Christians, Atheists & Agnostics

[Confused-by-Christianity]

Atheists, agnostics - share your experiences and opinions on God, Christianity and Christians.

Whats it like?

What do Christians represent to you?
Love? Hate? Violence? Mercy?

 

[Confused-by-Christianity]

Story One:
I lived in a town for a short time. The people there were all very christian. They spoke about hell a lot and were unwavering in their beliefs. They believed a lot of people were going to hell. MTV was considered satanic. One guy there was gay, he was despised and generally an outcast. He did come to church but it was tense him being there. There was serious poverty in the neighbourhood - the christians tended to ignore this and attributed it to basically laziness, unwillingness to accept Christianity and the results of their own choices.

Story Two:
I lived in a very christian town. The christians there always talked about love. Being patient with difficult people. They were inclusive and tended towards wishing to mentor those who struggled with life (often at their own expense). They were full of compassion and mercy. They made great efforts to get on with others and do good deeds.

 

[amadeus]

Story One:
I lived in a town for a short time. The people there were all very christian. They spoke about hell a lot and were unwavering in their beliefs. They believed a lot of people were going to hell. MTV was considered satanic. One guy there was gay, he was despised and generally an outcast. He did come to church but it was tense him being there. There was serious poverty in the neighbourhood - the christians tended to ignore this and attributed it to basically laziness, unwillingness to accept Christianity and the results of their own choices.

Story Two:
I lived in a very christian town. The christians there always talked about love. Being patient with difficult people. They were inclusive and tended towards wishing to mentor those who struggled with life (often at their own expense). They were full of compassion and mercy. They made great efforts to get on with others and do good deeds.

Your story number Two in my experience would had to be a very small town indeed. I have yet to encounter one very much like that.

My paternal grandmother was a real Christian lady who loved everyone and I never saw her miss doing, or trying to do, the right things. [Of course I did not know her when she was young.] But... she was one of the most Jesus like persons I have ever known. With her own family [not me as I was displaced to California and was only a periodic visitor to Oklahoma] she taught them from what I could see the best way that she the best way that she could to live for God as she did. While she lived they all did pretty well although there were some rough spots especially when she was not around. When she died gradually the creeping worldliness which was already underway in her home church began to gain ground in her immediate family. As small as it was, more and more it was stumbling away from its similarities to your Story Two. That was only a family. Not a town.

What the unbeliever or doubter or atheist or agnostic or other sees really depends upon their own previous experience as well as what they are really looking for when they come looking.

 

[Confused-by-Christianity]

Your story number Two in my experience would had to be a very small town indeed. I have yet to encounter one very much like that.

My paternal grandmother was a real Christian lady who loved everyone and I never saw her miss doing, or trying to do, the right things. [Of course I did not know her when she was young.] But... she was one of the most Jesus like persons I have ever known. With her own family [not me as I was displaced to California and was only a periodic visitor to Oklahoma] she taught them from what I could see the best way that she the best way that she could to live for God as she did. While she lived they all did pretty well although there were some rough spots especially when she was not around. When she died gradually the creeping worldliness which was already underway in her home church began to gain ground in her immediate family. As small as it was, more and more it was stumbling away from its similarities to your Story Two. That was only a family. Not a town.

What the unbeliever or doubter or atheist or agnostic or other sees really depends upon their own previous experience as well as what they are really looking for when they come looking.

Beautiful story about your grandmother (well the first bit I mean)
Thank you

 

[Justadude]

Atheists, agnostics - share your experiences and opinions on God, Christianity and Christians.

Whats it like?

What do Christians represent to you?
Love? Hate? Violence? Mercy?

I don't think the term "god" is meaningfully defined enough to be able to say if any exist. I see religion as mostly a holdover of primitive man's way of explaining the world around him. Why did that volcano erupt? The gods. What caused that earthquake? The gods. Why did we get such a great harvest this year? The gods.

As for Christians, given that there's hundreds of millions of 'em, they're pretty much like any other large group of people, with some being very nice, others being very terrible, and everything in between.

I do think though that Christianity in the US is taking a rather bizarre turn lately. As the more "normal" denominations shrink, the "crazies" become more prominent. I don't know how that'll play out though. Maybe as the faith gets increasingly associated with crazy and hateful ideas, fewer people will want to join it and eventually it'll fade away into obscurity like so many other religions in the past. Or maybe it'll go in a completely different direction. I guess we'll find out!

