some ways the weaker one is, the easier it is to establish and learn to know what is going on.

Someone very close to me has no anchor, and so lives on the emotions she thinks others are having, which then defines what she should feel.
So painting your front door is not because it needs doing but to show off, for impact etc. For me a front door is that, and if it looks nice that is a plus. I hope my neighbours know me and not the front door, because I am so much more than a front door.

But if you do not know yourself and you are your front door, just an impression, then things get turned upside down.
It used to be poverty broke the poor down to rely on others, and the rich do not care, so go so off the rails it cannot be hidden, but the middle class can pretend and lie, and be hidden enough to never find out reality. And sadly this is the biggest growth in society, so little wonder lostness and silence is spreading.

For some christians are just the statements of faith, and that defines them. A little wealth and they are the front door people, and you will never know them beyond the front door, because they literally have no clue who they are, and are terrified someone else might find out.

So emotional foundations are essential as well as being able to talk to them. God bless you