 

[amadeus]

I don't think the term "god" is meaningfully defined enough to be able to say if any exist. I see religion as mostly a holdover of primitive man's way of explaining the world around him. Why did that volcano erupt? The gods. What caused that earthquake? The gods. Why did we get such a great harvest this year? The gods.

As for Christians, given that there's hundreds of millions of 'em, they're pretty much like any other large group of people, with some being very nice, others being very terrible, and everything in between.

I do think though that Christianity in the US is taking a rather bizarre turn lately. As the more "normal" denominations shrink, the "crazies" become more prominent. I don't know how that'll play out though. Maybe as the faith gets increasingly associated with crazy and hateful ideas, fewer people will want to join it and eventually it'll fade away into obscurity like so many other religions in the past. Or maybe it'll go in a completely different direction. I guess we'll find out!

What will fade out and die is all that is false, all that is dead, all that is unreal. Perhaps that doesn't leave much, but you need to have God's perspective, which might be difficult for you now.

A lot people, as I see it, claiming to be on the road are not really there at all:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14



They pretty follow the majority, which turns out to be the "broad way"!

 

[Justadude]

What will fade out and die is all that is false, all that is dead, all that is unreal.

Yep, and I figure eventually Christianity will fade out. Not in anything near my lifetime, but eventually.

Perhaps that doesn't leave much, but you need to have God's perspective, which might be difficult for you now.

I don't even know what "have God's perspective" means. I thought God was beyond our understanding, but here you're telling me I need to see things through this God's eyes?

That's always struck me as a fundamental paradox in Christianity (and some other religions). On one hand we're told things like "God's ways are not our ways", "God works in mysterious ways", and countless metaphors about how us trying to understand God's mind is like an ant trying to understand ours. But then the same people will then proceed to tell everyone what God is, what God wants, what God thinks, how God operates, etc.

A lot people, as I see it, claiming to be on the road are not really there at all:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14

Every Christian with "unique" beliefs likes to quote those verses.

They pretty follow the majority, which turns out to be the "broad way"!

So the weirder and more unique the better?

 

[Heart2Soul]

I don't think the term "god" is meaningfully defined enough to be able to say if any exist. I see religion as mostly a holdover of primitive man's way of explaining the world around him. Why did that volcano erupt? The gods. What caused that earthquake? The gods. Why did we get such a great harvest this year? The gods.

As for Christians, given that there's hundreds of millions of 'em, they're pretty much like any other large group of people, with some being very nice, others being very terrible, and everything in between.

I do think though that Christianity in the US is taking a rather bizarre turn lately. As the more "normal" denominations shrink, the "crazies" become more prominent. I don't know how that'll play out though. Maybe as the faith gets increasingly associated with crazy and hateful ideas, fewer people will want to join it and eventually it'll fade away into obscurity like so many other religions in the past. Or maybe it'll go in a completely different direction. I guess we'll find out!

Did you know that the first church that Jesus established with himself as the cornerstone lasted almost 5 centuries before divisions started taking place....The view you get of Christians/Christianity will vary from church to church, denomination to denomination....Today there are over 42,000 different denominations that claim to be of the Christian Faith....and
[FYI...Christian is a word used by the scorners and mockers who slandered Jesus' followers...the word was intended to be an insult (Christians are “those of Christ” (οἱ τοῦ Χριστοῦ) (i.e., “Christ’s);2 they belong to Christ, as his possessions, because Christians are “slaves of Jesus Christ” (δοῦλοι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ).3 Of course, this is why Jesus Christ is known as our “lord,” or Greek κύριος, literally “master” (as in slave-master). Therefore, the words Christianus and Χριστιανός imply slavery. For this reason, these words were applied to Christians by non-Christians as a derogatory epithet, for the condition of servitude (slavery) was ignominious. However, believers in Christ cherished the epithet because it was a honor to be slaves of Christ, unlike other masters.]......
The churches you see today are far from the original Church the Jesus established....and the type of Christian you meet typically reflects what denomination they are from...(if you get my drift)....


If I were you I would take my eyes of mankind....because man is always going to fall short of the righteousness of Christ.....and instead look at Jesus...He never fails you, Never leaves you, He came to earth to "walk" in your shoes for you in perfection without sin....He is the one to look at....if you keep looking at man you are following a weak god.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Justadude here is your church history
What Happened To The Christian Church In The First five centuries of Christianity?
As all historians have stated that the Christian Church survived the Roman persecution and continued to exist afterwards. The church lived as one church with one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:5), common dogmas, and very closed rituals throughout the whole world for about five centuries. There were no denominations or sects in the Christian church. Churches at that time were named after a few big cities in the world not because of differences in faith, but merely to make administration of the churches achievable.

The sad division between the churches took place in year 451 AD in the Chalcedon Council. In this council, bishops representing churches from all over the world assembled to discuss matters related to the person of Christ. At the end of the meeting, a sharp division occurred among these churches. The Oriental Orthodox Churches decided on continuing to follow the same faith as it was delivered from Christ and His disciples, and these churches continue to do so until today. These churches are the Coptic Orthodox Church (Egypt), the Syrian Orthodox Church (Syria), the Indian Orthodox Church (India), The Ethiopian Orthodox Church (Ethiopia), and The Armenian Church (Armenia). The other churches decided to be in the other camp, let us refer to them here as the Western Churches.

The Western Churches split again in 1054 AD into the ‘Roman Catholic Church’ and ‘Eastern Orthodox Churches’ because of many heresies that crept into the Roman Catholic Church. One heresy says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, which contradicts what Christ says that the Holy Spirit ‘proceeds from the Father’ (John 15:26). Although for some readers this might not mean a lot, however, the church shouldn’t change the divine faith. The problem is once a church starts giving its members the permission to change the faith, changes would happen again and over. Then, another heresy called for the universal Roman papal supremacy over the whole world started, followed by other deviations from the original Christian teaching.
The group of the Eastern Orthodox Churches decided at that time to [hgby1] detach itself from the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches today include nineteen churches, among them: The Greek Orthodox Church, The Russian Orthodox Church, and The Romanian Orthodox Church.
After this schism the Roman Catholic Church in Europe adopted other heresies and suffered from corruptions. The Catholic Church appeared to forget their Christian mission and started to have political ambitions. The church wanted authority over the state in Europe. All these changes happened while the Oriental Orthodox Churches were isolated from all these events and kept preserving the faith and dogma as were delivered from the Apostles of our Lord and recorded by the early fathers of the church.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Justadude
Second: Why Did The Reformation Take Place?

In the few centuries preceding the Reformation, the historians said that the Roman Church in Europe suffered a severe deviation from the truth in both the ecclesiastical life and in the dogma. Corruption crept into the church and the clergy forgot their pastoral responsibilities. Instead, they looked after their own personal pleasures.

Starting from the eleventh century, the history of the Church of Rome is full of persecution, inquisitions, and heresies. Burning heretics at the stake and using torture were common methods to deal with the heretics. Here, the word heresy at that time was used to refer to a false teaching related to the principle of Christian faith or it could refer to an act the church did not favor, as in the case of William Tyndale, who was strangled and burned in 1536 because he translated the New Testament into English. The word heresy was also used to refer to an opinion of matters related more to science or philosophy than to Christianity, as in the case of Galileo Galilei (1564-1642), who was tried by the Inquisition of Rome and forced to spend the last eight years of his life under house arrest because of his scientific evidences that proved the earth revolves around the sun.1

Renaissance in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries revived the value of the classical Greek and Roman writings, which included, among others, the Bible, and the writings of the early Fathers of the Church. Intellectual people at that time started reading the Bible and comparing what they read in the Bible and in the writings Fathers of the Church to the living reality of the Roman Catholic Church and concluded that ‘Catholicism differed from the church of the New Testament in doctrine, morals, and administration.’ 2 Some called for ‘reform in head and member.[hgby2]

One example that shows how corrupted the Catholic Church was at that time is the story of Jan Hus, a disciple of John Wyclif. He considered leaving the Catholic Church as an act of honoring Christ and the gospel. Yes, to that extent the educated people started refusing the church and its corruption. The Intellectual people refused the moral corruption in the life of the clergy and the heresies of the church.

Therefore, as soon as Martin Luther (1483-1546 AD) announced his disputation on indulgences and nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Roman Church in Wittenberg, the news spread like wildfire throughout Europe. Later on, this wildfire led to separation from Catholicism into many branches over the years of what is known today as Protestantism.

People in the Middle Ages in Europe had a very real dread of the period of punishment in purgatory and hell, which were graphically portrayed in the church. Based on the teachings of the indulgence of the Catholic Church, the Church controlled both destinations. Unfortunately, facing all the fears of both, the Church offered selling indulgences, instead of offering Christ as the Savior. These indulgences were hard to pay by the poor and a source of distress for the rich. As a result, when Reformation started, people hurried to join it to get rid of the nightmare of both the purgatory and hell.

Salvation and grace were almost forgotten topics in the Catholic Church at that time. Of course, in the middle of the corruption there were very faithful clergies and laymen who led good Christian lives. But, as usual, most human beings forget the good and remember the bad, even inflate the bad to make it look worse than the reality.

In reaction to the church that forgot its own mission and tried to control the life and destination of everyone using all methods including physical death, the reformation movement completely separated itself from the church and denied most of what belonged to the church. People had had it with the Catholic Church and they were eager to get rid of all that belonged to it. Therefore, they put all their efforts, derived by psychological and social impulses, to refute all what the Roman Catholic Church called for and believed in, especially those things that were done by the clergy. They refused priesthood because of the corruption of the clergy and subsequently denied all work that required a priest. Since the priests administered all the sacraments, Protestant denominations refused most, if not all, of the sacraments.

So, Protestants refused the sacraments, the intercession of saints, many rituals, and other parts of the tradition that were delivered from Christ and His apostles, not because of biblical, traditional, or historical reasons, but rather because of inner- psychological, historical, and social reasons. Then, later on they tried to rationalize them by finding biblical verses that supported their beliefs. In a severe reaction to the forgotten grace of God in the Roman Catholic Church teachings and its full concentration on human work, the Protestants based all their teachings on salvation, grace, and complete refusal of human work.

While these corruptions and conflicts happened in Europe, the Christian Oriental Churches in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East continued to preserve the original teachings and spirituality of the early church. They had no relationship with what happened to the Catholic Church during this period. Moreover, they condemned the heresies of the Roman Catholic Church and its deviations from the original teachings of the early church. These churches, especially the Coptic Orthodox Church, felt that they should act as the guardians of faith. Therefore, we find that the Coptic Orthodox Church takes pride in its adherence to the apostolic teachings as were received directly from Christ and handed down over the centuries until it reached us today, without changes or additions. The Coptic Orthodox Church believes that ‘the faith was once for all delivered by the saints’ (Jude 1: 2,3), and the Lord along with His apostles asked the church to observe, reserve, and guard that faith.[1] [hgby3]

 

[Justadude]

@Heart2Soul thanks for posting. I'm quite familiar with pretty much all of that history and anti-Catholic sentiment among some Protestants. Heck, the church I was raised in taught us that Catholicism was a cult!

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Heart2Soul thanks for posting. I'm quite familiar with pretty much all of that history and anti-Catholic sentiment among some Protestants. Heck, the church I was raised in taught us that Catholicism was a cult!

It wasn't intended to be anti-catholic...but the Roman Catholic Church is basically where all other religions split from...even protestants.

and here was my main point...
If I were you I would take my eyes of mankind....because man is always going to fall short of the righteousness of Christ.....and instead look at Jesus...He never fails you, Never leaves you, He came to earth to "walk" in your shoes for you in perfection without sin....He is the one to look at....if you keep looking at man you are following a weak god.

see I have been hurt by pastors many times and I cried out to God and asked Him how can this be? and that's when He told me the same thing I just shared with you. Even preachers fail....sometimes more than others.

 

[Justadude]

It wasn't intended to be anti-catholic...but the Roman Catholic Church is basically where all other religions split from...even protestants.

Understood.

and here was my main point...
If I were you I would take my eyes of mankind....because man is always going to fall short of the righteousness of Christ.....and instead look at Jesus...He never fails you, Never leaves you, He came to earth to "walk" in your shoes for you in perfection without sin....He is the one to look at....if you keep looking at man you are following a weak god.

see I have been hurt by pastors many times and I cried out to God and asked Him how can this be? and that's when He told me the same thing I just shared with you. Even preachers fail....sometimes more than others.

I'm not sure what "look at Jesus" means.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Understood.


I'm not sure what "look at Jesus" means.

Look at how He lived....He lived by example and we are to follow that example....also to look at His Word....His Word is Truth....Truth always sets us free of whatever we are bound to and deceived by. ....most importantly He gave us 2 commandments...Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself...if you do those 2 things then you fulfill all the law and commandments.
Love is so perfect.....it never fails....it is so powerful...more powerful than atomic bombs....

God Bless

 

[Justadude]

Look at how He lived....He lived by example and we are to follow that example

We only have accounts of an extremely tiny portion of his life, and even those accounts are questionable.

....also to look at His Word....His Word is Truth....Truth always sets us free of whatever we are bound to and deceived by. ....most importantly He gave us 2 commandments...Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself...if you do those 2 things then you fulfill all the law and commandments.
Love is so perfect.....it never fails....it is so powerful...more powerful than atomic bombs....

God Bless

If only more people would "love your neighbor as yourself", the world would certainly be a better place. Unfortunately, I don't see that practiced very often, including by Christians here in this forum!

 

[Confused-by-Christianity]

We only have accounts of an extremely tiny portion of his life, and even those accounts are questionable.


If only more people would "love your neighbor as yourself", the world would certainly be a better place. Unfortunately, I don't see that practiced very often, including by Christians here in this forum!

You can trust love ?
You know if someone is loving or unloving ?
Generally (there will be exceptions where someone seems loving but is horrible or seems horrible but is actually doing you a favour)

 

[Heart2Soul]

You can trust love ?
You know if someone is loving or unloving ?
Generally (there will be exceptions where someone seems loving but is horrible or seems horrible but is actually doing you a favour)

To love someone as yourself is impossible to fake....now if you don't love yourself then there is a problem...need to work on healing and forgiveness....of yourself and of those who hurt you.

 

[amadeus]

Yep, and I figure eventually Christianity will fade out. Not in anything near my lifetime, but eventually.

Everything that is not of God will fade out. This includes much of what men call "Christianity".

I don't even know what "have God's perspective" means. I thought God was beyond our understanding, but here you're telling me I need to see things through this God's eyes?

That you cannot see through His eyes is the trouble. Therefore in the things of God you are blind. That you even express interest by coming to this forum and conversing means that you have a glimmer, a sliver of light, but unless you want to approach the light to get a real vision, when your time is up, there will be nothing else. Some will say you will be in an unending torment, but I don't believe that.

That's always struck me as a fundamental paradox in Christianity (and some other religions). On one hand we're told things like "God's ways are not our ways", "God works in mysterious ways", and countless metaphors about how us trying to understand God's mind is like an ant trying to understand ours. But then the same people will then proceed to tell everyone what God is, what God wants, what God thinks, how God operates, etc.

Believers are really at different places with God. Their vision ranges from barely to seeing to face to face clarity. What they see also depend upon what they need to see in order to fulfill their own part in God's plan. As long as you remain effectively on the outside trying to look in, it remain paradoxical to you.

Every Christian with "unique" beliefs likes to quote those verses.

So the weirder and more unique the better?

Until and if you have a real vision from God of His plan, much of what is shared with you will seem unique and weird. The scripture speaks of a 'peculiar people'.

 

[Waiting on him]

Everything that is not of God will fade out. This includes much of what men call "Christianity".


That you cannot see through His eyes is the trouble. Therefore in the things of God you are blind. That you even express interest by coming to this forum and conversing means that you have a glimmer, a sliver of light, but unless you want to approach the light to get a real vision, when your time is up, there will be nothing else. Some will say you will be in an unending torment, but I don't believe that.

Believers are really at different places with God. Their vision ranges from barely to seeing to face to face clarity. What they see also depend upon what they need to see in order to fulfill their own part in God's plan. As long as you remain effectively on the outside trying to look in, it remain paradoxical to you.


Until and if you have a real vision from God of His plan, much of what is shared with you will seem unique and weird. The scripture speaks of a 'peculiar people'.

Also says it is foolishness to those perishing.

So two things are in view here how the gospel is viewed and whom is perishing.

 

[Waiting on him]

Everything that is not of God will fade out. This includes much of what men call "Christianity".


That you cannot see through His eyes is the trouble. Therefore in the things of God you are blind. That you even express interest by coming to this forum and conversing means that you have a glimmer, a sliver of light, but unless you want to approach the light to get a real vision, when your time is up, there will be nothing else. Some will say you will be in an unending torment, but I don't believe that.

Believers are really at different places with God. Their vision ranges from barely to seeing to face to face clarity. What they see also depend upon what they need to see in order to fulfill their own part in God's plan. As long as you remain effectively on the outside trying to look in, it remain paradoxical to you.


Until and if you have a real vision from God of His plan, much of what is shared with you will seem unique and weird. The scripture speaks of a 'peculiar people'.

I don't believe non believers are tormented either. As to if Christianity will disappear doubt it, but just some dude I'm certain will fizzle out,